Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
High speed shutdown

 

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YISkyDive  (D License)

Sep 21, 2010, 10:11 AM
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High speed shutdown Can't Post

A few years ago I saw a pretty neat trick and am wondering if anyone has video they could point me too...

A canopy pilot was coming out of his swoop, moving at roughly 20 - 25mph with, I would estimate, 100ft more to go. He toggle stabbed the shit out of his VX and basically used the canopy as a drag chute and let his hands back up to come to a stop and stand up (there was maybe 5mph head wind).

I'm not talking about a zone acc. stall but if anyone has video of a trick like this I would be interested.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Sep 21, 2010, 11:38 PM
Post #2 of 32 (2841 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A few years ago I saw a pretty neat trick and am wondering if anyone has video they could point me too...

A canopy pilot was coming out of his swoop, moving at roughly 20 - 25mph with, I would estimate, 100ft more to go. He toggle stabbed the shit out of his VX and basically used the canopy as a drag chute and let his hands back up to come to a stop and stand up (there was maybe 5mph head wind).

I'm not talking about a zone acc. stall but if anyone has video of a trick like this I would be interested.
Brian Germain mentioned some trick like this as "hokey hockey".


fkaros  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 3:30 AM
Post #3 of 32 (2808 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE9r42WeekY

A pretty good example at about 2:40


(This post was edited by fkaros on Sep 22, 2010, 3:35 AM)


mx19  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 4:29 AM
Post #4 of 32 (2789 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Brian Germain mentioned some trick like this as "hockey stop".

There you goWink


(This post was edited by mx19 on Sep 22, 2010, 4:30 AM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 4:39 AM
Post #5 of 32 (2781 views)
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Re: [fkaros] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE9r42WeekY

A pretty good example at about 2:40

That sort of stall and fly technique for zone-acc is highly dangerous for all be the most advanced pilots (even then its still hard to do safely).

As for shutting down a normal swoop, I'm more of a fan of putting feet on the ground and then more of a rear riser stall (while level and at the end) to drop the canopy behind my head. To me, its easier to keep from launching off the ground.


BMFin

Sep 22, 2010, 4:51 AM
Post #6 of 32 (2779 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

Theres also one pretty aggressive rear riser stall on this video @ 0:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKPlsxq9NPc


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 22, 2010, 4:58 AM
Post #7 of 32 (2776 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A canopy pilot was coming out of his swoop

Do you mean coming out of the dive? What are describing doesn't make sense unless the guy was stabbing out of the corner.

If you're in a dive, you can stab the toggles and all of the energy goes to arrest the dive. Once you roll level, if you maintain the input, you go back up. If you release the input, you might just be able to put your feet down.

If you're already level with enough speed to go another 100 feet, and you stab the toggles, you'll shoot back up in the air. If you watch guys do a zone accuracy stall, you'll notice they pop up before they get the canopy to stall and drop them straight down.

What you may have seen was a guy who didn't really have 100 ft to go. He might have been 'out of gas' and hit the bottom of the toggle stroke. At this point, the canopy in a low energy state will not casue a pop up and just drop behind the jumper as it begins to stall.

If the jumper allows the stall to continue, it will hit the gournd behind the jumper, and mostly like pull him down backwards in the process.

If the jumper throws his hands up, the canopy can return to 'controlled' flight, but it will lack the power to support the weight of the jumper. Provided that the jumper puts his feet down as the canopy coems back over head, he can avoid being pulled over backwards.

The concept is that if you have the energy to go another 100 feet, there's no way to stop the canopy with doing something with that energy. If you insist on going in a striaght line, that energy makes the canopy pop up, no way around it.

Now if you want to stop right away, say to avoid an obstacle if your swoop is going too long, Brian Germains 'hockey stop' is the way to go. The hockey stop is basically a hard carve to either side where you turn as hard as you can while maintaining level flight. What this does is take all of the energy your canopy has and applies to to making the carve, not going in a striaght line. If you dedicate a huge amount of the energy to the turn, your overall distance travelled forward will be reduced, so the manuver both turns you away from the obstacle and consumes the majority of the energy your canopy has helping you to get stopped quicker.

