Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving!

 

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dbcooperfan  (Student)

Oct 11, 2010, 6:24 AM
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17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! Can't Post

http://www.wdtn.com/...anding-in-middletown

Very sad situation and I hope the girl makes a full recovery. My thoughts and prayers go out to her and her family.

I have voiced my opinion on the owner of this DZ as some of you know. However, as a skydiver none of us want to see this happen no matter how you feel about other DZ's.

So, what happens now to Start and the skydiving industry? I know 17 it is 'allowed' by the USPA with parental consent, but should it be done....NO!
18 years old is an adult. Anything under 18 is just a child that is having their rights signed away. This has been going on since the USPA stepped aside and washed their hands of it. The USPA need to put their food down and say no one over 18 period!!!!

Any thoughts?


(This post was edited by dbcooperfan on Oct 11, 2010, 6:47 AM)


format  (B 15348)

Oct 11, 2010, 6:52 AM
Post #2 of 143 (4324 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
At 16 1/2, I didn't get parental consent.
It hurts when thinking of different life outcomes and therefor - I am sorry for it. (didn't know what 'faking' is)

On the other hand, I wouldn't give consent to minor ONLY if there's obvious stupidity, ignorance and underestimation of dangers involved.


piisfish

Oct 11, 2010, 7:01 AM
Post #3 of 143 (4310 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know 17 it is 'allowed' by the USPA with parental consent, but should it be done....NO!
18 years old is an adult. Anything under 18 is just a child that is having their rights signed away. Any thoughts?
yes I have thoughts... in your country :
-what is the age for flying a plane ?
-what is the age for driving a car ?
-what is the age for shooting a gun ?

In my country, you can start skydiving at the age of 16, and it is not a problem. The major problem for them young ones is getting the money to do so.


ManagingPrime

Oct 11, 2010, 7:11 AM
Post #4 of 143 (4283 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is my home DZ. Can someone please PM me the name?

Note: The younger jumpers i've come in contact with are very competent. Bad weekend for incidents. Frown


dbcooperfan  (Student)

Oct 11, 2010, 7:15 AM
Post #5 of 143 (4268 views)
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17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my buddys said that this should be posted this over in the Incidents Forum. Frown

I have it in there now so more can chime in on this issue.

If one of the moderators reads this thread, please remove it from the S&T forum so the only one is in the Incicent Forum. Thx.


MorfiusX  (D 32647)

Oct 11, 2010, 7:18 AM
Post #6 of 143 (4255 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people just shouldn't skydive, regardless of age. This was one of those people.

I am not at liberty to discuss details of the incident. But after going through the AFF course at Start (doing my A license check dive today), I will say the instructors there are top notch and have more than fully trained me for this sport as required by the USPA. In other words, they have done a great job instructing me through my 22 jumps.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 11, 2010, 7:19 AM
Post #7 of 143 (4253 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anything under 18 is just a child that is having their rights signed away. This has been going on since the USPA stepped aside and washed their hands of it. The USPA need to put their food down and say no one over 18 period!!!!

Any thoughts?

First off, I think you meant "no one under 18, right?
Second, had she been 18, are you certain the outcome would have been different?
Seems to me the only point of valid discussion isn't the decision-making process of a 17 vs 18 y/o, but rather the liability concerns for all parties involved?


dbcooperfan  (Student)

Oct 11, 2010, 7:34 AM
Post #8 of 143 (4220 views)
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Re: [DSE] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi DSE

No one under 18 correct. And it is a huge liability if you go under the legal age.

I posted this in the Incident forum. Please lock this one down/delete it if you would so all will go there.

Thanks


Ron

Oct 11, 2010, 7:51 AM
Post #9 of 143 (4195 views)
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Re: [piisfish] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
yes I have thoughts... in your country :
-what is the age for flying a plane ?
-what is the age for driving a car ?
-what is the age for shooting a gun ?

You can Start learning to fly as soon as you can reach the controls, but you cannot solo until 16. To get the license 17.

Driving depends on the State... 14 years to 17 years, while most States have a graduated licensing law that gives more rights as the driver gets older.

