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When to begin wearing booties?

 

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fizzbuzz99  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:47 AM
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When to begin wearing booties? Can't Post

Hey All,

No poll, because I figured that would be too limiting.
I've recently got my BPA FS coach rating as well as holding USPA coach rating and have done a handful of coach jumps. The people I've jumped with are obviously aiming for their BPA FS1 qualification, the majority are fresh off student status / have low jump numbers and depending on whether the student has had some tunnel/previous coach jumps/etc they usually have very little FS experience.

But mostly what I am seeing is students qualifying AFF, putting on a bootie suit and asking me to teach them to fly. Which is cool because I would never advise someone buying an FS suit without booties, that's a rip off.
However I was told to tuck my booties in whilst doing FS coach jumps because my coach (who I can guarantee REALLY KNOWS HIS SHIT) was of the opinion that it is best to learn to fly FS properly without booties first, and then add them in once you have the basics down.

I see his point, that shoving booties on straightaway will make you fly different (maybe less in control for a while), and maybe it's better that the student can do his stuff without them (esp. learning to track rather than relying on bootie power). On the other hand, you could argue that once you have the bootie suit you might as well start learning to fly it from the get-go.

Thoughts?


gunit

Nov 23, 2010, 9:07 AM
Post #2 of 37 (2350 views)
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Re: [fizzbuzz99] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

I take it your a fan of the game "fizz buzz"??!!

Fucking hate that game tho maths isn't my strong point.

I've got a FS suit with booties, got it on 5 sec delays years ago. Will still wear it when I start AFF next March. In my limited real life freefall and my 10 minute tunnel time I tend to agree with the idea thats theres not much point as why add "boosters" till you can do it properly


mrubin  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 10:09 AM
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Re: [fizzbuzz99] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did about 20 RW jumps before I got a suit with booties. This was mainly because I was saving up to buy a suit and wanted to make sure that RW is what I wanted to do.

I think learning without booties is important, but you don't need to do a ton of jumps to understand the basics. Once someone has some basic RW skills and is sure that he/she wants to continue with RW, I don't see any reason not to get a suit with booties.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 23, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: [fizzbuzz99] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

Matt


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 2:56 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy


Beachbum  (B License)

Nov 23, 2010, 3:42 PM
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy

I don't see the correlation ... one is a safety issue, the other not.


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #8 of 37 (2183 views)
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Re: [Beachbum] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy

I don't see the correlation ... one is a safety issue, the other not.

both are safety issues


Beachbum  (B License)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:20 PM
Post #9 of 37 (2168 views)
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy

I don't see the correlation ... one is a safety issue, the other not.

both are safety issues

I don't often hear of lines snagging on booties ... how are they a safety issue?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:24 PM
Post #10 of 37 (2162 views)
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy


OK, here's the deal; and it's not just from this thread, it's from your recent posting history.

Bill Rehm (rehmwa) is a highly-experienced, highly-skilled and highly-respected skydiving instructor and (among other things) relative work flyer. You, on the other hand, talk smack about things that you're barely (if that) qualified to talk about, and you do it with insulting disrespect, to boot.

You really need to learn when to STFU and LISTEN to experts who know a hell of a lot more than you do.

If you think I'm the only one here who's getting sick of your shit, say something smartass in response.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Nov 23, 2010, 4:28 PM)


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:24 PM
Post #11 of 37 (2161 views)
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Re: [Beachbum] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't often hear of lines snagging on booties ... how are they a safety issue?

If i'm going to do a jump with a newly licensed jumper, the last thing i want them wearing is booties, that increases the chance that they will hit me harder because of the added speed. most new jumps don't know how to control their forward speed very well so before you add a turbo charger you should learn how to fly easy and comfortable first


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:37 PM
Post #12 of 37 (2151 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy


OK, here's the deal; and it's not just from this thread, it's from your recent posting history.

