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Australia Bans Argus AAD

 

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wildcard451  (D License)

Nov 17, 2010, 7:22 AM
Post #1 of 61 (5656 views)
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Australia Bans Argus AAD Can't Post

http://www.uspa.org/...abid/59/Default.aspx


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Nov 17, 2010, 8:10 AM
Post #2 of 61 (5571 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post


And the BPA too... as mentioned in this post with a link to the BPA notice.

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3996527#3996527


petejones45  (C License)

Nov 17, 2010, 9:25 AM
Post #3 of 61 (5510 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

are all dropzones apf affiliated? because this bulletin would only apply to those ones that are


LavaLady  (F 387)

Nov 17, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #4 of 61 (5400 views)
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Re: [petejones45] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

All civilian operations (bar one) are APF affiliated in Australia.


rhys  (D 95)

Nov 19, 2010, 9:55 PM
Post #5 of 61 (5122 views)
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Re: [LavaLady] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

anyone know the nitty gritties on this?


LavaLady  (F 387)

Nov 19, 2010, 10:29 PM
Post #6 of 61 (5113 views)
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Re: [rhys] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.apf.asn.au/...ectives/default.aspx

Two docs here. The TD04/2010 and an explanatory event history.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 20, 2010, 9:12 AM
Post #7 of 61 (5046 views)
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Re: [LavaLady] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.apf.asn.au/...ectives/default.aspx

Two docs here. The TD04/2010 and an explanatory event history.

And THIS:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3825061

 


rhys  (D 95)

Nov 21, 2010, 1:39 AM
Post #8 of 61 (4956 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And THIS:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3825061

forgot about that one.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 22, 2010, 6:06 AM
Post #9 of 61 (4834 views)
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Re: [rhys] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

forgot about that one.

Yes. A fatality in Poland where the jumper wore Argus. The above link directs you to photos from Polish government report and the unofficial translation of key findings.


 


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Nov 24, 2010, 3:49 AM
Post #10 of 61 (4681 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I posted this on the http://skysurfer.com.au/forum thread relating to the Argus grounding.

So after reading the TD again I have some questions about what is being done to reslove this issue.

~ from the argus events letter

Quote:
I wrote “ARGUS Cutter Review” paper in June 2010 outlining my theory on the Polish Fatality that was sent to PIA Technical committee and circulated to all the members by Dave Singer, Chair PIA Technical Committee, as a discussion paper on 30 Sept 2010. The report was also sent to Aviacom on 29 Sept 2010. In my attached email I requested what the course of action would be in light of the second incident that occurred in Portugal. As yet there has been no response.

The day before this was sent to Aviacom, Aviacom sent this to the APF

Quote:
On 28 Sept 2010 Aviacom issued a Letter of Demand to the APF that it lifts all restrictions on the use of the Argus and cites that our Director Rigging Mr. Rory Hatchett has a vested interest in suppressing the use of the ARGUS AAD and that the APF has previously supported the sale and use of Airtec’s CYPRES AAD. Mr. Groots also states that the issue of their Service Bulletin SB AMM0050910/2 removes any excuse the APF may have to discriminate the ARGUS.

So the APF responds to this reqeust by Aviacom with their theory on what happened in the Polish Fatality and asked what the course of action would be in light of the secong incident in portugal. What exactly was Aviacom asked to do by the APF? or were they just asking what Aviacom was doing about it? Is it true that both of these cutters were affected by the Argus SB and the new replacement cutter is Aviacoms response to these incidents?

Quote:
The Aviacom SB on cutter replacement has not as yet demonstrated that it is superior to the cutter involved in the Polish fatality. The APF and TAG await more detail to review its initial Technical Directive.

Quote:
it is my recommendation that all ARGUS AADs be grounded until Aviacom is able to replace the cutters in the ARGUS AAD with a demonstratively superior and reliable cutter. Reliability testing to include tests in packed parachutes representative of common general pack designs to ensure that mechanical interaction between pack flap grommets and spring pilot-chutes is taken into account.
This should be a standard test requirement of all AAD manufacturers and equipment manufacturer who approve their fitting to their equipment.

