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Let's talk about 'no pulls'

 

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airdvr  (D 10977)

Aug 29, 2010, 1:27 PM
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Let's talk about 'no pulls' Can't Post

Big difference between a low pull and a no pull yet they get lumped into the same category. I'm talking about no AAD and no activation of either main or reserve, and no obvious signs that activation was attempted.

Having a difficult time understanding a true no pull fatality with todays equipment.


danornan  (D 11308)

Aug 29, 2010, 1:44 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

One simple explanation is suicide. It has happened. One in particular I'm familiar with at Z-Hills a few years ago. Guy get's his reserve repacked, tips the packer excessively and becomes a lawn dart after a 10-way.


oskar5  (Student)

Aug 29, 2010, 2:00 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

Just look at the Mountain Gravity Boogie in Switzerland. We nearly had 2 no pulls there because people were dropped over the mountain instead of valley and didnt recognized that the top of the mountain is +1700m above the bottom of the valley.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Aug 29, 2010, 4:35 PM
Post #4 of 70 (3714 views)
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Re: [danornan] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One simple explanation is suicide. It has happened. One in particular I'm familiar with at Z-Hills a few years ago. Guy get's his reserve repacked, tips the packer excessively and becomes a lawn dart after a 10-way.

It almost has to be. Think about the timeline. I don't jump with an AAD or an RSL. But you can be damned sure that in the 15 seconds between 3 grand and impact you'd at least be able to tell that I was trying to get something out...unless I wasn't.Unsure


Amazon  (D License)

Aug 29, 2010, 4:47 PM
Post #5 of 70 (3701 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Big difference between a low pull and a no pull yet they get lumped into the same category. I'm talking about no AAD and no activation of either main or reserve, and no obvious signs that activation was attempted.

Having a difficult time understanding a true no pull fatality with todays equipment.

I hate to bring up the AAD thing.. but when I started jumping No Pulls were very very common.

Shit happens ... during exits.. collisions.... I can think of toher reasons due to health issues.

Today we have several kinds of AAD's. In some places they are mandatory or you do not jump there.

Even as expensive as a new AAD can be,I have one in each of the rigs I have bought and jumped in the modern era. I consider an AAD cheap insurance against SHIT HAPPENS.UnsureUnsure

People, what value do you put on your lives.


cbrown1311  (A 59401)

Aug 29, 2010, 6:30 PM
Post #6 of 70 (3659 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem I'm having is understanding how many entries in the incident forum say "AAD fired but too late for reserve to fully inflate." It seems like in the last 3 years theres at least been a handful of those. I just can't understand how that could happen.


pompita  (A 62097)

Aug 29, 2010, 6:40 PM
Post #7 of 70 (3650 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a good point. I'm a rookie to the sport but I've read through quite a few prior fatality reports. On many occasions I have read about AADs firing but reserves not fully inflating.

If anyone with more experience has some insight as to why this is, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


millertime24  (C 38793)

Aug 29, 2010, 6:47 PM
Post #8 of 70 (3642 views)
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Re: [Amazon] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
People, what value do you put on your lives.

A bit more than $1300 (actually $450,000 according to the USAFWink). Although, since Ive started jumping Ive made about 300 jumps without one so my biggest problem these days is remembering to turn the damn thing on. Since it never used to be part of my gear check sometimes it slips the mind when Im in a hurry to make that first load. I still do a proper gear check though.


millertime24  (C 38793)

Aug 29, 2010, 6:51 PM
Post #9 of 70 (3633 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just can't understand how that could happen.

It's simple. It is an electronic device. It CAN fail. An example would be my Neptune II shutting off in freefall (which is becoming a pretty frequent occurance these days).


wildcard451  (D License)

Aug 29, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #10 of 70 (3626 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem I'm having is understanding how many entries in the incident forum say "AAD fired but too late for reserve to fully inflate." It seems like in the last 3 years theres at least been a handful of those. I just can't understand how that could happen.

It's a last ditch last second thing designed to be just high enough to save your life but low enough not to screw with any routine skydiving operations. Getting into that realm, you're three seconds from impact. Not a lot of room to screw around with. Also, any hesitation on the reserve extraction can mean your bad day just became your last day.

