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Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness

 

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3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 22, 2010, 11:04 AM
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Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness Can't Post

I was jumping in cold weather last saturday (got my A!) and one of the things that came up with other jumpers was visibility.

I wear simple clear plastic goggles which do not have much issues with fogging once the door is open. I've never had trouble seeing in freefall or under canopy.

Another new jumper who was in a different stick was wearing a full face helmet, and on the ground he said that it was very foggy and he had a lot of trouble seeing. He also said this was the second jump where this has happened.

What is the general rule you follow if you are unable to clearly see your altimeter? In this case the jumper did not have an audible, only an analog wrist-mounted alti.

If you cannot see your altitude, do you attempt to do a prolonged wave off and pull in place? Try to turn and track away from other jumpers?

I am going to talk with the instructors at my DZ about this, but I'm curious what others do/would do in that situation.


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 22, 2010, 11:20 AM
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you cannot see your altitude, do you attempt to do a prolonged wave off and pull in place? Try to turn and track away from other jumpers?

If you are doing a solo that would be fine, if you were in a group someone will usually have an alti and you can look at one of theirs or watch them turn and track and you should turn and track as well


Hellis

Nov 22, 2010, 11:50 AM
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Re: [petejones45] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If you cannot see your altitude, do you attempt to do a prolonged wave off and pull in place? Try to turn and track away from other jumpers?

If you are doing a solo that would be fine, if you were in a group someone will usually have an alti and you can look at one of theirs or watch them turn and track and you should turn and track as well

Are you serious?!!!
He clearly says 'What is the general rule you follow if you are unable to clearly see your altimeter?'
Do you really think he means the altimeter has fogged up?
How is he supposed to look at a friends altimeter if he cant see his own.

My god!


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 22, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: [Hellis] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

I mis interpeted his post at first, my point is that when you are in a group you should never just pull in place


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 22, 2010, 12:18 PM
Post #5 of 26 (1336 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He also said this was the second jump where this has happened.

If it's happened before he may want to look at prevention - if it's a full-face with a flip up visor, keeping the visor up till the last possible moment - preferably after the door is opened - can help to minimize the humidity/temperature differential that warm breath on a visor will create (that will then be hit with cold, dry outside air).

As for the situation, keeping an eye on others in the group (assuming the visor hasn't *completely* fogged up) can help - they break off, you break off. If it's not completely fogged up, you might be able to bring the altimeter in towards your face so that it can come into the clear field of vision.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 22, 2010, 12:55 PM
Post #6 of 26 (1314 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like your number one priority is to try to stay within visible range of the other jumpers. I'd hate to think what a funneled exit would be like with limited visibility.

In our case it was pretty cold so I would think even a few breaths with the visor closed would cause condensation. at altitude the board read -23C. those are not temps that we're jumping very frequently.

It definitely makes me feel more confident with my pro-tec and goggles, as I don't have to worry about my breath causing fog.

In his case though, fog prevention aside, an audible doesn't seem like a bad idea as a backup.

in my case, my biggest issue with the cold was losing dexterity in my fingers. the rig I jump had a low profile d-ring SOS handle, so I only need to be able to get a thumb in to pull. if it was pillow handles I would be concerned about extremely numb fingers getting a good enough grip.

What measures does everyone take when jumping in cold weather? Can extreme cold cause altimeters or AADs to read incorrectly?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 22, 2010, 1:10 PM
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What measures does everyone take when jumping in cold weather? Can extreme cold cause altimeters or AADs to read incorrectly?

I'm a wuss and mostly don't jump anymore when it's super-cold (back when I did I was still wearing an open-face with goggles). LaughLaugh But I've been using a full-face for about the last 300 jumps. I've done some fairly cold jumps with my full-face and at most I'll have light fogging just in front of the mouth, not enough to restrict my visibility in freefall. I always pop my visor after I'm under a good canopy.

Do a search on "cold weather jumping" or "winter jumping" - there are a LOT of threads about cold weather jumping, in particular how best to adapt your clothing (short answer, layers!) and gloves (short answer - thin and warm, nothing that restricts your ability to use all of your handles; glove liners are your friend).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Nov 22, 2010, 1:10 PM)


julio_gyn  (A 705)

Nov 22, 2010, 1:20 PM
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

my instructors allways say, if you can't see, wave off and pull. but they say for us students, I don't know the rules in formation....