The reason it's called a 'hockey stop' is because just like a sudden stop while on ice skates, you turn your body sideways to the line of travel while performing the manuver.

It's really a valuable skill, and one that every swooper should learn once they have a grasp on how to carve. It's just a matter of taking the carve to the highest degree and holding it there until the canopy is 'spent'. It's an absolute 'must have' before attempting to swoop in an unfamiliar area such as an off-landing. If you find yourself down on the deck looking at an obstacle you didn't see from 1000ft, you need a 'tool' to solve that problem, and that's the 'hockey stop'. Until you can perform that one with a good degree of success, off landings should not include a swoop.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 5:27 AM
Post #8 of 32 (2765 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
A canopy pilot was coming out of his swoop

Do you mean coming out of the dive? What are describing doesn't make sense unless the guy was stabbing out of the corner.

If you're in a dive, you can stab the toggles and all of the energy goes to arrest the dive. Once you roll level, if you maintain the input, you go back up. If you release the input, you might just be able to put your feet down.

If you're already level with enough speed to go another 100 feet, and you stab the toggles, you'll shoot back up in the air. If you watch guys do a zone accuracy stall, you'll notice they pop up before they get the canopy to stall and drop them straight down.

What you may have seen was a guy who didn't really have 100 ft to go. He might have been 'out of gas' and hit the bottom of the toggle stroke. At this point, the canopy in a low energy state will not casue a pop up and just drop behind the jumper as it begins to stall.

If the jumper allows the stall to continue, it will hit the gournd behind the jumper, and mostly like pull him down backwards in the process.

If the jumper throws his hands up, the canopy can return to 'controlled' flight, but it will lack the power to support the weight of the jumper. Provided that the jumper puts his feet down as the canopy coems back over head, he can avoid being pulled over backwards.

The concept is that if you have the energy to go another 100 feet, there's no way to stop the canopy with doing something with that energy. If you insist on going in a striaght line, that energy makes the canopy pop up, no way around it.

Now if you want to stop right away, say to avoid an obstacle if your swoop is going too long, Brian Germains 'hockey stop' is the way to go. The hockey stop is basically a hard carve to either side where you turn as hard as you can while maintaining level flight. What this does is take all of the energy your canopy has and applies to to making the carve, not going in a striaght line. If you dedicate a huge amount of the energy to the turn, your overall distance travelled forward will be reduced, so the manuver both turns you away from the obstacle and consumes the majority of the energy your canopy has helping you to get stopped quicker.

The reason it's called a 'hockey stop' is because just like a sudden stop while on ice skates, you turn your body sideways to the line of travel while performing the manuver.

It's really a valuable skill, and one that every swooper should learn once they have a grasp on how to carve. It's just a matter of taking the carve to the highest degree and holding it there until the canopy is 'spent'. It's an absolute 'must have' before attempting to swoop in an unfamiliar area such as an off-landing. If you find yourself down on the deck looking at an obstacle you didn't see from 1000ft, you need a 'tool' to solve that problem, and that's the 'hockey stop'. Until you can perform that one with a good degree of success, off landings should not include a swoop.

Everyone: Thank you for the replies.

Dave - he was not in the corner. Mid to end swoop - and the more I think about it the more I think it was a "hockey " stop. I only had about 100 jumps when I saw it so Jesus that was a loooooooong time ago.

Does anyone have video to point to the hockey stop? I'm at work and unfortunate not able to boot up youtube but I will check out the clips when I get home. How much lateral space does this use?

For me - I've been shortening my swoops when necessary by very aggressively doing a hard super man while switching from rears to toggles as soon as I determine I'm long. I drag my feet as anchors into the ground to help bleed of some energy. Usually takes 75 - 100ft off but I presume there is a better way of shortening the swoop which seems to be mentioned above.


(This post was edited by YISkyDive on Sep 22, 2010, 5:28 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 22, 2010, 5:43 AM
Post #9 of 32 (2757 views)
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Re: [YISkyDive] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'm not sure of any hockey stop videos. It's generally an emegency manuver, and there's not always video on those.

