Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
tandem canopy size

 

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aerialcameraman  (D 27629)

Dec 12, 2010, 5:55 PM
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tandem canopy size Can't Post

I'm a tandem instructor and have been for 3 years. I have done skydive's with very light people and very heavy people ( not exceeding 225lbs). The new canopy, the firebolt 328, I beleave is the size, is very small. It is getting small for a tandem canopy. It is not to far off our largest student canopy, which only holds one person, not two. What do you other instructors think ?


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 12, 2010, 6:43 PM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the definition of "small" when pertaining to a tandem canopy has more to do with wingloading, and instructor experience/ability than anything else.

I'm pretty comfortable taking up to my max weight limit (235) on a 330.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 12, 2010, 6:50 PM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

Hard to say without jumping one, but I LOVE the Icarus/Precision 330's.


koppel  (F License)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:11 PM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

My two favourites are the Icarus Jyro 300 and the Icarus TFX 285

Most of the work horses where I am are 330 withs 6+2 which are easy all day long and forgiving on the arms


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 13, 2010, 6:31 AM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering the Icarus 330 is the best all round work horse on the market, some will disagree and many will agree. NO, a 328 is not too small.

It seem with a number like 328, it is out there specifically to compete with Icarus 330.

Drop a couple of feet of the size and it is instantly cooler, no? Laugh.

I will take any sized customer on a 330.

A 400 is to big, a 389 is too big....

A student canopy over 300 sq.ft is too big...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 13, 2010, 6:55 AM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

 
A big student canopy is flown by a big student, possibly on their first jump. A small tandem canopy is flown by a TI, hpoefully not on their first tandem.

Canopy size as related to safety all comes down to the pilot. Being realistic about their abilities and the conditions they're jumping in are the two key features that promote safe use of small canopies. If you can account for those, small canopies can be safely jumped.


Dokeman  (D License)

Dec 13, 2010, 2:39 PM
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Re: [davelepka] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

Im 200lbs and fly icarus 330's. I routinely take people up to 240lbs without and problems. i think they are great. Defiantly the best all around workhorse.


aerialcameraman  (D 27629)

Dec 13, 2010, 4:19 PM
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Re: [Dokeman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just seeing what all your thoughts were. I never have jumped any tandem canopy but the sigma 370 and icarus 400 . I would love to try one of the smaller ones since you say there better on the arms. I broke my elbows on a fall off a roof. So it is sometimes a struggle to pull the toodles all the way down so I start the flare a little early. I usually land on my feet. Im a canopy pilot and love to fly my canopies. I jump a velo and katana and have almost 2000 jumps. I know fast I just wanted others opinions since I've never jumped one under 370


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 13, 2010, 9:19 PM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

How many tandem jumps do you have?


aerialcameraman  (D 27629)

Dec 14, 2010, 4:08 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to look. I have had it for 3 yrs. I work at a smaller dz but we stay pretty busy just having 2 of us. I would say if I had to guess. Would be 500 or so. Maybe higher. Im multi rated so that's not all I do


aerialcameraman  (D 27629)

Dec 14, 2010, 6:32 AM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I can count I have 700 +


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 14, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as I can count I have 700 +

Better update your profile before all the 'Super_on_line_good_guys' Rheme you for getting a tandem rating at 300 jumps...

hahaLaugh


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 15, 2010, 5:36 AM
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

anything bigger than 360 is waste of fabric.
but seems like some TI needs every bit of it.
some TI really get their tandem rating at 500 jumps you know..


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 15, 2010, 6:48 AM
Post #14 of 82 (4212 views)
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you have the skill, and experience to be trying a 330ish, of course that's said without seeing you fly.

It's a unique skill we have t have, build, and master, learning to fly a different wingloading on the same canopy every jump.

Remember the same concerns about downsizing apply. Faster reactions to the same input, higher speed, change in recovery arc.

Also keep in mind there's not always a good reason to be jumping a 330. Unless you're doing 1000 tandems a year, it's probably not the right tool for taking the big boys. It's also may not be the right teaching canopy for advanced tandems.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Dec 15, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything bigger than 360 is waste of fabric.
but seems like some TI needs every bit of it.
some TI really get their tandem rating at 500 jumps you know..

I Disagree, a Canopy is a tool (in this case) to get a pair of individuals, safely to the ground.

A 330 may be good for one wing loading and a 400 good for another. A T-I should be picking the right tool for the job and adjusting to every individual students needs.

Matt


Abedy  (D 10153)

Dec 15, 2010, 9:35 AM
Post #16 of 82 (4190 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anything bigger than 360 is waste of fabric.
but seems like some TI needs every bit of it.
...
Yeah, you're THE MAN.
Reminds me more than a little of this thread at WO Mad

Our workhorses here are EZ 384 by Paratec (the EZ stands for elliptical zero-porosity). They require some effort when it comes to flaring but are very reliable and work both on low-wind and high-wind days very reasonable. The new Twin Century tandem canopy by Paratec is uhm... 360 sqft AFAIK and easier to steer and flare, but as long as the old EZs do, they are used. Angelic


kmills0705  (D 21696)

Dec 28, 2010, 10:22 AM
Post #17 of 82 (4049 views)
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Re: [aerialcameraman] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I am flying the SET 400 and SET 366 and prefer the smaller. I am 140... when I take another smaller female we very much underload the tandem canopy.


bart  (F 670)

