Aug 30, 2010, 4:22 PM
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Greetings World Team Members,
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28 August 2010
Greetings World Team Members,
It is with a very heavy hearts that we send this most recent update on the current World Team record project.
As you know, World Team has been aggressively seeking a venue for its next World Team record attempt. In January 2010, World Team began negotiations with the United Arab Emirates. In March, the UAE’s representative offered World Team five C-130s to build a 500-way. Unfortunately, today the UAE revoked this offer and instead offered the use of these aircraft to P3 – a group of five current or former World Team Leaders. Ouch!
In May, we learned that the UAE had started negotiating with P3 for a world record attempt. From the the start of their talks, P3 knew that UAE was also negotiating with World Team to use these same C-130s and that, if P3’s efforts were successful, World Team’s project would be derailed. A project that was 12 months in the making, included untold hours of work by WT Leaders, a rehearsal camp by the BASE Team, and countless monies invested by World Team HQ and skydivers. Regardless, each of these five P3 individuals made a personal choice to not inform World Team about their efforts. Double ouch!
In June, at the Kaleidoscope event in Russia, we discussed the UAE situation with two P3 members. In hopes of preventing a giant rift in the big-way community, we suggested that P3 withdraw its current efforts and encourage the UAE to support World Team’s on-going two-phase world record effort in the UAE. Following that effort, we offered to have World Team endorse P3 to build its own world record in the UAE or wherever. P3 rejected this suggestion.
When the UAE representative said that he would support whichever group had the greatest chance of success for completing a world record, we were thrilled and confident. Although P3 organizes big-way camps and events into the mid-100s, their largest completed formation is smaller than World Team’s smallest. World Team has organized 15 big-way events in foreign lands using military aircraft, but P3 has never done so. World Team provides the most participant benefits for the least cost, etc. etc. So why did UAE make the decision to go with P3? Good question. We have asked, but have not yet received a response.
Records are made to be broken, and World Team welcomes others seeking opportunities to set big-way world records. But it is most disappointing that a group of World Team Leaders would work behind our collective backs to impede a current World Team effort that they had publicly supported and in which they were supposedly serving in leadership roles. None of them had expressed dissatisfaction with their commitment to World Team, or signaled their pursuit of a different goal.
So now what? Many of you will be put in a position to make some decisions. We want to assure you that we will not try to influence, or be personally offended by, whatever choices you make. World Team continues to seek a host nation to support a world record and is pursuing some attractive leads. World Team, however, will never imply that it has a viable project in the works until it becomes a reality.
On an even brighter note… World Team recognizes that the big-way community is in serious need of high quality big-way camps and events that are affordable. Too many big-way enthusiasts and new skydivers entering the scene are discouraged by the upwardly spiraling costs of events. So, in addition to pursuing its world record efforts, World Team will be focusing its energy on raising the bar of big-way skills and methods around the globe. Stay tuned for more news on this front.
World Team wishes all of its members – past, present, and future – a great (rest of the) big-way season!
Aug 30, 2010, 8:08 PM
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Re: [fubar123] Greetings World Team Members,
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28 August 2010
Greetings World Team Members,
It is with a very heavy hearts that we send this most recent update on the current World Team record project.
As you know, World Team has been aggressively seeking a venue for its next World Team record attempt. In January 2010, World Team began negotiations with the United Arab Emirates. In March, the UAE’s representative offered World Team five C-130s to build a 500-way. Unfortunately, today the UAE revoked this offer and instead offered the use of these aircraft to P3 – a group of five current or former World Team Leaders. Ouch!
In May, we learned that the UAE had started negotiating with P3 for a world record attempt. From the the start of their talks, P3 knew that UAE was also negotiating with World Team to use these same C-130s and that, if P3’s efforts were successful, World Team’s project would be derailed. A project that was 12 months in the making, included untold hours of work by WT Leaders, a rehearsal camp by the BASE Team, and countless monies invested by World Team HQ and skydivers. Regardless, each of these five P3 individuals made a personal choice to not inform World Team about their efforts. Double ouch!