Shooting. Like flying you can shoot when you can hold the weapon. But you may not purchase a rifle till 18 and a handgun till 21.

So basically 17 to fly, 16 to drive, 18 to shoot.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 11, 2010, 8:12 AM
Post #10 of 143 (4169 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have mod rights for this forum, so can't lock/move the thread.
However, I tend to think this thread is in the right place anyway, so that Incidents doesn't get bogged down in the morality/ethic of under 18 y/o skydiving.

I don't have a problem with the 17 y/o skydiving.
For my children to ride motox, a waiver has to be signed. For them to play football, same answer.
High school football hardly hasn't had a year without a fatality in recorded history (712 deaths since 1930)
Thousands of spinal injuries/permanent damage.
My point being, parents are already signing the rights of their children away. Hopefully it's with some forethought.
We have 9 y/o doing tandems in Australia and New Zealand. How many incidents occur there? Not many.
(not that I'm recommending 9 y/o for AFF, merely making a point about parent/child rights).

It's the training and culture that contribute more than thought process and maturity, IMO. Certainly... age contributes to maturity and rational thought, yet even the most seasoned, experienced (older) skydivers have incidents like these. Is it any more or less tragic that the skydiver in this case is 17 vs 18 or 45? Do a few months convert this from a tragedy to "another incident due to a low turn?"
I think the "huge liability" for age of majority cases is becoming pretty muddy with all the "extreme" activities in which youth are participating with parental consent.
If a parent can't consent for their 17y/o child to skydive, then by that same argument they also cannot consent to that same 17 y/o having high risk surgery, right?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 11, 2010, 9:03 AM
Post #11 of 143 (4126 views)
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Re: [MorfiusX] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some people just shouldn't skydive, regardless of age. This was one of those people.

You do know that at some point in the future when you make a mistake while skydiving (and you will), someone out there is going to point right back to this post and turn your words against you, right?

Just checking.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 11, 2010, 1:42 PM
Post #12 of 143 (3992 views)
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Re: [MorfiusX] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Some people just shouldn't skydive, regardless of age. This was one of those people.

And you are qualified to state this, as you have - how?

You also realize that with this above statement, you are DIAMETRICALLY opposed, and in direct conflict (i.e. calling into question, severely) the meat of your then very next statement, here:

Quote:
I will say the instructors there are top notch...

Okay then, so - - - which is it?
If someone completely untrained, and "unqualified" (as your profile at least indicates you are neither a skydiving instructor, nor specialized/trained psychiatrist maybe, etc.) could apparently recognize this FJC Student's clear and obvious dis-qualifiers from (or should have been disqualified from being allowed to) skydiving - what, do you really think in essence, you are saying about her instruction/instructors then?

I realize that you are "new", and maybe you just don't "get" the implications / ramifications of your statements (posts) here. Sheer newby exuberance to post in public places saying (in essence) "ooh, ooh - look at me, and what I KNOW" can (and has) gotten at times, to the best of us. So I will give you a chance to explain.


So then - okay, here's your chance...
Please do... Elaborate / EXPLAIN!

If you've got something more specific, enlightening, or possibly learned to share with us all, well then (again) - please do.


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 11, 2010, 1:58 PM)


ManagingPrime

Oct 11, 2010, 1:57 PM
Post #13 of 143 (3968 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
....exuberance to post in public places saying (in essence) "ooh, ooh - look at me, and what I KNOW"

Says the guy with an Aristotle quote in his sig line.Tongue


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 11, 2010, 2:02 PM
Post #14 of 143 (3960 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Does my edit now make my point maybe just a bit more clear for you, perhaps?

Tongue back atcha! Wink


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 11, 2010, 2:07 PM
Post #15 of 143 (3948 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way - even after over 10 years here, and 15 active in this sport, just "for what it's worth"... I still have lower post #'s than actual jumps. Tongue


format  (B 15348)

Oct 11, 2010, 2:14 PM
Post #16 of 143 (3930 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I guess that should be offensive to guys with 4000 jumps and 40000 postsLaugh


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Oct 11, 2010, 2:23 PM
Post #17 of 143 (3920 views)
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Re: [DSE] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We have 9 y/o doing tandems in Australia and New Zealand.

