Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
To get back from far spot under x-brace.

 

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stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 3, 2010, 7:13 AM
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To get back from far spot under x-brace. Can't Post

What is your canopy, size and what method do you guys use???


guzman

Dec 3, 2010, 9:19 AM
Post #2 of 62 (2615 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Velocity 96, rear risers always


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 3, 2010, 9:20 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I jump a Velocity 103, and I check the spot before I jump and open high enough to fly back to the DZ with moderate brakes or rear risers so as to arrive with enough altitude to set up for my swoop. Works great.


petejones45  (C License)

Dec 3, 2010, 9:42 AM
Post #4 of 62 (2598 views)
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Re: [davelepka] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump a Velocity 103, and I check the spot before I jump and open high enough to fly back to the DZ with moderate brakes or rear risers so as to arrive with enough altitude to set up for my swoop. Works great.


you missed the point, it was question regarding coming back from a long spot

Quote:
open high enough to fly back to the DZ

if that is the case you are endangering other jumpers by opening higher than the predetermined opening altitude


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 3, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Really?

I have not missed the point, the point is that altitude = options, so you if you short yourself on one, you short yourself on the other. The last place you want to be on any canopy is short on altitude or options.

Additionally, when you are tyring to swoop, the set up is everything. If you squeak it back to the DZ just at your turn altitude, you have removed any choices you have in the matter. You either take the set-up you have or abort the swoop. None of this is mentioning the fact that the more time you have in your set-up area, the more time you have to scan for traffic. Canopy collisions are literally killers, so anything that hampers your traffic scan may soon hamper your ability to breathe on your own.

Quote:
if that is the case you are endangering other jumpers by opening higher than the predetermined opening altitude

Strike two. If you are jumping a swooping canopy, with the intention of swooping (as indicated above) then your predetermined altitude is high enough to ensure that you make it back. If your intention is to participate in a freefall activity, then you plan for that at the possible expence of your swoop, but that's your choice.

So you want to swoop, where do you exit? How about last where your pull altitude is not limited by jumpers exiting after you, and the traffic will thin itself out by the time you get to the LZ. When the only other canopies still aloft are slow moving tandems and students, your options open up considerably (remember from above, the concept of options?) and your traffic scan is simplified (remember from above, the importance of the traffic scan?).

You're way out of your league here Slick. Commenting on 'average' skydiving situations is one thing, but high performance canopy flight is another story. With little idea of what you're talking about in general, what would ever lead you to believe that you would have any useful input on this subject? (I'd be willing to bet the answer has something to do with Youtube). If you wanted to phrase it in a question and ask, 'What about x, y, and z, do they play a role?', that would have been one thing, but to insert your opinion as if you know jack shit is the wrong apporoach.

To insinuate that I would endanger other jumpers is also making a mistake. The safety of the other jumpers and DZ operations in general is the focus of my attention any time I'm on the DZ. Ever notice how quick I am to point out the incorrect bullshit that you post, so as to avoid anyone getting the idea that you have a clue? I'm the same way in person with every other jumper on the DZ, and I have the USPA Safety awards as presented by an executive member of the BOD to prove it.

Go find another tree to bark up, this one isn't for you.


petejones45  (C License)

Dec 3, 2010, 10:26 AM
Post #6 of 62 (2578 views)
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Re: [davelepka] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because you want to swoop doesn't mean yuo have to on every jump, the first thing should be landing safely. swooping is an added bonus


polarbear  (D 25673)

Dec 3, 2010, 10:33 AM
Post #7 of 62 (2572 views)
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think davelepka brough up two important points - If you intend to swoop, you need to take measures to make sure you do have altitude to easily make it back. If that means sacrificing the freefall portion of the jump, you have to do it.

Given that, I've jumped a number of x-braces over the years and have found that the best method can depend on the canopy. On Velos, I find brakes work best...deep brakes if you have some strong tailwinds to blow you back, light (1/4) brakes if there isn't much wind or if you are off the windline. Rears can help, too, but I find light brakes work a little better on Velos.

On JVXs, deep brakes were still the answer with strong tailwinds, but the rear risers were the ticket in lighter winds. The JVX had a flatter glide overall and I found it was easier to deal with long spots on that canopy.

Again, the real answer is you set the jump around your swoop such that you have a good spot, you have plenty of altitude, and you have clear airspace. This really is critical and is always the best answer.


(This post was edited by polarbear on Dec 3, 2010, 10:34 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 3, 2010, 10:42 AM
Post #8 of 62 (2567 views)
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Just because you want to swoop doesn't mean yuo have to on every jump, the first thing should be landing safely. swooping is an added bonus

If you're going to swoop, the first thing should be swooping safely, which involves planning ahead and making sure you have enough altitude to perform a proper traffic scan, set-up and turn.

