Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
TIs with their own Tandem rigs?

 

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jumpoutnow

Nov 29, 2010, 5:30 PM
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TIs with their own Tandem rigs? Can't Post

How many Instructors actually own their tandem rigs?


rhys  (D 95)

Nov 29, 2010, 5:41 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

a few but not many.

you will find it is more common in the club scene.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 29, 2010, 7:12 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know several who own one or two each. I used to own my own as well but sold it as I was not jumping it enough to cover maintenance and replacement parts.

Matt


Unstable  (D 28930)

Nov 29, 2010, 7:15 PM
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Re: [rhys] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you will find it is more common in the club scene.

Our DZ (club) used tandem guys with their own rigs for years and years, it wasn't until recently that one of the TM's moved away, and we bought his rig as he took off.

I used to talk to the DZO's in the area about this extensively. The general consensus is that there have been too many problems with TM's that own their own gear that simply weren't putting the $$ into taking proper care of them...


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Nov 29, 2010, 8:55 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many Instructors actually own their tandem rigs?


I do as do a few others, but it's not very common. My Rig


Unstable  (D 28930)

Nov 29, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a beautiful rig. There is a guy in town with a very nice Tandem 2k3 in his closet, but I don't think he's jumped it in a year. It's such a shame..


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 29, 2010, 9:21 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just curious how much extra do you get for using your rig? If anything. The major DZ's in my area will not pay anything extra to you so it is almost not worth it.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Nov 29, 2010, 9:28 PM
Post #8 of 36 (3862 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

It varies from place to place I am sure but I was making the then going rate for being the TM plus rig rental. If I recall correctly it worked out to around $60-65 a jump.


Unstable  (D 28930)

Nov 29, 2010, 9:44 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I've done a lot of math on this guy for our DZ (I'm on the board now as treasurer) and here is what I've figured...

Assuming that a TM puts on between 100-200 jumps per season, lets make the following assumptions...

a. Figure $400 in replacement parts per year (drouge and bridle are 2-year parts, et cetera)
b. 2 Reserve repacks at $75 each
c. Subsidize an AAD cost + maintenance of $175 per year
d. Give your tandem investment a useful life of 9 year
e. 4 year and 8 year check-ups at the manufacturer
f. Relines every other season at $500


So, if you have a used rig (lets say $4,500) then your true cost is about $12-$17 per jump (depending on how much you use it, 100 or 200 jumper per year) and about $25-$30 per year if you have a new rig, lets say $12,000.

I like that model, because it seems that the standard at most DZ's is about $35 per jump set aside for tandem equipment.

*this is how it worked to our DZ, but I also figured in that we traded in our SET400 for a 366


(This post was edited by Unstable on Nov 29, 2010, 9:46 PM)


chris74  (No 568073)

Nov 29, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Birds,
I own 2 Sigma's loaded with nice Rage 360.
Yes, I am over the pond and here it's a requirement for an independent contractor. We usually get 105 US$ per jump & 55 US$ more for a H/C shoot.
Cost of the life,Taxes + what Mr Unstable brillantly has written above explain why we earn a bit more .
Blue sky
Taz


rhys  (D 95)

Nov 29, 2010, 11:47 PM
Post #11 of 36 (3800 views)
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Re: [chris74] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

what are those rage 360's like?

opening

toggle pressure/configuration.

performence

flare?

It is the forst I have heard of rage tandem


chris74  (No 568073)

Nov 30, 2010, 2:48 AM
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Re: [rhys] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey Rhys,
First, I do hope your new business is doing good.
I have switched my old PA 365 for a FCI rage 360 and they are very similar canopies : they do the job just fine !!!! and I got a good bargain so .... Red may be a pain to deal with but I think he is a good guy.
Blue sky
Taz
PS : I have jumped Icarus 360, PA365, BT80, A2 389, firebolt 350, Sigmas mains & all of those workhorses do what they are designed for Wink
Attachments: rage360.JPG (259 KB)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Nov 30, 2010, 3:25 AM
Post #13 of 36 (3737 views)
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How many Instructors actually own their tandem rigs?