And don't forget Finn...

http://mosman-daily.whereilive.com.au/...youngest-to-skydive/


dbcooperfan  (Student)

Oct 11, 2010, 2:40 PM
Post #18 of 143 (3893 views)
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Re: [johnmatrix] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

I will admit that is really cool but, he made a jump with his father, so who is he going to sue if something did in fact wrong? (not to mention it was in Aus.)

To piggyback off that story, I know Start was taking 'minors' on Tandems as well. They had it in big bold letters on the front page of their site "You must be 16 years of age to perform a tandem skydive at Start" and UPT had to stop them from doing it. It was very important that UPT stepped up and did that. Why? Because UPT would have been the ones with the deeper pockets and the family would more than likley go after them if anything would have happend. Just an example of why the age should be 18 across the board.

In this case however, who will be at fault? (because some will ALWAYS be at fault).

I feel the main concern here is how this is going to impact the skydiving world?


(This post was edited by dbcooperfan on Oct 11, 2010, 2:41 PM)


Rover  (D 241)

Oct 11, 2010, 3:03 PM
Post #19 of 143 (3857 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

If consent was required and given, and the person in question went on her own free will, I see no problem.

Why pick on the age of the person? What other stereotypes can we go for? The fact that she is female? Maybe a blonde to boot. Cool Maybe we should ban old people from jumping because their bones are more brittle, or they're heading towards senility. Mad

She jumped cause she wanted to. Took the chance that we all take and unfortunately got bitten. Shit happens, and when it does, quite often, the PC brigade jump on their high horses and set to work to change things to their own myopic views.

I wish the person concerned a speedy recovery, and wish all those with their own little axes to grind would just go and get a life.

I did my 1st jump 6 weeks after my 16th birthday, and every day I understand how life changing that has been.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 11, 2010, 3:05 PM
Post #20 of 143 (3848 views)
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Re: [Rover] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

>Why pick on the age of the person?

Because at some point people are too young to understand the risks associated with skydiving.

> Maybe we should ban old people from jumping

I have, on occasion.


Rover  (D 241)

Oct 11, 2010, 3:13 PM
Post #21 of 143 (3837 views)
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Re: [billvon] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

What about the 'risks' of marriage. Pirate

South Carolina: If you are under 18, you will need a certified copy of your birth certificate and a notarized statement of parental consent. The minimum age for a female is 14 and it is 16 for a male.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 11, 2010, 3:25 PM
Post #22 of 143 (3820 views)
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Re: [Rover] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

>What about the 'risks' of marriage.

Same thing; at some point you are too young to make such a commitment. Which is why there's a minimum age.

>South Carolina: If you are under 18, you will need a certified copy of
>your birth certificate and a notarized statement of parental consent. The
>minimum age for a female is 14 and it is 16 for a male.

This would be a better topic for Speaker's Corner than S+T.


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 11, 2010, 3:30 PM)


trishkebab  (B 32556)

Oct 11, 2010, 3:51 PM
Post #23 of 143 (3796 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it change anyone's opinion if you knew that her father was in the first jump course with her?
It would be tough to legally draw the line in terms of a skydiving age limit when you can fly a plane at 16 or 17. How can you tell someone they can't fly a parachute then? You're the pilot in command either way.


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Oct 11, 2010, 4:05 PM
Post #24 of 143 (3780 views)
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Re: [dbcooperfan] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I will admit that is really cool but, he made a jump with his father, so who is he going to sue if something did in fact wrong? (not to mention it was in Aus.)

I was a little worried about this stuff too but I've heard it's the kids who nag the living bejesus out of their skydiver parents that end up doing this. In that case I think its a pretty cool thing to do.

I did my first AFF at 16 and it was the best thing I ever did. I'm still not sure how my dad talked my mum into letting me do it though.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Oct 11, 2010, 4:43 PM
Post #25 of 143 (3753 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] 17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By the way - even after over 10 years here, and 15 active in this sport, just "for what it's worth"... I still have lower post #'s than actual jumps. Tongue

+1

Cool


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