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Reserve total packed

 

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Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Dec 11, 2010, 6:52 PM
Post #1 of 93 (3068 views)
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Reserve total packed Can't Post

Wow!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgSVIryvtw

Shocked


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 11, 2010, 9:18 PM
Post #2 of 93 (2968 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In the video:

A table total is shown.

The lead seal can be seen pulled into the top grommet. Jumper thinks the seal thread was routed through the eye of the closing loop.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 11, 2010, 9:21 PM
Post #3 of 93 (2963 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Shocked


Hvance

Dec 11, 2010, 9:21 PM
Post #4 of 93 (2963 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah someone posted this a few months back. It's scary.. Unsure


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 11, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #5 of 93 (2953 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see how that could have been accidently passed through the closing loop... you would have to try to put it through there.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 11, 2010, 10:03 PM
Post #6 of 93 (2941 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't see how that could have been accidently passed through the closing loop... you would have to try to put it through there.

I'd agree. I think maybe some rigger thought that the Seal would stay in place better that way... (Well, I guess they were right about that..Unimpressed)


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 11, 2010, 10:06 PM
Post #7 of 93 (2939 views)
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Re: [Unstable] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I don't see how that could have been accidently passed through the closing loop... you would have to try to put it through there.

I'd agree. I think maybe some rigger thought that the Seal would stay in place better that way... (Well, I guess they were right about that..Unimpressed)

Seals aren't hard to place... its harder to press the seal than it is to place it.

I dont know how the hell he would have passed the seal thread through the closing loop without some sort of needle...


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Post #8 of 93 (2923 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I dont know how the hell he would have passed the seal thread through the closing loop without some sort of needle...


Every Now and then I'll pack a reserve where the rigger before me put stupid loop ~ you know, where the loop is 1/2 length of the closing loop itself? (I don't consider that a big no-no as more I consider it just generally bad form). If you made a "stupid-loop" as I have described, I can actually see it being pretty easy.


spootch  (C License)

Dec 11, 2010, 10:54 PM
Post #9 of 93 (2913 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a gap under the pin, as wide as the pin, that continually gets smaller till you get to the junction in the finger trap. it is possible to pass thread under the pin without a needle.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 11, 2010, 10:54 PM
Post #10 of 93 (2913 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

**If we can wait until Wednesday or Thursday, I'm going to try to recreate this malfunction with a rig I have.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 11, 2010, 11:52 PM
Post #11 of 93 (2888 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Most riggers here do not use seals, neither in Australia.

When I first saw a seal I thought to myself; someone could fuck that up pretty good.

My feelings were correct.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 12, 2010, 12:02 AM
Post #12 of 93 (2884 views)
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Re: [rhys] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When I first saw a seal I thought to myself; someone could fuck that up pretty good.

really? When I first saw a seal, I thought, 4.75 pound thread, little piece of lead, Someone must have to really try to fuck that up.

My feelings were also correct. Tongue


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 12, 2010, 1:23 AM
Post #13 of 93 (2863 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Where was the rig when the ripcord was pulled, laying on the table or on someone’s back? What kind of rig, what kind of shape was the pilot chute in? Did you carefully look over the rest of the pack job? Have you talked with the rigger who packed it? Too many unanswered questions.

Sparky


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Dec 12, 2010, 5:25 AM
Post #14 of 93 (2817 views)
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Re: [rhys] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In Poland we use a piece of paper with rigger's stamp and signautre, instead of a lead seal. That would squeeze thru the grommet easily Wink.


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 12, 2010, 6:41 AM
Post #15 of 93 (2781 views)
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In reply to:
In Poland we use a piece of paper with rigger's stamp and signautre, instead of a lead seal. That would squeeze thru the grommet easily Wink.

That's exactly what we were using in Bulgaria till 2009. Then the people in charge thought that the lead seal is better than a piece of paper Laugh


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 12, 2010, 7:09 AM
Post #16 of 93 (2758 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In Poland we use a piece of paper with rigger's stamp and signautre, instead of a lead seal. That would squeeze thru the grommet easily Wink.

That's exactly what we were using in Bulgaria till 2009. Then the people in charge thought that the lead seal is better than a piece of paper Laugh

But why put the seal thread through the closing loop in the first place? Depending on the rig, putting it through the loop may be easy, or it may be difficult, but either way, it is not done without actually trying to do it.

Some rigs have many flaps between the pilot chute (spring) and the pin.

More flaps means that less force from the spring will actually get to the end of the loop to break a thread that is through it.

By the time the closing loop has gone through 4 flaps, I am not surprised that the force has been reduced to where it will not break the thread.

