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Nats results

 

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loudtom  (D 23115)

Sep 13, 2010, 7:11 AM
Post #26 of 74 (1717 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan, all the Air Force cadets at Natty's are seniors.
These teams really put a lot of effort in this year. Looks like its paying off them them.


There was alot of discussion about what they were doing in Intermediate...Seniors explains it...send your a team to win a medal in the c leauge since it is their last year....bs
low jump numbers and way alot of tunnel time does not explain it...they shoulda gone in advanced...winning in a lesser leauge than you coulda been in is cheap...and I was in the Air Force so I can give em some props but not in this case...


(This post was edited by loudtom on Sep 13, 2010, 7:15 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 13, 2010, 7:37 AM
Post #27 of 74 (1701 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

this discussion happens every year, it's a tough one to pick at, and in the end, pretty pointless

congrats to all the teams that brought a great meet to Nats - I wish I could have been there


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Sep 13, 2010, 7:38 AM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Sep 13, 2010, 8:06 AM
Post #28 of 74 (1686 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Only the one criteria - no more then 50% of a team can have won Gold or higher

I don't think just generic medalists is a criteria also. but now I'm not sure.

For some reason something about not being able to have a medalist from a higher class on your team was sticking out in my mind. I thought that was something from years ago to avoid player/coach situations where they grabbed an ex open medalist and put them on an intermediate team but that might be wrong on my memory.

Interesting thoughts on the splitting Intermediate. I had a similar conversation with a Nationals judge earlier this year since there really is that gap every year but we talked about what is the real gain to split it? Will splitting it get more teams involved? Will it involve awarding more medals and if so will there be enough teams to justify the higher class? Where would the line be drawn between "Intermediate" and "Recreational"? Will you have teams sandbagging to get into the lower class if they are boarder line for the split to have a better medal shot?

Its an interesting conversation to have to see what the benefits are behind it if any in splitting Intermediate. Other interesting conversation is what criteria should there be to have teams step up to Advanced other then the Gold medal qualifier? If you have an average a certain % above the previous years Gold medal scores should you be forced higher prior to the meet was one thing we had talked a bit about.


jtval  (D 26340)

Sep 13, 2010, 8:25 AM
Post #29 of 74 (1675 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom,
As always, people "hate" on the team because they feel they get training handed to them. They got the same support as the previous years.

However, EVERY YEAR they compete in intermediate.
This is the first time The A.F. took first.

Knock off your jealousy. The kids worked their asses off.

I think this is the first time they ever took third,too.
Were you REALLY still complaining when the previous years didn't even place?

I doubt it.

Go spread your hate and discontent somewhere else.

CONGRATS TO THE TEAMS FOR THE EFFORTS.




With your logic, anyone who wins should have been in the higher group?
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 13, 2010, 9:14 AM
Post #30 of 74 (1653 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Were you REALLY still complaining when the previous years didn't even place?.

AF Kids took 2nd two years ago - we rode the plane with them and we traded 2nd and 3rd the entire time. GREAT kids and they did fantastic - it was a pleasure to ride with them (and the army kids too).


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Sep 13, 2010, 9:34 AM
Post #31 of 74 (1641 views)
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Re: [Wings-n-Things] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What are the differences between the Open, Advanced and Intermediate classes?

Intermediate class does not have blocks 3,5,10,12,16,17 which use slot switching or mirroring.

Advanced and Open jump the same draw. Think of advanced as teams that are really good, but choose not to make it their entire life, as a lot of open teams do.

In regards to who can do what class. Its a minimum of B license for intermediate and not sure if its C or D for advanced and open. Pretty sure that's correct.

Now in order to compete in intermediate/advanced no 2 team members (excluding camera flyers) can have previously taken 1st place in that class. Basically if your team wins they cannot compete in the same class, with the same lineup the next year.


pms07  (D 7571)

Sep 13, 2010, 9:50 AM
Post #32 of 74 (1637 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is the first time The A.F. took first...

Well, recently perhaps. Check nationals results from 1984 and 1987. ;-)


skreamer

Sep 13, 2010, 1:18 PM
Post #33 of 74 (1583 views)
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Quote:
Knowing the Airforce team has no more than 14 months experience and no more than 500 jumps a person is just amazing.