In June, at the Kaleidoscope event in Russia, we discussed the UAE situation with two P3 members. In hopes of preventing a giant rift in the big-way community, we suggested that P3 withdraw its current efforts and encourage the UAE to support World Team’s on-going two-phase world record effort in the UAE. Following that effort, we offered to have World Team endorse P3 to build its own world record in the UAE or wherever. P3 rejected this suggestion.
When the UAE representative said that he would support whichever group had the greatest chance of success for completing a world record, we were thrilled and confident. Although P3 organizes big-way camps and events into the mid-100s, their largest completed formation is smaller than World Team’s smallest. World Team has organized 15 big-way events in foreign lands using military aircraft, but P3 has never done so. World Team provides the most participant benefits for the least cost, etc. etc. So why did UAE make the decision to go with P3? Good question. We have asked, but have not yet received a response.
Records are made to be broken, and World Team welcomes others seeking opportunities to set big-way world records. But it is most disappointing that a group of World Team Leaders would work behind our collective backs to impede a current World Team effort that they had publicly supported and in which they were supposedly serving in leadership roles. None of them had expressed dissatisfaction with their commitment to World Team, or signaled their pursuit of a different goal.
So now what? Many of you will be put in a position to make some decisions. We want to assure you that we will not try to influence, or be personally offended by, whatever choices you make. World Team continues to seek a host nation to support a world record and is pursuing some attractive leads. World Team, however, will never imply that it has a viable project in the works until it becomes a reality.
On an even brighter note… World Team recognizes that the big-way community is in serious need of high quality big-way camps and events that are affordable. Too many big-way enthusiasts and new skydivers entering the scene are discouraged by the upwardly spiraling costs of events. So, in addition to pursuing its world record efforts, World Team will be focusing its energy on raising the bar of big-way skills and methods around the globe. Stay tuned for more news on this front.
World Team wishes all of its members – past, present, and future – a great (rest of the) big-way season!
Safe skies,
BJ and Bobbie
Even tho BJ & I do not see eye-to-eye on every issue, specifically the 10.6M dollars involved with the Skyride issue, I have to give credit to BJ, in that he has the ability to say 'Fuck you' in the most polite way possible. Not saying that is necessarily the best way to handle it, just saying he has that ability.
Aug 31, 2010, 9:15 AM
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Re: [fubar123] Greetings World Team Members,
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I have no idea what P3's agenda is here, but my take on this is, the World Team has their system working as smooth as can be and they have been very successful in the past. Why mess with a good thing?
The grass is not always greener on the other side as far as this issue is concerned.
Aug 31, 2010, 11:41 PM
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Re: [fubar123] Greetings World Team Members,
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On an even brighter note… World Team recognizes that the big-way community is in serious need of high quality big-way camps and events that are affordable. Too many big-way enthusiasts and new skydivers entering the scene are discouraged by the upwardly spiraling costs of events. So, in addition to pursuing its world record efforts, World Team will be focusing its energy on raising the bar of big-way skills and methods around the globe. Stay tuned for more news on this front.
I liked reading this part because recently I've become interested in learning more about big-way RW formations and participating in them. So far I've made about 7200 jumps, yet my largest RW formation: 24. Watching the World Team's videos over the years has been an inspiration, and I'm hoping that one day I can join in. Big-way training camps would be a great way for myself and my girlfriend to advance in this sport!
Sep 1, 2010, 9:56 AM
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Re: [parachutist] Greetings World Team Members,
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Big-way training camps would be a great way for myself and my girlfriend to advance in this sport!
P3 has been running Big Way Camps for the last... 7 years I think? Open registration, entirely transparent to get in. If you are interested, look for them on the Perris website.
Sep 1, 2010, 1:30 PM
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I have no idea what P3's agenda is here, but my take on this is, the World Team has their system working as smooth as can be and they have been very successful in the past. Why mess with a good thing?
Why have Perris Fury when Airspeed has been doing so well?
People think they can do better in some way, or just think they want to give it a try. Why not let them?