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 22, 2010, 1:48 PM
Post #9 of 26 (1266 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

By-the-way, a little off (main) topic... and not adding substance necessarily to the OP subject matter but...

Did anyone else happen to notice this OP's recognition of the term "sticks" in his original post? ...I'm gonna give props to whoever/wherever you are getting your instruction at. Someone/somewhere is definitely teaching you right! Cool

Careful what you "pick up" now from in here (and from whom). Your F-to-F instructors are (clearly) your best resource.

Now, back to your originally scheduled programming.
Sorry for the interruption.
Carry on....


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 22, 2010, 6:52 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm gonna give props to whoever/wherever you are getting your instruction at. Someone/somewhere is definitely teaching you right!

Thanks--my new skydiving family at Snohomish have been great! I appreciate the wise words, as well.

edit: spelling


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Nov 22, 2010, 6:52 PM)


AHoyThere  (D 12622)

Nov 23, 2010, 7:00 AM
Post #11 of 26 (1136 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By-the-way, a little off (main) topic... and not adding substance necessarily to the OP subject matter but...

Did anyone else happen to notice this OP's recognition of the term "sticks" in his original post? ...I'm gonna give props to whoever/wherever you are getting your instruction at. Someone/somewhere is definitely teaching you right! Cool

Careful what you "pick up" now from in here (and from whom). Your F-to-F instructors are (clearly) your best resource.

Now, back to your originally scheduled programming.
Sorry for the interruption.
Carry on....

The use of the term 'sticks' jumped out at me. Haven't heard that before, where'd that come from?


huge

Nov 23, 2010, 7:19 AM
Post #12 of 26 (1126 views)
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Re: [AHoyThere] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The use of the term 'sticks' jumped out at me. Haven't heard that before, where'd that come from?
Military would be my best bet. I haven't heard civilians talking about 'sticks'.


JohanW  (D 86318)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:00 AM
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Re: [huge] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The use of the term 'sticks' jumped out at me. Haven't heard that before, where'd that come from?
Military would be my best bet. I haven't heard civilians talking about 'sticks'.
It's quite normal here in the Netherlands. We use quite a number of English words in jumping, and nobody will bat an eye if you term a load a stick.


Ron

Nov 23, 2010, 8:03 AM
Post #14 of 26 (1112 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Another new jumper who was in a different stick was wearing a full face helmet, and on the ground he said that it was very foggy and he had a lot of trouble seeing. He also said this was the second jump where this has happened.

1. Don't put the helmet on until right before exit... this includes wearing it like a hat.

2. Breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth.

I think you will find this will solve most fogging issues.

Quote:
What is the general rule you follow if you are unable to clearly see your altimeter? In this case the jumper did not have an audible, only an analog wrist-mounted alti.

Depends on what you can see and what kind of group you are in.

Solo, I'd give a big wave and pull.

In a group I'd stay till the group leaves and then give a big wave off and pull.

If I can see even a little bit, I'd turn and track then pull. But I also have some more time in sport than you.

The most important thing is to try and be safe....

But talk to *your* instructors.... They will tell you what they think.


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 23, 2010, 8:29 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:32 AM
Post #15 of 26 (1088 views)
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Re: [JohanW] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's quite normal here in the Netherlands. We use quite a number of English words in jumping, and nobody will bat an eye if you term a load a stick.

A load can actually have several sticks.
Sticks can also be considered synonymous with "groups".

For instance, an Otter Load of 20 can have 3 separate sticks of 4-way, 2 3-ways and a tandem (pair). Knowing this in your "spotting planning" (another thing not widely considered it seems any more), and making considerations for it - can be a beneficial tool to have in your (skill set) belt.

I was complimenting an apparent low-timer (and his instructors/instruction/absorbsion of his instruction) on having an actual wherewithal, if not even just knowledge of this.

Good on SOMEBODY for actually TEACHING! Cool


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 23, 2010, 8:32 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it's a big deal if he used the word stick and really don't see how that is better then just using the term group. I have never been to a dropzone that commonly used the term stick. I think everyone would be able to figure out what he is talking about, but it isn't a common sport skydiving term.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:06 AM
Post #17 of 26 (1067 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A load can actually have several sticks.
Sticks can also be considered synonymous with "groups".