Thanks for bringing us full circle, right back to my initial point. Do you want to give it rest, or take another shot in the dark at making a valid comment, only to ultimately end up coming full circle once again, right back to what I said in the first place?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Dec 3, 2010, 11:28 AM
Post #9 of 62 (2545 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I have a "far spot", it's usually on a windy day and I just ride back on the tail wind like any other jump.... Tongue

If this is about a "long (oops) spot" then it's an old topic, but on a normal day and I'm trying to flatten my angle back with tail wind......

Stiletto 120
Seems for me playing with my brakes works better than risers

I also collapse the slider (less drag), loosen my chest strap (more efficient airfoil) and get narrow/small in my body (reduce drag).

Dave's right, if you're out farther than expected, best is to open at an appropriate altitude for conditions if you notice that.


petejones45  (C License)

Dec 3, 2010, 12:17 PM
Post #10 of 62 (2527 views)
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Re: [davelepka] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Just because you want to swoop doesn't mean yuo have to on every jump, the first thing should be landing safely. swooping is an added bonus

If you're going to swoop, the first thing should be swooping safely, which involves planning ahead and making sure you have enough altitude to perform a proper traffic scan, set-up and turn.

Thanks for bringing us full circle, right back to my initial point. Do you want to give it rest, or take another shot in the dark at making a valid comment, only to ultimately end up coming full circle once again, right back to what I said in the first place?


Your initial point wouldn't have existed if i hadn't called you out on your dangerous practices, its ok to admit you are wrong instead of covering your tracks


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 3, 2010, 12:59 PM
Post #11 of 62 (2513 views)
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Your initial point wouldn't have existed if i hadn't called you out on your dangerous practices, its ok to admit you are wrong instead of covering your tracks

Are you fucking retarded? Do you know how to read? In truth, the answers to those two questions might explain the crap you post, but I doubt it.

My initial point was that I check the spot, and pull high enough to get back to the DZ with enough altitude to safely fly my canopy in the way that I want.

I then brought the 'conversation' full circle by answering your post with the following, which is just a more detailed version of my initial point -
Quote:
If you're going to swoop, the first thing should be swooping safely, which involves planning ahead and making sure you have enough altitude to perform a proper traffic scan, set-up and turn.

The truth of any of this is that checking the spot is always the solution to getting back to the DZ. If you are the last jumper out, and the other people you are jumping with are on the same page as you, then taking the spot you are given and pulling high is one way to do it.

If you are not the last jumper out, and the spot is such that you cannot get back with pulling higher than you planned, then the solution is a go-around, and exiting on the next pass with a better spot. If the spot is such that you cannot make it back, the jumpers behind will probably call for a go-around, so instead of being last out on a long spot, and possibly backing yourself into a corner, call for the go-around yourself, and be the first jumper out on the second pass.

Being too far out to make it back without extraordinary measures means you made a mistake. The real solution is not a max effort input to extend your glide, it's the preventative measure of checking the spot, and not exiting unless you are within reach of the DZ with an acceptable margin for error. A longer opening, or other 'minor' problem will turn a marginal spot into an impossible spot.

In the end, this thread is about high performance canopies, and how to properly fly them. The pilots of such canopies should poses the training and experience to handle them, and the situational awareness to integrate them into the world of larger, slower canopies. None of the above applies to you.


D22369  (D 22369)

Dec 3, 2010, 1:18 PM
Post #12 of 62 (2498 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Icarus fx-85, rear risers. gets me a very surprising distance for the size of the canopy.

Roy


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 3, 2010, 4:28 PM
Post #13 of 62 (2462 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is your canopy, size and what method do you guys use???

Velo 111 and I use toggles.

Toggles gives me the best glide and the much less fatigue (I can hook my thumbs in my hip rings and steer with the harness). That and worst case I toss in a cleaned up body position and that will help extend out the range a little more.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #14 of 62 (2461 views)
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cut it out, both of you.

Pete, stop trolling.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 3, 2010, 8:25 PM
Post #15 of 62 (2423 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

My question only requires one or two sentences, not a whole freaking essay.
And like i said, x braced only. I know how st or ka or xfire flys.