The full pilot chute spring force won't be available until some of the flaps have peeled back.

Considering this force reduction from the flaps, it is critical that we never do anything that might make it more difficult for the pilot chute to deploy.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 12, 2010, 9:40 AM
Post #17 of 93 (2677 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

This not only requires putting the seal thread through the loop but also putting both legs of the thread through the seal to form a closed loop. I don't seal my rigs that way.

This is an old story but worth reviewing at the Rigger Forum at the PIA symposium.

We are working on paper seals in the U.S. but right now the FAA has issued a letter requiring them. If one manufacturer put paper seals in their manual we'd probably be good to go.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Dec 12, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #18 of 93 (2581 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you post a photo or a sketch of how you seal?

Regardless of how you seal, if you don't put the thread through the closing loop, it won't affect the closing loop when the pin is pulled.

But even if the thread was through the closing loop, shouldn't pulling the pin break the thread? How did it not in this example?


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Dec 12, 2010, 5:22 PM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 12, 2010, 10:30 PM
Post #19 of 93 (2516 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Paul,

Quote:
But even if the thread was through the closing loop, shouldn't pulling the pin break the thread?

Yes, it broke the thread but not where you probably think.

Picture this: You attach the thread onto the cable, above the pin. This gives you two 'legs' of thread coming from the cable. Then you take one leg of the thread & put it through the seal. Now take this same leg of the thread & go through the loop. Now take this same leg of the thread & go back through the other hole in the seal. Now tie the seal threads ends together & now slide the seal close to the loop and mash it. Now when you pull, you break the thread between the seal & the cable; but the thread legs between the seal & the loop are still intact, forming a 'loop' of seal thread.

Do you understand how this might do it?

I hope that I've described it correctly,

JerryBaumchen


councilman24  (D 8631)

Dec 12, 2010, 11:05 PM
Post #20 of 93 (2502 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

What Jerry said.

I put the thread on the cable, one end under the pin, the same end through the hole in the seal closest to the pin, then the same in makes a 180 and back down the other hole. The other end of the thread through the same hole, adjust size and mash. I haven't tied a knot in 20 years.

Too late for pics. Maybe tomorrow. But busy with something for Jerry.Wink


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 13, 2010, 12:01 AM
Post #21 of 93 (2485 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious, does anybody know what happened to the fellow who packed this rig? License suspended? If such an issue was shown by simply routing the seal thread incorrectly, why didn't we see some sort of circular advisory?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 13, 2010, 1:18 AM
Post #22 of 93 (2457 views)
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Re: [Unstable] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm curious, does anybody know what happened to the fellow who packed this rig? License suspended? If such an issue was shown by simply routing the seal thread incorrectly, why didn't we see some sort of circular advisory?

Like so many things in FAR’s, the proper way to seal a reserve is somewhat vague and open to interpretation. This is what Part 65 says.


65.133 Seal.
Each certificated parachute rigger must have a seal with an identifying mark prescribed by the Administrator, and a seal press. After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation for that type of parachute.


This is what a few of the manufactures say out it.

Sunpath:Seal the reserve container and log the work done on the packing data card and in your rigger's logbook.

Mirage: Refer to Poynters Manual for additional information on
sealing reserve!

Wings: 16. Seal the reserve container and log the work done on the packing data card and in your rigger’s logbook.

And then Pointer’s Manual.

http://www.flickr.com/...5637@N06/5257353970/

Sparky


liftedtitan

Dec 13, 2010, 6:42 AM
Post #23 of 93 (2412 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

God that give me the willies! A good reminder to check your pins, not jsut that there in but correctly routed! This is really scary, I bet the owner was a little sick seeing that.


(This post was edited by liftedtitan on Dec 13, 2010, 6:58 AM)


millertime24  (C 38793)

Dec 13, 2010, 7:05 AM
Post #24 of 93 (2392 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty scary indeed! Is it just me, or did anybody else watch that waiting for the PC to slam into the camera?


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 13, 2010, 7:57 AM
Post #25 of 93 (2361 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Reserve total packed [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What Jerry said.

I put the thread on the cable, one end under the pin, the same end through the hole in the seal closest to the pin, then the same in makes a 180 and back down the other hole. The other end of the thread through the same hole, adjust size and mash. I haven't tied a knot in 20 years.

Too late for pics. Maybe tomorrow. But busy with something for Jerry.Wink

Thats exactly how the riggers I've been working with taught me how to seal it.

One would think that even if you did put the leg through the loop, it will still feed through when the pin is pulled but hey...

It will give me something to screw around with today.Wink


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