Did the APF and TAG request this information from Aviacom at anytime before issuing this TD and let them know that if this information wasn't recieved the Argus would be grounded.

What is Aviacom doing to comply with the requests in the last quote and has Aviacom been advised of these requirements by the APF?

"This should be a standard test requirement of all AAD manufacturers and equipment manufacturer who approve their fitting to their equipment." Has the APF required this of any other manufactuer of AAD yet?

I've Emailed both the APF and Aviacom asking them similar questions. Should be interesting to see what, if any reply I recieve.

Aviacoms website says they will be releasing documents next week as to why the Argus has been banned in australia as well as information regarding the Polish and Portugal Incidents.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Nov 26, 2010, 2:17 AM
Post #11 of 61 (4525 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Argus released this statement yesterday
http://tools.emailgarage.com/...9Yg~~/ViewEmail.ashx

pretty useless if you ask me. They don't seem to be doing anything to solve the issue and get Argus owners back in the air.


kellja2001  (C 107711)

Nov 26, 2010, 3:52 AM
Post #12 of 61 (4499 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

On UK Skydiver, John Horne just linked a very interesting document... its about 15 posts down on this page:

http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk/...rounded/page__st__20


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 26, 2010, 5:59 AM
Post #13 of 61 (4460 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that there are lots of attacks against their competition also in that email and the linked documents.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 26, 2010, 6:47 AM
Post #14 of 61 (4430 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They don't seem to be doing anything to solve the issue and get Argus owners back in the air.

I didn't realize that rigs made today don't work correctly without an AAD.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Nov 26, 2010, 8:33 AM
Post #15 of 61 (4397 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems that there are lots of attacks against their competition also in that email and the linked documents.

On the other hand, it is also possible to interpret the Aviacom paper as a cry for a level playing field.

If a circular-knife cutter is a problem, maybe all circular-knife cutters should be banned? If not, why not?

The APF "Argus Event History" cites US FAA AC-105-2C as stating that “assembled components must function properly and may not interfere with the operation of other components”.

Taking that to the logical conclusion says to me that any rig with a cutter that could lock a pilot chute should be grounded, since we can never know for sure that any cutter will work properly until it actually fires.

There are now several rigs with the AAD cutter positioned such that a failed cutter could prevent extracting the pin from beginning the deployment. Should rigs like that be banned as well? If not, why not?


Unstable  (D 28930)

Nov 26, 2010, 8:41 AM
Post #16 of 61 (4390 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The APF "Argus Event History" cites US FAA AC-105-2C as stating that “assembled components must function properly and may not interfere with the operation of other components”.

Taking that to the logical conclusion says to me that any rig with a cutter that could lock a pilot chute should be grounded, since we can never know for sure that any cutter will work properly until it actually fires.

There are now several rigs with the AAD cutter positioned such that a failed cutter could prevent extracting the pin from beginning the deployment. Should rigs like that be banned as well? If not, why not?

I agree with your devils-advocate comments here ~ it does seem that when a Cypres Fails, not much happens.


skydivepete  (D License)

Nov 26, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #17 of 61 (4319 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They don't seem to be doing anything to solve the issue and get Argus owners back in the air.

It seems they do:

Quote:
Following their meetings of the 25th November 2010, the Riggers’ Sub-Committee and the
STC have now decided that rigs fitted with Argus AADs may now be put back into service
provided the Argus AAD is fitted with a cutter manufactured after the beginning of
September 2007 and may only be fitted to equipment authorised by both the AAD
manufacturer and container manufacturer and fitted in a manner acceptable to them.
Attachments: BPA S INFO 1-10.pdf (31.1 KB)


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Nov 26, 2010, 6:17 PM
Post #18 of 61 (4252 views)
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Re: [skydivepete] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

I was just going to post that link. Yes the BPA has decided that the argus will not be grounded there.

The APF (Australia) still has the Argus grounded.