Ill answer mine
Fx99, seems like small break input is better than rears. Feels like it stays afloat longer.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Dec 3, 2010, 8:36 PM
Post #16 of 62 (2420 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

My son swears by "using brakes" on his Velo but I still prefer rears on my Velo 103.


morris

Dec 4, 2010, 1:51 AM
Post #17 of 62 (2396 views)
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Re: [petejones45] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
swooping is an added bonus

no, itīs not, itīs what itīs all about
freefall is highly overrated and a waste of altitude and money
swooping is the most intense experience the sport has to offer and nothing but terminal (Basegear) lowpulls even comes close (but even with the most extrem lowpulls you can not carry all of your speed down to groundlevel - if you wanna repeat it)

donīt take this too serious, just my spontaneous reaction...
I agree on "you donīt have to on every jump", abording before the turn due to traffic (or for any other reason(s)) is obvious...


timmyfitz  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 5:50 AM
Post #18 of 62 (2374 views)
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Re: [davelepka] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Really?

I have not missed the point,

Considering the other answers given in the thread I would say you missed the point.

The question was not how to avoid getting yourself into that situation but what do you do after you are there. Such as if you have made a mistake, didn't pull high or whatever and you need a little help to get back using some other method besides what you would use if you were dropped right over the DZ.

We all know that you would not make such a mistake nor have you ever done so in the past. We could probably go so far to say you have never landed off because in all of your years of jumping you have not made any mistakes which put you on a long spot. But it does happens to us mere mortals on occasion.

In the cases where mistakes are made it is nice to get some info on how other people handle the situation. Obviously you do not have or need this information because you have never found yourself on a long spot.

Crazy


(This post was edited by timmyfitz on Dec 4, 2010, 5:53 AM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 4, 2010, 6:07 AM
Post #19 of 62 (2370 views)
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Re: [morris] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Tim and Morris, you guys fuckin suck.
So Tim what method did you use under that xaos 88???
and Morris what the hell do you jump???

Let's be little bit more constructive here.
and not be such a dorkzone.com


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 7:05 AM
Post #20 of 62 (2356 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's be little bit more constructive here.
and not be such a dorkzone.com

Here, this will probably help, since everyone is getting all upset about nonsense:

http://www.moldychum.com/storage/PenisRuler.jpg


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Dec 4, 2010, 7:41 AM)


timmyfitz  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 7:40 AM
Post #21 of 62 (2346 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow. Tim and Morris, you guys fuckin suck.

If you say so it must be true.

In reply to:
So Tim what method did you use under that xaos 88???

No clear cut answer. It depends on the conditions. Up wind, down wind, wind speed etc. I try both brakes and riser to see which one is giving me better results in that particular situation. It's not always black and white as I learned by experiment and from taking several canopy courses.


superstu  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 8:02 AM
Post #22 of 62 (2338 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Morris what the hell do you jump???

actually Morris jumps different sized velo's and has held the world record in speed for a short while and i have heard rumors he's just set a national record for distance i believe in germany or spain i forget where.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 4, 2010, 8:05 AM
Post #23 of 62 (2333 views)
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Re: [superstu] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Morris what the hell do you jump???

actually Morris jumps different sized velo's and has held the world record in speed for a short while and i have heard rumors he's just set a national record for distance i believe in germany or spain i forget where.

Two years ago he set some Texas records when he came to the swoop comp at SD Houston. He was on one of his Comp-Velos at that meet.


DocPop  (C License)

Dec 4, 2010, 10:45 AM
Post #24 of 62 (2316 views)
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Re: [morris] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
swooping is an added bonus

no, itīs not, itīs what itīs all about
freefall is highly overrated and a waste of altitude and money
swooping is the most intense experience the sport has to offer and nothing but terminal (Basegear) lowpulls even comes close (but even with the most extrem lowpulls you can not carry all of your speed down to groundlevel - if you wanna repeat it)

donīt take this too serious, just my spontaneous reaction...
I agree on "you donīt have to on every jump", abording before the turn due to traffic (or for any other reason(s)) is obvious...

Now you're talking! I have felt that it's all about the canopy ride since AFF. I have a long way to go before i can call myself a swooper, but that's the goal.

[Not on a x-brace so I won't soil this thread with an answer to the OP]


Martini  (D 23756)

Dec 4, 2010, 9:30 PM
Post #25 of 62 (2261 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] To get back from far spot under x-brace. [In reply to] Can't Post

Too bad this thread has been so badly hijacked, a simple intelligent question deserves simple intelligent answers.

I haven't been jumping my Xaos-21-98 (2.0 wl) for a long while but by far my best float was in pretty deep brakes. Rears were less effective and much harder to hold for a long flight. I go for best float when on a long upwind spot which is what I assume you meant by "far spot". Long upwind or crosswind runs need different inputs.


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