Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
electronic device for analyzing

 

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h83

Sep 12, 2010, 6:51 AM
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electronic device for analyzing Can't Post

Hi..

i have now around 200 swoops (270s)under my velo 96 and i am looking for an electronic device that helps me in getting infos about speed and so on... to help me to analyze my turns...

thanks for your help...


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Sep 12, 2010, 7:43 AM
Post #2 of 26 (2662 views)
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Might be able to do some stuff with a GPS and google maps.

That said, there's no substitute for good video.


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Sep 12, 2010, 7:43 AM)


RichLees

Sep 12, 2010, 9:46 AM
Post #3 of 26 (2638 views)
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I use an L&B Viso which gives a log of vertical speed and altitude every 0.25 second for one jump and a log of peak canopy speed on each jump. BUT I'm not sure how much confidence to place in it - I typically get 85mph at 220 feet on a 450 degree turn and 75 at 200 feet on 270 degree (WL approx 2.1, sea level DZ).
I wonder how the recorded speed compares with what my Speed Cypres thinks. Does anyone know?


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 12, 2010, 4:24 PM
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Try a GPS data logger + Google Earth. Search the wingsuit forums for some ideas. You may want to find a 2 or even 5 Hz logger - a 1 Hz logger (once every second) is plenty good for a wingsuit, but for high speed canopy piloting analysis it may be somewhat lacking.

However, i've used my iPhone 4 and Holux M-1000C (both refresh @ 1Hz) and both of them recorded the pattern and turns (270 and 450 degree rotations) quite well. Importing the .gpx files into Google Earth provides some interesting 3D images and data. See attached for some screenshots from Google Earth of a 450 degree turn as recorded by Holux GPS logger

You can also import the GPS data from the logger into the video of you swoop to see it "in real time". Follow this link to learn how: http://larve.free.fr/...rt/Site/gpx2srt.html


(This post was edited by frost on Sep 12, 2010, 4:35 PM)
Attachments: 450_holux.JPG (272 KB)
  450_holux_1.JPG (275 KB)


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 22, 2010, 6:50 PM
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Here is a video of that same jump with GPS data overlay. Data and video are a bit out of sync, but that could be fixed rather easily with enough patience. However, this is good enough to demonstrate a proof of concept. GPS altitude data is off by about 300 feet, i dont know why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB_p-MWNuGY


vidiot  (D 2431)

Sep 22, 2010, 11:41 PM
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Here is a chart created with Paralog showing altitude, horizontal, vertical and combined spped, heading and turnrate over time based on 5Hz data from a QStarz 1000eX - these days, you would probably want to use the FlySight.

Klaus


(This post was edited by vidiot on Sep 22, 2010, 11:48 PM)
Attachments: swoop.png (107 KB)


raymod2  (D 25630)

Sep 23, 2010, 8:22 AM
Post #7 of 26 (2316 views)
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Very cool. Now all you need is to generate this data in real time and use it in an HUD.


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 23, 2010, 9:12 AM
Post #8 of 26 (2310 views)
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AFAIK, there are several independent developers working on a unit like that. This is aimed primarily at wingsuit pilots, who can benefit from glide and speed figures in real time. For us (swoopers) it would only be good @ high altitudes, i personally dont want to have anything in front of my eye on actual HP landing. recording and viewing it later seems to be sufficient at this point.

Here are some pics and a video of the POC (proof of concept):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBaoWjdbHHQ
Attachments: ____.jpg (23.2 KB)
  ______.jpg (71.3 KB)
  SANY0369.JPG (74.5 KB)


Hellis

Sep 23, 2010, 9:36 AM
Post #9 of 26 (2305 views)
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Re: [frost] electronic device for analyzing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
GPS altitude data is off by about 300 feet, i dont know why.

Are you sure the data is off by 300 feet and not only the DZ that is 300 feet MSL?
The GPS only records MSL altitude.
What you could do is subtract 316 feet from all the altitudevalues and it will be "correct".
But at some point the GPS recorded 309 feet, thats odd


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 23, 2010, 9:54 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2296 views)
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Re: [Hellis] electronic device for analyzing [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent guess! :) just looked up on Google Earth and yes, the DZ is @ 326 ft elev.! 309 ft was recorded at ground level, so that should be correct, taking into account the +/- variations in GPS accuracy.


raymod2  (D 25630)

Sep 23, 2010, 10:34 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2287 views)
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This could be a useful tool for training purposes. Things like vertical speed, rollout height, gate speed, etc. could be compared on successive runs to determine what techniques produce the best results and where to focus your efforts at improvement. However, from your video it looks like the sample rate is around 1Hz which is probably a little too slow to provide meaningful data.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Sep 23, 2010, 10:47 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2283 views)
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Interesting this has come up. I've been considering writing a Droid application that tracks all these variables (horizontal, vertical, etc) and then displays them in a 'swoop friendly' format on google maps.


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
Post #13 of 26 (2282 views)
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1Hz gives you some idea and can be quite a useful tool but I would definitely like to see what a 5Hz logger could do for high speed canopy maneuvers.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Sep 23, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Do it! Just make sure to include the iphone4 user's as well and I'm positive you'll receive quite a bit of compliments as well as potential revenue Wink


raymod2  (D 25630)

Sep 23, 2010, 12:31 PM
Post #15 of 26 (2252 views)
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Re: [frost] electronic device for analyzing [In reply to] Can't Post

Here you go, Mike. It's a 10Hz GPS for $80. It looks like it just came out this year.

http://www.amazon.com/...285269956&sr=8-2


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 23, 2010, 12:56 PM
Post #16 of 26 (2245 views)
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That's just a receiver though, not a logger. Could be used with a jailbroken iPhone (or any other hand held device) and a good GPS app, i suppose... Makes the set up a little more complicated and potentially more expensive.