The APF didn't even notify Argus that they were having a meeting to discuss grounding the Argus. Mad


(This post was edited by hcsvader on Nov 26, 2010, 6:19 PM)


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Nov 26, 2010, 6:18 PM
Post #19 of 61 (4250 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
They don't seem to be doing anything to solve the issue and get Argus owners back in the air.

I didn't realize that rigs made today don't work correctly without an AAD.

Not if you jump at a DZ with mandatory AAD's


CrazyAl  (C 3179)

Nov 28, 2010, 8:17 AM
Post #20 of 61 (4139 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

It is obvious that Argus was outlawed by the APF with a very weak investigation. If this is how they continue to deal with this matter, I think they're showing a lack of respect to all their APF members, DZOs, and jumpers.

Also I have read peoples post with issues towards the circular cutters. I'm nearly positive that both the Vigil and Argus have these? Not 1000% sure but I do recall this during the product testing we did between all the current AAD manufactures in 09. All the cutters we tested cut the loops with ease.

Further more all Argus skydivers need to speak out to the APF. Petition your Association demanding Argus be put back into service following the same guidelines as the BPA.. Or demand them to meet with Karel Groots, I'd say Argus deserves a FAIR TRIAL


Bolas  (D License)

Nov 28, 2010, 9:11 AM
Post #21 of 61 (4118 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are now several rigs with the AAD cutter positioned such that a failed cutter could prevent extracting the pin from beginning the deployment. Should rigs like that be banned as well? If not, why not?

If there were/are such rigs that an AAD failure would prevent the reserve ripcord from being pulled by the jumper or prevent the reserve from opening, the rig needs to be grounded, not the AAD.


firemedic  (D 29776)

Nov 28, 2010, 11:50 AM
Post #22 of 61 (4073 views)
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Re: [Bolas] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

If there were/are such rigs that an AAD failure would prevent the reserve ripcord from being pulled by the jumper or prevent the reserve from opening, the rig needs to be grounded, not the AAD.
There are rigs out there that would "lock" the pilot chute in the contaner if the cutter jams on the loop. Talon, Telesis, and VooDoo, to name some of the rigs I've done repacks on, have the cutter placement on a side flap that rests on top of the PC. IMO this is a design flaw that needs to be corrected.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 28, 2010, 11:58 AM
Post #23 of 61 (4067 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi medic,

Quote:
There are rigs out there that would "lock" the pilot chute in the contaner if the cutter jams on the loop.

I have thought a lot about this; and I willing admit that it is a big IF. Shocked

Any rig in which the cutter is above the pilot chute or above the bag has this potential. As does the Racer & the Reflex.

The probability is almost zero but not completely at zero.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS) I would hate to be on the committee trying to write a standard for TSO-authorization of an AAD. I suggest not going 'there.' Unsure


firemedic  (D 29776)

Nov 28, 2010, 12:10 PM
Post #24 of 61 (4061 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

The probability is almost zero but not completely at zero.

Just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS) I would hate to be on the committee trying to write a standard for TSO-authorization of an AAD. I suggest not going 'there.' Unsure
I have no intention of opening up that "can of worms." As far as the very big "if" a cutter could jam on a loop. JMO, the "if" is big enough that I won't jump a rig with a cutter mounted above the freebag or could lock the through loop, in the case of the Racer.


(This post was edited by firemedic on Nov 28, 2010, 12:41 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
Post #25 of 61 (4048 views)
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Re: [CrazyAl] Australia Bans Argus AAD [In reply to] Can't Post

>It is obvious that Argus was outlawed by the APF with a very weak investigation.

Agreed. However, it is not their role to prove that the Argus is safe. It is their role to determine that it MIGHT kill skydivers. They have done so.

It is now in Argus's responsibility to provide a thorough investigation to both determine the cause and ensure it will not happen again.

Take the case of a commercial airliner whose rudder often falls off. It is not the job of the FAA (or other national authority) to determine why the rudder falls off and/or to fix the problem. It is merely to determine that yes, the rudder often falls off, and must be fixed.


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