Is that in American civilian skydiving use in some areas? I've never heard it.

I don't really know the military, but the use you mentioned doesn't seem to match with the military use either. I could see that if in civilian jumping one dropped multiple groups per pass, and had multiple passes, those who dropped on a particular pass could be called a stick. That would better match military use.

Just asking.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:14 AM
Post #18 of 26 (1065 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never been in the military, so in that regard, I just don't know. It is a term that was shared and taught to me long ago, when being taught spotting technique and how/what also further to consider in spotting - not only just for oneself, but for the entire load. - FWIW.

Did not mean to hijack the OP's original thread or subject matter at hand (visor fogging questions) or anything though, over it. Angelic - It just seemed to indicate to me, the apparent thoroughness, and "well roundedness"/detail taking place of the OP's apparent available to him, in-person, face-to-face training. And as such, I simply wanted to communicate to him to be careful is all, about "advice" he may receive instead... out on the interwebs is all.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Nov 23, 2010, 9:18 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:30 AM
Post #19 of 26 (1054 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Hate to burst your bubble, Grant, but I learned at the same DZ the OP learned and never heard the term stick (used in this context) till today. Could be that he's hearing it from instructors who weren't around when I was, of course.


DanG  (D 22351)

Nov 23, 2010, 9:47 AM
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Re: [Ron] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

And don't forget the option to flip-up the visor, or just rip it off. You may break your helmet, but it's better than killing your friend.


Skyper

Nov 23, 2010, 12:05 PM
Post #21 of 26 (1007 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

general rule: if you don't know how high you are and you cannot know it > pull

general rule: before you pull track away from the group, wave and pull.

and don't wear that helmet if you have the same problem each time. For those days when it's too cold wear something else.


p.s. "That's what I call a 'sticky situation'" Cool


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 23, 2010, 3:48 PM
Post #22 of 26 (971 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

How about avoiding the situation for the first?

Test your visor. If its fogging up clean and treat your visor with anti-fog like "Cat-carp" and test again.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 23, 2010, 7:30 PM
Post #23 of 26 (956 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't really know the military, but the use you mentioned doesn't seem to match with the military use either. I could see that if in civilian jumping one dropped multiple groups per pass, and had multiple passes, those who dropped on a particular pass could be called a stick. That would better match military use.

Generally speaking its used when coordinating groups within a jump. We have two landing areas, one for students and A-B licensed jumpers (east field) and one for tandems and C-D license holders (airport).

On the caravan we need to tell the pilot how many are getting out at each LZ. knowing how many groups or "sticks" makes it easier to know how to split the spot. If there are three groups for the east field, then we'll get the green light earlier, for example (although I always check the spot visually before going out the door!).

In this case, however, I was actually on a 182 load that made 3 passes. The first two were static line students, the last pass myself and my instructor. Behind the 182 was the Caravan, so the jumper that I talked to about with the foggy visor was one of the "sticks" from that load. We all landed within five to ten minutes of each other.

There are a lot of military bases around our area so lots of military come out. "Sticks" is something I've heard jumpers use and it made sense so that's the term I use. Everyone knows what it means even if denotatively we might kind of abuse it a bit.

What is another general term that is used? Group? i.e. "there will be three groups getting out at the east field"?


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Nov 23, 2010, 7:32 PM)


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Nov 24, 2010, 10:46 AM
Post #24 of 26 (919 views)
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Re: [DanG] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And don't forget the option to flip-up the visor, or just rip it off. You may break your helmet, but it's better than killing your friend.
+1

Flip it up or rip it off. Seeing is kinda importantCrazy


rockola  (E 2631)

Nov 25, 2010, 3:14 PM
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Re: [Ron] Foggy Visor and Altitude Awareness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2. Breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth.
This may not help if the helmet does not fit your head properly... in which case you probably shouldn't be jumping it in the first place, of course.

I demoed M and L sized Cookie G2s recently and had issues with fogging. Unfortunately the XL wasn't available. Since neither was a proper fit (both sat comfortably on my head, the M was a squeeze though), my mouth wasn't aligned with the holes on the front. Just something to think about when trying new headgear.


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