Bill Rehm (rehmwa) is a highly-experienced, highly-skilled and highly-respected skydiving instructor and (among other things) relative work flyer. You, on the other hand, talk smack about things that you're barely (if that) qualified to talk about, and you do it with insulting disrespect, to boot.

You really need to learn when to STFU and LISTEN to experts who know a hell of a lot more than you do.

If you think I'm the only one here who's getting sick of your shit, say something smartass in response.



Haha its not my fault you don't like my helpful advice, you are perfectly capable of not opening a thread Wink


Ron

Nov 23, 2010, 4:39 PM
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to

Then under your logic, students should start naked.
After the first jump they can wear one sock, after the second they can put on both......Crazy


Bertt  (D 99999)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:40 PM
Post #14 of 37 (2146 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is petejones45 the guy who had 2 pcit malfunctions by his seventh jump?


Ron

Nov 23, 2010, 4:47 PM
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Re: [fizzbuzz99] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
However I was told to tuck my booties in whilst doing FS coach jumps because my coach (who I can guarantee REALLY KNOWS HIS SHIT) was of the opinion that it is best to learn to fly FS properly without booties first, and then add them in once you have the basics down.

Then why not ask him what he thinks?
1. You respect him
2. You think he is qualified to have a solid opinion.

Quote:
Thoughts?

Since you asked......

I think that once a person has a good grasp on the basics then it is fine to add the booties. By "basics" I mean the ability to fly a basic 2 way safely.... Say a unlinked free flown exit with swoop to a dock, some turns and re-docks...etc.

They should stay with two ways till they show the same level of control they had before the booties.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 23, 2010, 4:54 PM
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

But you don't offer sound advice.
What you offer is uninformed snide comments that are going to lead to some one getting hurt if they follow any of it.

If you can't refrain or listen to Andy then I hope the Mod's will give you a chance to cool your heals.

Matt


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 5:10 PM
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Re: [matthewcline] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

My heels are as cool as a witches tit!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:20 PM
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you and Ron...students should show some solid proficiency without the booties before giving them a shot.

As far as mantis...same thing...show some proficiency in the boxman and THEN pick up on mantis.

I don't see a need to jump right into either to avoid "developing bad habits". I think Bill was pulling our leg about that.


Beachbum  (B License)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:43 PM
Post #19 of 37 (2049 views)
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't often hear of lines snagging on booties ... how are they a safety issue?

If i'm going to do a jump with a newly licensed jumper, the last thing i want them wearing is booties, that increases the chance that they will hit me harder because of the added speed. most new jumps don't know how to control their forward speed very well so before you add a turbo charger you should learn how to fly easy and comfortable first

I'm sure no instructor, but my take on that would be this: Booties give someone more drive for sure, but don't turn someone into a rocket. Jumping with a newly licensed person would typically mean a 4 way at max. If you feel that you aren't able to keep track of and dodge a rookie if need be, among 3 people or less besides yourself, then perhaps you shouldn't jump with rookies?


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:10 PM
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If i'm going to do a jump with a newly licensed jumper, the last thing i want them wearing is booties, that increases the chance that they will hit me harder because of the added speed.

In the last couple of threads I've seen you post in....

You've admitted to doing something that sounds very much like a dog trying to butt-scoot across a carpet to scrape off dingle-berries on your way to the door because your legs are apparently too weak to carry you to the door with competence

You've claimed that students can't maneuver a large canopy into student CYPRES firing parameters because those maneuvers require a lot of upper body strength. Kinda implies you suffer from a serious case of spaghetti arms. I'm a fat old woman and I'm sure I could get a student CYPRES to fire on a Mantis 290 if I tried.

And now you're admitting that at (what is it.. 150 jumps?) that you don't have the skill to side-slide a few feet to avoid a student with booties.

You are either a seriously funny troll or a complete ass gasket. Could be you're both.


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:19 PM
Post #21 of 37 (2034 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK, here's the deal; and it's not just from this thread, it's from your recent posting history.
If you think I'm the only one here who's getting sick of your shit

A D-bag come's to mind and not the kind for canopies.