Fixed it for you Erc. Smile


BikerBabe  (D 18644)

Sep 13, 2010, 1:39 PM
Post #34 of 74 (1576 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tom,
As always, people "hate" on the team because they feel they get training handed to them. They got the same support as the previous years.

However, EVERY YEAR they compete in intermediate.
This is the first time The A.F. took first.

Knock off your jealousy. The kids worked their asses off.

I think this is the first time they ever took third,too.
Were you REALLY still complaining when the previous years didn't even place?

I doubt it.

Go spread your hate and discontent somewhere else.

CONGRATS TO THE TEAMS FOR THE EFFORTS.




With your logic, anyone who wins should have been in the higher group?
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.

this. Not to mention, when we're cadets on the team, we also have to spend MOST of our time at the airfield teaching and jumpmastering the basic jump course, which involves way more ground school than any AFF, leading to 5 SOLO jumps. The actual time left over for competiton or demo training is a small percentage of the actual air time the team members get.

People seem to think that Wings of Blue members are handed hours of tunnel and hundreds of 4-way training jumps, when in reality we worked our asses off training every other AFA cadet, ROTC cadet, general, etc who wanted to take AM 490 for their jump wings.

And I say "we" because once a PTWOB, always a PTWOB.

Andi
#096


loudtom  (D 23115)

Sep 14, 2010, 4:35 AM
Post #35 of 74 (1471 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not hating dude, is everyone who has an opinion hating for c's sake...
I am pointing out a competition problem that has evidently been talked bout before...
Your pc ass has got to stop hating those that have a diff aproach than you dude.
If they need to split the intermediate...read intermediate, not semi advanced...
If this team was intermediate...well
This should also apply to those teams with past champions on them wether it is 1, 2 or whatever.
Look up intermediate in the dictionary.
ok don't look it up it only confused me...
according to the def...it is middle of the road...
we should have a begginers class evidently...


(This post was edited by loudtom on Sep 14, 2010, 4:37 AM)


jtval  (D 26340)

Sep 14, 2010, 4:55 AM
Post #36 of 74 (1463 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am not hating dude, is everyone who has an opinion hating for c's sake...
I am pointing out a competition problem that has evidently been talked bout before...
Your pc ass has got to stop hating those that have a diff aproach than you dude.
If they need to split the intermediate...read intermediate, not semi advanced...
If this team was intermediate...well
This should also apply to those teams with past champions on them wether it is 1, 2 or whatever.
Look up intermediate in the dictionary.
ok don't look it up it only confused me...
according to the def...it is middle of the road...
we should have a begginers class evidently...

No, not the opinion that's hating.
But, pointing to a team that worked their asses off is.
These kids have been jumping together for a very short time.
But your insinuation is that that were ringers.
They are in fact just a group of kids who busted their asses to be the best in a certain category.

If the problem exists with the category, don't point to the teams, point to the rules.
It just seems to be another one of those remarks about the AF teams being spoiled. YOu said you were A.F. have you been part of the PTWOB team?

I have a feeling if you were you'd have a different perspective.
Only a small percentage of their time on the team has to do with practice. most of it is spent teaching.


Ron

Sep 14, 2010, 6:48 AM
Post #37 of 74 (1450 views)
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Re: [Wings-n-Things] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Open has 16 random formations and 22 blocks. 6 of those blocks create memory where two or more peoples job changes between the first page and the second page.

The dives are pulled so that each jump has 5-6 points. So for those 6 blocks, you might have to memorize 5-6 points one way and then the same 5-6 points in another slot.

Advanced is exactly the same. Just a class where the weekend warrior does not have to compete against Airspeed and the Knights.

Intermediate removes those 6 memory creating block moves. So they have the same 16 randoms, but only 16 blocks.

Intermediate jumps also only have 4-5 points.


Ron

Sep 14, 2010, 7:04 AM
Post #38 of 74 (1448 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
However, EVERY YEAR they compete in intermediate.
This is the first time The A.F. took first.

While true they have not won..... They have placed 2nd in 2008, 2007, 2006, and 2002.