I have 12 Strong Systems that I do contract work with time to time.

My rate is $75.00 per jump which includes the instructor fee. My rate is $45.00 for the instructor and $30.00 for the rig.

Packing is not included in the above rate.

BS,
MEL


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Nov 30, 2010, 3:40 AM
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Re: [rhys] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what are those rage 360's like?

They are basically alot like a Icarus tandem with a few changes here and there.

The Rage tandem has a better opening sequence and I attribute that to the Brake setting on both the primary and secondary control lines.


The Rage also is trimmed at a steeper angle of attack which seems to give it a little more flare than the Icarus.

I have Set 400's, Set 366's, Icarus 365's, and one Rage canopy in my systems.

I usually pickup the Rage when I have a heavy load for both the opening and landing.

BS,
MEL


Deci  (D 1046)

Nov 30, 2010, 5:58 AM
Post #15 of 36 (3678 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have my own brand new personal tandem rig on order from JumpShack right now. I jump in Ottawa, Canada.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 30, 2010, 7:18 AM
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Re: [rhys] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have over 750 jumps on a Rage 360.

I found the Canopy to open a lot like the NEW SIGMA II's, flew easy with moderate toggle pressure and flared nice, with plenty of stopping power even if you had a long two stage flare/gliding landing.

No tricks to packing them and they are compatible with about any rig as far as I know.

As to the OP, when I owned my own rig I got $75.00 a jump if I packed and $65.00 if the DZ packed.

It was enough to pay off the rig, but as a "weekend warrior" it was not enough to make a living and handle the long term maintenance and replacement of parts, so I sold it to a fellow I/E who could put it to much better use.

I know am a T-I in the rotation, no over head.

Matt


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 30, 2010, 8:30 AM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many Instructors actually own their tandem rigs?
0

I did when I was actively teaching. One DZ liked that I brought my own rig, though after a while I also would use the DZO's rig when mine was being packed an we were rushed.

Another DZ wanted me to come jump there occasionally, but would NOT take me on condition that I used my own rig and having seen their gear Shocked that is the ONLY way I would do tandems there...

JW


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 1, 2010, 10:20 AM
Post #18 of 36 (3348 views)
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Re: [Unstable] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... So, if you have a used rig (lets say $4,500) ...

.......................................................................

Wow!
I want to meet your suppliers!
Most of the decent used tandem rigs - in the classified ads - are going for twice that.

Sure, you might be able to pick up a "beater" for $4,500, but only a Master Rigger with "mad skilz" could bring it up to my standards. And that would only work if the Master Rigger was working on his own gear ... because no "customer" could afford to pay him what his time is worth.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner
CSPA Rigger Examiner


Unstable  (D 28930)

Dec 1, 2010, 10:51 AM
Post #19 of 36 (3343 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sure, you might be able to pick up a "beater" for $4,500, but only a Master Rigger with "mad skilz" could bring it up to my standards. And that would only work if the Master Rigger was working on his own gear ... because no "customer" could afford to pay him what his time is worth.


Good point ~ we bought ours for about that much 2 years ago. Very good container and reserve, but we replaced the aging SET 400 with a 366...


inextremis  (D 6498)

Dec 2, 2010, 5:52 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I bought a very nice Sigma with a 370 main 4 years ago. I enjoy having it and doing maybe 75 tandems per year. I have never worked in a commercial context. I seldom ask for money beyond slots plus (usually $50 per jump). I can't defend it economically, but I like being able to take friends and acquaintances on tandems and I like owning and maintaining the rig and knowing exactly what's on my back. I skydive for enjoyment--that includes my tandems.


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Dec 2, 2010, 7:37 PM
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I owned two and used em both for years. Had to sell them when jumping was too infrequent.