Dec 28, 2010, 2:47 PM
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Re: [koppel] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I have not jumped the 285 but would love to give it a go. However I have some experience on the 300's and if given the choice I would not fly anything bigger. The 330's are an awesome canopy too. Most DZ down here seem to run them with tandem pilots I know up to 110+ kg. and everyone loves them. I actually dont see any reason to go any bigger. All our new tandem pilots at our company jump them with no problem. I'm only 70 kg so not the biggest tandem master out there. But I have jumped the 300 with up to 110kg and they still have plenty of flare!! Single or double toggle set up they still have one of the lightest toggle pressures out there. To me for the smaller tandem pilot is the best canopy on the market. And I would only buy the NZ one. Wink


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jan 5, 2011, 5:05 PM
Post #19 of 82 (3883 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
anything bigger than 360 is waste of fabric.
but seems like some TI needs every bit of it.
some TI really get their tandem rating at 500 jumps you know..

I Disagree, a Canopy is a tool (in this case) to get a pair of individuals, safely to the ground.

A 330 may be good for one wing loading and a 400 good for another. A T-I should be picking the right tool for the job and adjusting to every individual students needs.

Matt

I love the 285 and the 300, but i do believe the 330 is the best all round work horse. The 364's come in handy occasionally but anything bigger than that is too big i reckon.

Keep in mind the bigger the canopy the more it will be affected by turbulence, and a big canopy lightly loaded is more likely do injure someone than a smaller canopy heavilly loaded.

Remember the more forward speed the better the performance and landing


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 6, 2011, 7:12 AM
Post #20 of 82 (3847 views)
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Re: [swoopgaz] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
anything bigger than 360 is waste of fabric.
but seems like some TI needs every bit of it.
some TI really get their tandem rating at 500 jumps you know..

I Disagree, a Canopy is a tool (in this case) to get a pair of individuals, safely to the ground.

A 330 may be good for one wing loading and a 400 good for another. A T-I should be picking the right tool for the job and adjusting to every individual students needs.

Matt

I love the 285 and the 300, but i do believe the 330 is the best all round work horse. The 364's come in handy occasionally but anything bigger than that is too big i reckon.

Keep in mind the bigger the canopy the more it will be affected by turbulence, and a big canopy lightly loaded is more likely do injure someone than a smaller canopy heavilly loaded.

Remember the more forward speed the better the performance and landing

I have spoken to numerous people and combined with my experience, I believe the last line you wrote is a myth in regards to ALL canopies.

Yes, certain models are designed in such a way they handle better in higher loadings and thus are faster. SO those canopies will need to be utilized as you wrote.

Canopies are tools, no single canopy will work for ALL loads and conditions. AS Instructors we need to be able to select the right tool and keep our students safe first and foremost.

All canopies are effected by turbulence. Smaller ones "zip" through faster and bigger ones "truck" through slower. The trade offs are the smaller canopies have less exposure and less time to react to it. The Bigger canopies more exposure and more time to react.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 10, 2011, 3:40 AM
Post #21 of 82 (3784 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Canopies are tools, no single canopy will work for ALL loads and conditions.

An Icarus 330 will perform for all customers that are within the operational limits of the equipment, and will perform in all winds that are suitable for operations.

Others will also.

So I find that statement to be a little far fetched.

Sometimes the winds at 3-4 k are stronger than 25-30 knots while the landing conditions are less then 15 knots.

A smaller canopy will help you alot in these conditions.

Nobody (in their right mind) enjoys going backwards.

A 365 or 389 etc etc. are too big for some conditions that are operable, at least for me (75kg) anyway.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 10, 2011, 3:41 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 12, 2011, 7:11 AM
Post #22 of 82 (3688 views)
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Re: [rhys] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Canopies are tools, no single canopy will work for ALL loads and conditions.

An Icarus 330 will perform for all customers that are within the operational limits of the equipment, and will perform in all winds that are suitable for operations.

Others will also.

So I find that statement to be a little far fetched.

Sometimes the winds at 3-4 k are stronger than 25-30 knots while the landing conditions are less then 15 knots.

A smaller canopy will help you alot in these conditions.

Nobody (in their right mind) enjoys going backwards.

A 365 or 389 etc etc. are too big for some conditions that are operable, at least for me (75kg) anyway.

Thank You for Confirming my point, no single Canopy will work for ALL conditions.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Jan 14, 2011, 11:15 PM
Post #23 of 82 (3600 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

 
What is your point?

no canopy can perform in 50 knots ground speed or with a 400lb passenger and a 300lb instructor?

You lost me there bro?

I am a small TM and I can take up to an 280lb passenger. Being in New Zealand I can also legally take a 70 lb child.

I will use the same canopy for these in all conditions from 0 knots to 25 knots. these are our operating limits. and the canopies we have will work well in all those conditions.

What is your point?


(This post was edited by rhys on Jan 14, 2011, 11:17 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 15, 2011, 11:39 AM
Post #24 of 82 (3561 views)
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Re: [rhys] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

Canopies are tools, no single canopy will work for ALL loads and conditions.

Same point I made earlier and same point you echoed. Stop basing every thing in skydiving in only what you do.

Matt


jumpdude17  (D License)

Feb 18, 2011, 3:00 PM
Post #25 of 82 (3380 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] tandem canopy size [In reply to] Can't Post

I am new TI and am jumping 365 icarus but want a smaller canopy. i heard there are icarus 300 and performs better in winds cause of better wing loading. also you can swoop better and get more stand up landings. do you think it is ok to swoop your tandem for better landing??


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