Sep 1, 2010, 4:24 PM
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Re: [Remster] Greetings World Team Members,
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P3 has been running Big Way Camps for the last... 7 years I think? Open registration, entirely transparent to get in. If you are interested, look for them on the Perris website.
Why have Perris Fury when Airspeed has been doing so well?
Quote:
I'd bet that there will now be an alternative to the Perris P3 camps on the east coast. I'd bet that camp will be substantially less expensive. (At least to start with)
It should end up being better for the big way world.
Sep 1, 2010, 6:44 PM
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Re: [Ron] Greetings World Team Members,
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I have no idea what P3's agenda is here, but my take on this is, the World Team has their system working as smooth as can be and they have been very successful in the past. Why mess with a good thing?
Why have Perris Fury when Airspeed has been doing so well?
Hello Ron,
I would like to politely ask you to check your facts before speaking. Perris Fury has nothing to do with P3, other than helping with events now and then. And, P3 is actually co-led by an ex-Airspeed member, Dan BC.
Thanks,
reply]
(This post was edited by cfarina on Sep 1, 2010, 6:45 PM)
Sep 2, 2010, 2:14 AM
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What about resolving this outside of Dropzone.com? You have a common goal, and I thought you were friends.
The P3 has done a lot to recruit new bigway formation skidivers: they let people like me be on their bigway camps, and thanks to them, I got a complete 100-way in my logbook before I had 500 jumps. And no, their events aren't prohibitively expensive, not to someone who is used to paying for her own jumps.
I think the P3s use of civilean aircraft and DZs makes more predictability, which is what normal skydivers with normal jobs need. We borrow the military C-130s, if they are needed elsewhere, we lose them. Most of us have to plan and take time off work to go skydiving, and then it would suck to suddenly stand there with no planes.
I'm not on the World Team, but I'm a dedicated bigway formation skydiver and would like to see a new world record.
I hope you are airworthy again, BJ, you weren't on some of my best 100-ways.
Sep 2, 2010, 6:29 AM
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I would like to politely ask you to check your facts before speaking.
Chris... My facts are good, I think you misunderstood my post.
He basically asked, 'why have P3 when the WT has been doing these events so well in the past'.
My answer was why would you have a team like Fury when Airspeed has been doing so well. The second paragraph, "People think they can do better in some way, or just think they want to give it a try. Why not let them?" Explains it completely.
Just like Fury thinks they can win and represent the US well... P3 thinks they can provide a bigway service. So both DO instead of just allowing the status quo to continue.
I can understand your confusion.... But the second paragraph should have made it clearer.
For the record:
1. I am a free market kinda guy... I SUPPORT competition since it brings prices down.
2. The additional frequency of camps and the splitting of the 'talent' will allow new people to get the skills needed.
Sep 2, 2010, 6:49 AM
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2. The additional frequency of camps and the splitting of the 'talent' will allow new people to get the skills needed.
And hence my post. Should BJ decide to support/start and alternative to P3 which has been, really the only game in town, more people will be exposed to trying big ways.
P3 has done a great job as far as I can tell, lot's of strong people run the events. But it is Perris based. For an East coast person unwilling to take a red eye It's a Wed to Mon event. By possibly having something on the east coast you can't help but make it easier for someone to attend a camp.
The real question will be does BJ have the desire to "keep going" he may not have the desire to rebuild the wheel.
Sep 2, 2010, 7:41 AM
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Re: [yjumpinoz] Greetings World Team Members,
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Can't help wondering who the "defectors" are...we all have are ideas.
I was in Kolomna this summer. My last day there was P3's first day there. I spoke to Kate Cooper and Larry Henderson. I sold one of the fans we used in the judges room during the Russian Nationals to Larry and his wife, Pam. Delivery was at 5 am the next morning. Larry was pretty coherent at 5am, but looked sleepy. (It took 5 hours to get to Moscow that morning.)
BJ and Bobbie were there too and I chatted with them too. I went over the menu with Bobbie to point out the good stuff. She noticed this grilled ham & cheese sandwich with fries I ordered. It's off the breakfast menu, but I told her Dimitry helped me get it ordered at dinner time earlier in the week.