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Dec 3, 2010, 9:43 AM
Post #22 of 36 (3149 views)
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've done about 100 tandems now, just enough to know that I like doing them and I want to do it for a long time. I'm only 24 so I could potentially have a long tandem career in front of me. I started doing the math on the economics of owning my own tandem system and I quickly stopped because the payback time is so long.

My DZ would pay an extra $20/ jump (on top of regular pay); but that's untaxed contractor pay, so figure on netting an extra $15/ jump. I did enough math to figure that if I do 250 jumps/ year (easy since I did my first 100 in 5 months), replace lines, drogue and risers every 500 jumps, retire the main after 1500 jumps, and keep the whole thing for 12- 15 years- then my per jump equipment cost is $7-9 per jump. I did not assume a salvage value at the end of its life.

So now I'm done to making only about $6- $8 more per jump over the life of the systemCrazy. Add in the fact that I don't have $15,000 laying around to purchase it with cash, and I would have to go out and finance it... and I'm quickly making almost no money. Owning a tandem rig in my position would be bad decision.


sriddy  (D License)

Dec 3, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike,

I think the only way it really makes sense to own your own rig is in John's case.

He's Sigma rated and the DZ only has Strongs.


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 3, 2010, 1:06 PM
Post #24 of 36 (3111 views)
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Re: [jumpoutnow] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

I own six systems and while most (not always) the time you will have DZO's who will be happy to see you show up on busy days and are willing to pay you for the rig rental, the biggest problem is having some flaming asshole TI's who bitch about your gear and how much money you make with it, yet they who bitch the most have no investment or cost to maintain very expensive gear and are crying about it because they think your taking all the work/money from them.

The trick is finding DZO's who understand the value of TI's who own gear and are willing to have it used on busy days to help handle the volume of pax. And finding those kind of DZO's is becoming harder to do.

When I shot video full time the TI's would bitch to the DZO all the time about video people making more then they do per jump, yet none of those assholes had invested 4 or 5 grand in gear on their head & editing crap to do the job,


(This post was edited by stratostar on Dec 3, 2010, 3:39 PM)


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Dec 6, 2010, 7:11 AM
Post #25 of 36 (3014 views)
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Re: [stratostar] TIs with their own Tandem rigs? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the late 90s I was jumping at a DZ that offered only static line training. Another guy asked me if I was interested in getting my tandem rating and purchasing a rig, sounded cool so we did it. A long time rigger and tandem IE in the area suggested that we take a look at Eclipse, seemed like a good deal at the time. We flew Shoobie out on a weekend we had the Mullins King Air and got our ratings. Shoobie even left us a loaner rig until the new one was shipped to us.

At the time students would walk in on "word of mouth advertising" to do the SL FJC and we would try to convince a few of them to do a tandem instead. Bit of a strange situation considering that today many think that it's required to do a tandem.

That DZ was bought out by a guy trying to consolidate a few Kansas DZs in order to keep his Caravan flying. We found ourselves at a Wichita DZ where the resident DZO had sold out to Caravan Man, but was given the tandem concession for a year. So, we sat on our thumbs for a year. By the end of that year my wife and I were running the DZ for the most part, the bank wanted the Caravan back, and Caravan Man wanted to move on. I purchased the C182, student gear, various stuff in the hanger and in November of 2001 I became DZO.

That's the long story. Short version is basically if you want to own your own tandem gear and control your destiny, go ahead and buy an airplane, rant a hanger and hang our your shingle. You also get to work a 40 hour job, answer the phone scheduling (another 20 hours a week depending on volume), and be the first at the DZ and last to leave every Sat and Sunday. Maybe if the volume exists you can someday be a full time DZO and quit your day job.

The timing actually worked out fairly well for us. About the time we purchased the DZ we also started our family. Angie quit her day job in 2002 to raise kid/s and "work the phone."

Sorry if I drifted off topic there a bit. But that's how to make owning a tandem rig pay! I say go for it!!!

Martin


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