AFAIK, these inexpensive 1Hz loggers are capable of 5Hz sampling, but only as receivers. For some reason they don't record to internal memory @ 5Hz.


(This post was edited by frost on Sep 23, 2010, 1:02 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Sep 23, 2010, 1:40 PM
Post #17 of 26 (2231 views)
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In reply to:
AFAIK, there are several independent developers working on a unit like that. This is aimed primarily at wingsuit pilots, who can benefit from glide and speed figures in real time. For us (swoopers) it would only be good @ high altitudes, i personally dont want to have anything in front of my eye on actual HP landing.

Yes distractions while mid turn could be fatal...

However I have thought that the goggles being developed by recon instruments will revolutionise wingsuiting.

Website with more info


Having the information in view while performing the act will be of much more benifit than anylising afterwards.

Tweak your little finger etc. and see the results in view.

For wingsuiting more forward speed less verticle speed = good, knowing about it = even better!

These would definately help with swooping too, but I agree that during the actual approach they could be more of a distraction than anything but who knows what the future holds....


raymod2  (D 25630)

Sep 23, 2010, 2:02 PM
Post #18 of 26 (2226 views)
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From what I have read this one can log at 5Hz but it is $150:

http://www.amazon.com/...285275699&sr=8-1


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 23, 2010, 2:26 PM
Post #19 of 26 (2223 views)
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In reply to:
Interesting this has come up. I've been considering writing a Droid application that tracks all these variables (horizontal, vertical, etc) and then displays them in a 'swoop friendly' format on google maps.

That would be really appreciated and used.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Sep 23, 2010, 3:07 PM
Post #20 of 26 (2213 views)
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Now I just gotta find some time to put it all together!

Probably won't be anytime soon, but I'll tinker with it and see if the GPS readings are reliable enough to produce something worthwhile.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Sep 23, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2183 views)
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Frost: Check and see if you can effectively "zero" your GPS on the ground next time so that the correct altitude is the base line for that day. This is especially true if your GPS uses a barometric reading and the GPS derived elevation data.


I would not count on the Recon goggles. Several months back when we spoke to them they said they "hoped" to have a prototype by October this year. As of right now it is vapor wear unless they produce a working prototype in few weeks.


The 5Hz GPS receivers usually do not log more than 1Hz. The few that do provide data with lots of noise that ends up being thrown out or makes the track pretty much useless.


IAN: Take a look at how your phone derives it's GPS coordinates. If it is AGPS(assisted GPS) like the Iphone and some other phones, it requires that the phone communicate with the phone towers in order to provide coordinates, poor phone signal can equal poor to no GPS data. Sometimes these coordinates can be severely off even when you have a good phone signal. Altitude is also a factor as most phones cannot communicate with the towers above 10K feet give or take. For swooping done from hop and pop altitudes it might not be as big a deal. Generally speaking, phones are not the best device to use, especially when you can buy a dedicated GPS logger thats the size of a Neptune for around $100.

The best and most cost effective set up is a dedicated GPS logger like the Qstarz BT-201 and a copy of Paralog. It's easy to use and download the data and overlay it on Google earth imagery with a click of a button. I've been using this set up for several years now and Klaus (vidiot) is the guy that wrote Paralog so he is well aware of what swoopers are capable of doing and the data they want to see. Alot of it is similar to what wingsuiters want to know as well and we've been using Paralog for years.


vidiot  (D 2431)

Sep 24, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Re: [LouDiamond] electronic device for analyzing [In reply to] Can't Post

Have a look at this thread in the WS forum on the FlySight, a 5Hz GPS logger with real-time audio feedback for horizontal and vertical speed and glide ratio (configurable). And of course integrated with Paralog. ;-)

Experiments showed the audible feedback (like a vario in a sailplane) to be much more intuitive and unobstrusive than visual feedback while detailed analysis can be done later with a PC (or MAC or Linux Box).

Klaus


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Sep 24, 2010, 7:21 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2155 views)
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Klaus,I agree that looks promising and I look forward to seeing how it develops and performs and who knows, maybe the swoopers will be able to utilize it as well. For now though, we both know that the set up I described above is proven to work very well and it is significantly less money.


Hellis

Sep 24, 2010, 8:55 AM
Post #24 of 26 (2145 views)
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In reply to:
That's just a receiver though, not a logger. Could be used with a jailbroken iPhone (or any other hand held device) and a good GPS app, i suppose... Makes the set up a little more complicated and potentially more expensive.

AFAIK, these inexpensive 1Hz loggers are capable of 5Hz sampling, but only as receivers. For some reason they don't record to internal memory @ 5Hz.


Not very complicateda at all.
I have a similar set up right now. Bluetooth GPS, Cellphone and logging software.
Works ok. I think the reason it does not work good/perfekt is because the GPS is not good enough.

I just orderd the Flysight, so buying another GPS the same week is not really tempting.
But if anyone does i suggest you get the vlkGPS tool to log the data.
http://vlkgps.sourceforge.net/
Its Java, so it should work on all phones (except iPhone?).
It can save the data as gpx, kml or csv files


vidiot  (D 2431)

Sep 24, 2010, 10:16 AM
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Lou, trust me the FlySight works very well. Made 10 flights on it already. Some minor tweaks possible and in progress, but the audible feedback and especially the 5Hz logging and download to Paralog is flawless.


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