There were several other English speaking jumpers that showed up that day too, but they are not listed on the P3 page. We talked more about their rustic accommodations.
Sep 2, 2010, 7:49 AM
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Re: [Ron] Greetings World Team Members,
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Hello Ron
Thanks for clarifying. It does appear that I misread your post. I just wanted to avoid Fury getting lumped into this argument/debate. It's not our battle and want to stay out of it. We do a good enough job of getting ourselves into trouble :-) Thanks again for clarifying and I wish everyone the best in their big-way endeveours.
Sep 3, 2010, 7:31 PM
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Re: [fubar123] Greetings World Team Members,
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Reading your post leaves me with several questions, one of which is... names...
Who exactly (names) is behind the "World Team" effort?
Who exactly (names) is behind the "P3" effort?
Also... "World Team recognizes that the big-way community is in serious need of high quality big-way camps and events that are affordable. Too many big-way enthusiasts and new skydivers entering the scene are discouraged by the upwardly spiraling costs of events. "
I think you might find there are many very qualified, current skydivers (competitors, instructors, former big way jumpers) that have walked away due to the self serving mentality and overall lack of integrity some big way organizers have brought to this skydiving discipline. Other reasons may be the lack of time and interest in feeding the big way machine. If you don't continously feed the machine ($), you will not get a slot, regardless of overall experience, currency or past big way success/records.
Bigway is fun, but it is the most overrated discipline in the sport of skydiving. It is typically a one point skydive people... The most important skill you need is tracking - and it is very important. My opinion, no one elses.
(This post was edited by PLF on Sep 3, 2010, 7:58 PM)
WT has mostly been records, plus some international boogies, plus the annual Kaleidoscope dives and other events. These are for people already having big way credentials.
P3 has big way camps for newbies, 100 way invitationals which have become more like camps (i.e., not as selective as in the past). These are good events to learn and practice bigway skills. They also do more exclusive events with intricate formations in the 40-way range, targeted at the open/advanced FS competitor type of jumpers.
billvon (D 16479)
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Sep 6, 2010, 7:19 AM
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>the World Team has their system working as smooth as can be and they >have been very successful in the past. Why mess with a good thing?
Well, the 300-way was Airspeed/GoFast, not World Team. Prior to that Roger Nelson did the 200-way and took a crack at a 300-way as I recall. Which is great; the more organizations trying this the better.
Sep 6, 2010, 4:49 PM
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Be interesting to see where some of the former team Capt fall. Certainly there are west coast capt that will stay mainly on the west coast. But if there really is a east big way camp system there will have to develope a "group" like the west.
I wish more of the "old time" big way jumpers would speak up. I have heard the comment that even if a east big way starts in time it will be expensive like the west and the "climb the wall" to get your slot in records will be the same....it probably has to be that way.
To bad they lock the other thread, it seem to be more active than this one...........
I don't know that I would be called "an old-time bigway jumper". All of my 100 ways were in the late 90's with Sandy Wambach and Joe Trinko. However, I agree that the east coast needs a series of big way camps. Roger Ponce is an east coast jumper so I could conceivably see him leading one.
However you look at it, P3 is providing a good service. It's just overpriced. If you don't like it, start your own, is all I can say.
Sep 7, 2010, 12:39 PM
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28 August 2010
Greetings World Team Members,
It is with a very heavy hearts that we send this most recent update on the current World Team record project.
As you know, World Team has been aggressively seeking a venue for its next World Team record attempt. In January 2010, World Team began negotiations with the United Arab Emirates. In March, the UAE’s representative offered World Team five C-130s to build a 500-way. Unfortunately, today the UAE revoked this offer and instead offered the use of these aircraft to P3 – a group of five current or former World Team Leaders. Ouch!
In May, we learned that the UAE had started negotiating with P3 for a world record attempt. From the the start of their talks, P3 knew that UAE was also negotiating with World Team to use these same C-130s and that, if P3’s efforts were successful, World Team’s project would be derailed. A project that was 12 months in the making, included untold hours of work by WT Leaders, a rehearsal camp by the BASE Team, and countless monies invested by World Team HQ and skydivers. Regardless, each of these five P3 individuals made a personal choice to not inform World Team about their efforts. Double ouch!