In terms of shutting down a swoop, first off where are you swooping that you need to do this on a regular basis? You should never swoop toward any object that's not 100's of feet beyond your best swoop. If you're regularly swooping into a 'dead end', the best advice is to find someplace esle to swoop. A botched set-up, or reduction in wind (or increase if doing a downwinder) can change your needs for run off space to a high degree. If there is a wall at the end of your swoop, sooner or later you'll be in it.

If you do need to shut it down, learn the hockey stop, or use the technique aggiedave mentioned. Just sit down, and rear riser stall the canopy, Sitting down will eat gobs of energy with the friction of the ground, and the rear riser stall is the quickest way to get the canopy behind you and working as a 'drag chute'.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 9:27 AM
Post #10 of 32 (2698 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

Our DZ plain and simple sucks for swooping. We have a tiny advanced CP landing area and occassionally if you are a touch high then your going to run onto the ramp... not a big deal but would be nice to not have to run it out on the ramp.

I have over 1600+ Velo jumps in this landing area so I'm not overally concerened but I like the idea of know this emergency manuver. For having that many high performance landings I should know how to do it :)


raymod2  (D 25630)

Sep 22, 2010, 10:55 AM
Post #11 of 32 (2673 views)
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Re: [fkaros] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

That was an impressive landing in the video that fkaros posted. I am surprised he stood that one up. I doubt he could have pulled it off on a dirt or grass landing area, though.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Sep 22, 2010, 5:19 PM
Post #12 of 32 (2570 views)
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Re: [raymod2] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, that's just asking for a broken ankle Smile


xxayrx  (C 38330)

Sep 22, 2010, 5:39 PM
Post #13 of 32 (2564 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

you're right. I tried it just off the grass at Perris and scrambled my foot....I don't recommend the manouver.


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 22, 2010, 6:14 PM
Post #14 of 32 (2552 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, that's just asking for a broken ankle Smile

Funny, I didn't seen an iPhone in his hand while landing...I'm sure someone will bring it to him so he can post from zone 3...


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Sep 22, 2010, 6:32 PM
Post #15 of 32 (2546 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

A-hole Smile

I use a blackberry, and I texted on my way to the hospital Cool


garywainwright  (D 11021)

Sep 23, 2010, 12:29 PM
Post #16 of 32 (2454 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

how about 1:53 on this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq7bYKHo1-E

This is a speed run from Jay Moledzki - at this competition at Lake Wales the best guys were sometimes getting to the runway off the left hand side of the screen (it wasn't a problem for me! I Never got anywhere near it!) At first I thought he had just almost stalled - when I looked at it again though I thought he was deliberately stopping before the runway. Never got the chance to ask him though.


morris

Sep 30, 2010, 10:14 AM
Post #17 of 32 (2215 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In terms of shutting down a swoop, first off where are you swooping that you need to do this on a regular basis? You should never swoop toward any object that's not 100's of feet beyond your best swoop. If you're regularly swooping into a 'dead end', the best advice is to find someplace esle to swoop. A botched set-up, or reduction in wind (or increase if doing a downwinder) can change your needs for run off space to a high degree. If there is a wall at the end of your swoop, sooner or later you'll be in it.

If you do need to shut it down, learn the hockey stop, or use the technique aggiedave mentioned. Just sit down, and rear riser stall the canopy, Sitting down will eat gobs of energy with the friction of the ground, and the rear riser stall is the quickest way to get the canopy behind you and working as a 'drag chute'.

I absolutely agree - and I even agree more since last weekend!
I also would like to mention that "never head towards an obstacle" holds even more true/is even more important if you are popping up to go for ultimate distance. If you are up there in the first or second floor, 20ft from the ground, floating at high speed, you cant just put your feet on the ground and stall the canopy or initiate an extrem carve to kill energy and distance. The only thing you can do (to my best knowledge) is to release a little bit of brake input to make the canopy start descent (thats what I did) - but this will result in a touchdown (actually it felt more like an impact) while still traveling at a high forward speed and, way worse, with a pretty high rate of descent.
Ive been lucky, impact resulted in a forward somersault - stupid but unhurt...


morris

Oct 1, 2010, 4:25 AM
Post #18 of 32 (2133 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The concept is that if you have the energy to go another 100 feet, there's no way to stop the canopy with doing something with that energy. If you insist on going in a striaght line, that energy makes the canopy pop up, no way around it.