Ron

Sep 14, 2010, 7:23 AM
Post #39 of 74 (1441 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't know the exact number that each class is separated but I think its purely jump numbers.

Negative.... there is no jump numbers mentioned. USPA comp manual 1-1.4.5.c :

Hold a currently valid USPA/FAI license for the
appropriate discipline and event as follows

c. Formation Skydiving
(1) Intermediate and
Advanced Classes B License
(2) Open Class C License
(3) 10- and 16-Way B License
e


So you have to have a MINIMUM license of a "B" for intermediate and advanced, and a MINIMUM license of a "C" for open. But there is nothing that prevents a "D" with 20k jumps from going intermediate.

The ONLY restriction is in 5-1.3.E:

No team in the Advanced or Intermediate 4-Way
Formation Skydiving classes may be composed of
more than one quarter of members who have won a
gold medal in that class at the five previous U.S.
National Skydiving Championships or won a medal
in a higher class at the five previous U.S. National
Skydiving Championships or in the same event at an
FAI First Category Event; the videographer shall not
be considered when applying this rule.


So one, but only one, member of a team can have a gold in that class, or a medal in a higher class for 5 years.

So you could take a member of Airspeed and 3 other guys that have never won a medal in a higher class and go compete in Int if you like.


bwilling  (C 13618)

Sep 14, 2010, 9:55 AM
Post #40 of 74 (1405 views)
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Quote:
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.

Their 15.3 average at collegiates wasn't an indication? Did they think they were going to get worse at nationals after more training? :-)

I'm not hating, the kids did a great job, scored the most points, and deserved to win. But to suggest they didn't know they were capable of a 15 point average and that a 13.1 last year won by a pretty large margin is wrong. They knew.


jtval  (D 26340)

Sep 14, 2010, 1:25 PM
Post #41 of 74 (1360 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.

Their 15.3 average at collegiates wasn't an indication? Did they think they were going to get worse at nationals after more training? :-)

I'm not hating, the kids did a great job, scored the most points, and deserved to win. But to suggest they didn't know they were capable of a 15 point average and that a 13.1 last year won by a pretty large margin is wrong. They knew.


Did you see VTSD last year?


lowhook  (D 18667)

Sep 14, 2010, 1:52 PM
Post #42 of 74 (1345 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom,

You said:

"we should have a begginers class evidently..."

Well there was one in 1998. They called it Recreation Class and the dive draw was limited to randoms. USPA being the brainiacs they are did not really create a new class as they then got rid of the advanced class and just called intermediate class advanced! So medals for advanced in 1998 would have an asterisk next to them if this were baseball.

When this happened competitors complained that beginners should not be at Nationals and Recreation Class went away... You can never make everyone happy.

Brian


bwilling  (C 13618)

Sep 14, 2010, 2:20 PM
Post #43 of 74 (1338 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.

Quote:
Did you see VTSD last year?

I saw VTSD's scores, and they were certainly 'baby killing' at collegiates. But they moved up and won advanced at nationals this year.

I'm not saying Impulse should have followed them to advanced, I'm saying they knew they had 15 average potential, and that it would most likely win intermediate going away based on previous years scores. That's all...

Your contention was that if they knew that, they would have definitely moved up, and I don't believe that's true... they did know that in advance, and rather than be a middle of the pack advanced team, they chose to obliterate the intermediate class. ;-)

Congratulations to both Air Force teams and Spaceland Mamba, they all worked very hard and certainly deserve the medals and recognition they earned. Way to go guys!


Ron

Sep 14, 2010, 2:54 PM
Post #44 of 74 (1327 views)
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Re: [bwilling] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I saw VTSD's scores, and they were certainly 'baby killing' at collegiates. But they moved up and won advanced at nationals this year.

Yes, but last year they won Int. in 2009. with a 13 something.


bwilling  (C 13618)

Sep 14, 2010, 3:30 PM
Post #45 of 74 (1318 views)
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Re: [Ron] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes, but last year they won Int. in 2009. with a 13 something.

Yep, and VTSD won the class rather handily with a 13 something average (I believe 2nd was a mid or low 11 average)...