To the OP, real skydivers don't need no stinkin booties! Laugh


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:58 PM
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Re: [labrys] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You've admitted to doing something that sounds very much like a dog trying to butt-scoot across a carpet to scrape off dingle-berries on your way to the door because your legs are apparently too weak to carry you to the door with competence

wrong my legs get sore that doesn't make them weak

In reply to:
You've claimed that students can't maneuver a large canopy into student CYPRES firing parameters because those maneuvers require a lot of upper body strength. Kinda implies you suffer from a serious case of spaghetti arms. I'm a fat old woman and I'm sure I cou
ld get a student CYPRES to fire on a Mantis 290 if I tried.

wrong again i can bench press 180lbs

In reply to:
And now you're admitting that at (what is it.. 150 jumps?) that you don't have the skill to side-slide a few feet to avoid a student with booties.

strike three, i can side slide just fine... its kinda hard to see a newbie from behind unless you have eyes that poke out of the back of your helmet
In reply to:
You are either a seriously funny troll or a complete ass gasket. Could be you're both.

Nice PA Wink


Bertt  (D 99999)

Nov 24, 2010, 7:01 AM
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Re: [labrys] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

It gets worse. This guy says he had two PCIT malfunctions while he was a student. Either he panicked and cut away two good parachutes, which reflects on his training, or the dropzone where he trained gave a student two serious malfunctions because of improper maintenance or packing. One way or the other, there is a lack of quality in this guy's background. Now he wants to spread the same low level of professionalism to the rest of the skydiving world. (One other possibility is that none of what he says about himself is true; he has created this persona just to troll.)
For those of us who know to ignore his advice, he is mildly amusing. For a newer jumper who might take him seriously, he could be dangerous. Maybe that's what he wants.
By the way, about the booties, I appreciate the serious replies. It's a good question.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 24, 2010, 7:04 AM
Post #24 of 37 (1949 views)
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Re: [petejones45] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
booties and mantis as soon as the student is safe and able to translate and turn on all axis

start them early so old habits don't get too burned in

I disagree, you shouldn't add foreign equipment until they have been able to confidently do it on their own.

Under your logic you might as well throw a camera on their head to Crazy

so a reasonable response followed by an asshole comment - thanks so much

IMO - "confidently do it on their own" = "able to translate and turn on all axis" - we aren't in conflict except for your little dig.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 24, 2010, 7:18 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] When to begin wearing booties? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't see a need to jump right into either to avoid "developing bad habits". I think Bill was pulling our leg about that.

I was serious, though "bad" habits is tongue in cheek on my part if I said that (I said "old" habits) - if the jumper is wanting to learn mantis and bootie use - best to do it early so they don't have to unlearn the "older training". I'd rather teach mantis to a jumper with 30 jumps any day over a jumper with 2000 jumps with their boxman habits so ingrained in their heads that they have to first unlearn all their habits.

no, "boxman" isn't a bad habit - it's just the "old" habit that's outdated for people that want to be a bit better than just "fun" jumpers

Booties - it's pretty clear when a newbie isn't ready to safely add booties - as soon as it's safe is still a judgment call, but it's not too far into their training - for some/most, it's pretty much right around that A license point when they've demonstrated control on all axis. Others? well,......they'll get there eventually too

For booties, I do a basic body position review, send them up solo, explain line of track and encourage that first so they get excited about it. We talk about knee turns, etc and the extra power they'll experience. We then talk up/down, fwd/back, turns and slides with the body position. I volunteer once in a while some monkeysee/monkeydo jumps where they mimic me in the basics. Yearly, I organize a tunnel camp with one on one mantis training - fortunately, we don't allow GoPros in the tunnel during the camp Tongue. Looks like March again.

I hope we do this right. I think raising good RW folk is a big bonus to a DZ. Using Booties early on helps the jumpers stay excited too.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Nov 24, 2010, 8:44 AM)


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