To avoid popping up you can use the energy for a) carving, b) going for a forward somersault or c) a blindman followed by a backward somersault.


yoink

Oct 1, 2010, 11:25 AM
Post #19 of 32 (2071 views)
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Re: [morris] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
c) a blindman followed by a backward somersault.


that's worth extra points for difficulty if you land it.

Laugh


morris

Oct 2, 2010, 12:57 AM
Post #20 of 32 (2000 views)
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Re: [yoink] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
that's worth extra points for difficulty if you land it.

Absolutely!

And by the way, I recommend using an rds (not necessarily full, but at least a removable slider) for any kind of somersault landings, no matter whether forward or backward. The risers should be as far apart from each other as possible - this makes passing through the center A-lines with your legs easier!


morris

Oct 2, 2010, 1:04 AM
Post #21 of 32 (1998 views)
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Re: [morris] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot to mention that an extra long cheststrap is also a nice option to have if you are serious about somersault-freestyle.


buff  (D 30567)

Oct 5, 2010, 3:28 PM
Post #22 of 32 (1874 views)
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Re: [morris] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

To avoid popping up you can use the energy for a) carving, b) going for a forward somersault or c) a blindman followed by a backward somersault.

New at this but this weekend I hit the gates and was down the lane and popped it up. Was not sure what to do at that point so I just held it where it was and didn't get the speed bled off. Found out I can't run that fast but got style pointsWink

I was told at that point, "you need to give some back to the canopy." You mention a carve, can this be used once you've popped it up or will you still get dumped?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 6, 2010, 5:57 AM
Post #23 of 32 (1783 views)
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Re: [buff] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In any case, under any canopy, the rule is always a full and complete flare before touchdown.

When you pop up like that, what you do is require the canopy to pitch nose down to get you back to the ground. At this point, you are 'behind' the canopy, in that you physically swing behind the wing to allow the dive to occur.

Now you are diving back toward the groud (no matter how slight, you are still in a dive) at a speed something less than full flight. You hit the gates at high speed, and popping up used quite a bit of that engery. Additionally, you'll stay up there until the majority of that energy is dissipated, at which point he canopy will nose over to regain speed and get back to full flight. Of course, you're not high enought to reach full flight before touch down.

So you're nose down, slow and approaching the ground. The first part of your flare will be used just to bring you back from behind the canopy to directly under, putting you in level flight. Now you are flying level even slower than you were diving. The remainder of your toggle stroke goes to actually flare the canopy, but due to your low, low airpseed, the flare is weak and ineffective. Then you pound in.

There's no way to avoid this if you pop up. Watch the landings on distance runs in a canopy comp, and you'll see that everyone piles in like a sack of potatoes tossed off the back of a truck.

A good headwind can go a long way in that situation. It provides the extra airpeed you need to get a good flare after a pop up. On windy days, I'll take the pop up on purpose, just because you can set it down soft afterwards.


morris

Oct 6, 2010, 6:52 AM
Post #24 of 32 (1775 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
everyone piles in like a sack of potatoes tossed off the back of a truck.
In case someone doesnt know, those landings are way softer than they might look like - if well executed.
But this was not what Ive been talking about, I had to bring it down BEFORE all the speed was gone...


raymod2  (D 25630)

Oct 6, 2010, 8:33 AM
Post #25 of 32 (1752 views)
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Re: [davelepka] High speed shutdown [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree with a lot of what you said, Dave. If you pop up during a swoop you should not go into a dive to return to the ground. You should provide a good amount of toggle input during that final descent so that it is done gradually with minimal vertical speed. You should also save some flare for just before touchdown.

During a canopy competition many pilots choose to land on their ass to add a few feet to their distance. It is quite possible to stand up your landing after a pop-up and I have done it myself many times, even in zero wind.


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