A 15 point average would have won 12 of the last 13 years (a 15.3 won in 2000), and all of those 12 years by at least a full point margin.

Which was kind of my whole point to JT... how can a team with a demonstrated 15 point potential enter intermediate and not think they're going to slaughter everybody? ;-)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Sep 14, 2010, 4:57 PM
Post #46 of 74 (1298 views)
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Re: [bwilling] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how can a team with a demonstrated 15 point potential enter intermediate and not think they're going to slaughter everybody? ;-)

I'd hypothesize a team that trained really hard on only the Intermediate draw getting 11's and 12's and 13's (medal contention, but still competitive) - and then at the very end of the season really had a great learning ramp

but didn't have enough time to train the slot switchers in time for nationals

just one possibility,

but, hey, that's just me


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Sep 14, 2010, 4:58 PM)


loudtom  (D 23115)

Sep 14, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #47 of 74 (1296 views)
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Re: [bwilling] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

It's may be legal and they did do a great job. But how could you take pleasure in winning when you know that you are playing with a stacked deck? And don't anyone tell me that nationals is not for beginners. We took a kid with less than 150 jumps, and placed where we should have, dead last. How did we end up in the same catagory as the AF team? Does that make sense?
Hope they didn't take such great pleasure in kicking our ass.


jtval  (D 26340)

Sep 14, 2010, 6:44 PM
Post #48 of 74 (1270 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's may be legal and they did do a great job. But how could you take pleasure in winning when you know that you are playing with a stacked deck? And don't anyone tell me that nationals is not for beginners. We took a kid with less than 150 jumps, and placed where we should have, dead last. How did we end up in the same catagory as the AF team? Does that make sense?
Hope they didn't take such great pleasure in kicking our ass.

Come up with a better plan and send it to USPA. Maybe they'll support it.
I'm not going to participate in this any longer. Mainly, because I will be out of town until late october.


I saw you're interview on the nattys site. It was cool of you guys to do that but if you're upset at the wrong people for the wrong reason.


Btw- in many peoples eyes the A.F. cadets ARE beginners. they had only been a team for just over a year. And they had only been skydiving for just over 2. Most of their jumps were exited from 6,500ft agl. I'm not worried about changing your mind but what you think you know about the team is not what the reality of it is.


TriGirl  (B License)

Sep 14, 2010, 7:41 PM
Post #49 of 74 (1252 views)
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Re: [jtval] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
I understand that 1st place won by a large Gap but I can ASSURE you if that thought they would win by that margin they WOULD have gone up in category.

Their 15.3 average at collegiates wasn't an indication? Did they think they were going to get worse at nationals after more training? :-)

I'm not hating, the kids did a great job, scored the most points, and deserved to win. But to suggest they didn't know they were capable of a 15 point average and that a 13.1 last year won by a pretty large margin is wrong. They knew.


Did you see VTSD last year?

Yeah, and they moved up to Advanced this year (and won) as Carolina Turbo XP. Smoked the field. Again. Nice job!


Ron

Sep 14, 2010, 8:06 PM
Post #50 of 74 (1243 views)
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Re: [loudtom] Nats results [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's may be legal and they did do a great job. But how could you take pleasure in winning when you know that you are playing with a stacked deck?

Simple.... you earned it.

Back in 2002 a bunch of us threw together an Intermediate team for 8way. We were doing quite well for a throw together team and I felt kinda bad.... One the the Golden Knights Chris Talbert asked me what was up.... He asked me, "If you were here in open and I was kicking your ass... you think I would feel bad about it?"

The point being that:

1. The USPA rules allow the AF to be there.
2. The AF does not always win.
3. It *IS* a competition and the point is to win a competition.

Quote:
We took a kid with less than 150 jumps, and placed where we should have, dead last. How did we end up in the same catagory as the AF team?

You and they registered in that class. Good on you for trying to bring a guy up, but this is a competition.

Quote:
Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

Quote:
Hope they didn't take such great pleasure in kicking our ass.

While you have raised some of the same points I have raised in the past.... I hope they did enjoy the win.

You don't like the rules.... Petition the USPA to change them.


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