In June, at the Kaleidoscope event in Russia, we discussed the UAE situation with two P3 members. In hopes of preventing a giant rift in the big-way community, we suggested that P3 withdraw its current efforts and encourage the UAE to support World Team’s on-going two-phase world record effort in the UAE. Following that effort, we offered to have World Team endorse P3 to build its own world record in the UAE or wherever. P3 rejected this suggestion.
When the UAE representative said that he would support whichever group had the greatest chance of success for completing a world record, we were thrilled and confident. Although P3 organizes big-way camps and events into the mid-100s, their largest completed formation is smaller than World Team’s smallest. World Team has organized 15 big-way events in foreign lands using military aircraft, but P3 has never done so. World Team provides the most participant benefits for the least cost, etc. etc. So why did UAE make the decision to go with P3? Good question. We have asked, but have not yet received a response.
Records are made to be broken, and World Team welcomes others seeking opportunities to set big-way world records. But it is most disappointing that a group of World Team Leaders would work behind our collective backs to impede a current World Team effort that they had publicly supported and in which they were supposedly serving in leadership roles. None of them had expressed dissatisfaction with their commitment to World Team, or signaled their pursuit of a different goal.
So now what? Many of you will be put in a position to make some decisions. We want to assure you that we will not try to influence, or be personally offended by, whatever choices you make. World Team continues to seek a host nation to support a world record and is pursuing some attractive leads. World Team, however, will never imply that it has a viable project in the works until it becomes a reality.
On an even brighter note… World Team recognizes that the big-way community is in serious need of high quality big-way camps and events that are affordable. Too many big-way enthusiasts and new skydivers entering the scene are discouraged by the upwardly spiraling costs of events. So, in addition to pursuing its world record efforts, World Team will be focusing its energy on raising the bar of big-way skills and methods around the globe. Stay tuned for more news on this front.
World Team wishes all of its members – past, present, and future – a great (rest of the) big-way season!
Safe skies,
BJ and Bobbie
BJ has definitely done a lot of work in progressing Big Ways, for a long time. No one can deny that.
I have also seen that the P3 camps and the Kate and Tony camps before that, have done a lot of work with the big way jumpers over the years. They have built a stable of very good big way jumpers that are loyal to them. I personally watched them work for months on end to get people ready for the World Team events. A lot of HARD work.
They have trained and groomed jumpers a large percentage of the jumpers on the World Team events. Of course other organizers from all over the Us and the World have helped get people ready for the World Team events. There is no denying that.
But name me one other camp that has put out more quality jumpers then P3 or the Kate and Tony Bigway Camps before that.
I am not knocking BJ. He has a world of experience and obviously the no how to get these records done. But I never saw BJ actually training anyone. I never saw him hold a big way camp for younger jumpers. P3 and Kate and Tony have spent a lot of time and effort into these camps. Most other bigway organizers just invite people to an event based on what they have seen them do in OTHER events.
If BJ is upset that people have finally seen that they are actually doing most of the work (training and evaluating jumpers) and recruiting them for their own record attempt. Maybe he should put in the time and effort to run bigway camps and build a following of jumpers that are loyal to him.
I am glad that P3 has decided to take the ball and run with it. In my eyes it has been their ball for awhile.Well maybe not their ball, but definitely the majority of the players are theirs.
BJ, go get back in touch with jumpers. Jump with people, run some camps. Build a following. To most jumpers you are a name and the guy that makes fun of DZ.com at board meetings. Ask a newer bigway jumper if they know BJ Worth. They will say...who? Isnt he a USPA BOD member? Bet most of them don't know you even jump anymore. Ask those same jumpers if they know who Kate and Tony and Dan BC are. They will probably say....aren't they the bigway organizers that run all those camps you have to attend to get on World Team? You have done a lot for this sport BJ, but you seem out of touch with jumpers today.
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