However, I still subscribe that there are only two valid reasons for me to ever have an AAD fire : Unconscious or dead. Everything else, well, it's my fault that I have no handled the situation before then.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2010, 7:57 PM
Post #11 of 70 (3576 views)
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Re: [pompita] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

Somewhere on these forums is the notice USPA sent out telling people to check how their reserve comes out of their rigs. Some reserves may come out slower than others (A search should find you the letter they sent out to everyone.) Also if you've cutaway, it may take you a while to get back up to fast enough airspeeds for the AAD to fire..

I know of one AAD fire that was due to panicking after a cutaway.
There have been numerous people who forgot the "Two Tries 2 seconds rule" on a total mal.. They spend the rest of their life trying to get their main out forgetting about their reserve.

Others have gone in trying to get stable after a cutaway (one reason why RSL's are a good thing.)

Generally if its not suicide it is loss of altitude awareness...


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Aug 29, 2010, 8:30 PM
Post #12 of 70 (3554 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem I'm having is understanding how many entries in the incident forum say "AAD fired but too late for reserve to fully inflate." It seems like in the last 3 years theres at least been a handful of those. I just can't understand how that could happen.

interesting reading on this issue:

http://www.pia.com/...dvisory3-31-2010.pdf


absane  (A 58418)

Aug 29, 2010, 9:14 PM
Post #13 of 70 (3530 views)
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Re: [millertime24] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An example would be my Neptune II shutting off in freefall (which is becoming a pretty frequent occurance these days).

While I haven't had that happen yet, I started having doubts about my N2 giving me a proper readout on my last jump. Fell through a cloud (opps) and it went poo-poo.

I don't trust my altimeter and I don't put my faith in an AAD.


brettski74  (C 3197)

Aug 29, 2010, 9:33 PM
Post #14 of 70 (3518 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just can't understand how that could happen.

Without looking at the particular incidents you're referring to, there are several reasons why this could happen.

  • Parachute equipment can malfunction. eg. reserve snivel, streamer, etc.

  • Electronic malfunction. eg. incorrect barometric sensor data, incorrect zeroing of device

  • Incorrect device configuration. eg. incorrect offset, inadvertent offset/zeroing due to travel while device is on

  • Firing parameters were not met until at a lower altitude. eg. low cutaway, low aircraft exit.


  • An AAD is a backup device. Like any device, it can fail or be misused as can the reserve canopy it deploys. Read the manual. Know how it works. Be aware of its limitations. Never rely on it to save your life. It may just do that in an emergency, but if it does, you were lucky. Saving your life was your job.


    airdvr  (D 10977)

    Aug 29, 2010, 11:56 PM
    Post #15 of 70 (3471 views)
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    Re: [Amazon] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    Big difference between a low pull and a no pull yet they get lumped into the same category. I'm talking about no AAD and no activation of either main or reserve, and no obvious signs that activation was attempted.

    Having a difficult time understanding a true no pull fatality with todays equipment.

    I hate to bring up the AAD thing.. but when I started jumping No Pulls were very very common.

    Shit happens ... during exits.. collisions.... I can think of toher reasons due to health issues.

    Today we have several kinds of AAD's. In some places they are mandatory or you do not jump there.

    Even as expensive as a new AAD can be,I have one in each of the rigs I have bought and jumped in the modern era. I consider an AAD cheap insurance against SHIT HAPPENS.UnsureUnsure

    People, what value do you put on your lives.

    I hear what you're saying. But back then we didn't even begin deploying until 2 grand. Now it's 3 grand or better.

    Jeanne...with your current rig minus an AAD what are the chances that you would go in and there would be no way to tell why you didn't deploy? No PC half out, no reserve ripcord snagged on something or jammed somewhere. I'm not talking after a cutaway. We all know how that happens.


    piisfish

    Aug 29, 2010, 11:56 PM
    Post #16 of 70 (3470 views)
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    Re: [oskar5] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    Just look at the Mountain Gravity Boogie in Switzerland. We nearly had 2 no pulls there because people were dropped over the mountain instead of valley and didnt recognized that the top of the mountain is +1700m above the bottom of the valley.
    do you mean low pulls ?


    jurgencamps  (D License)

    Aug 30, 2010, 1:21 AM
    Post #17 of 70 (3449 views)
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    Re: [millertime24] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    Quote:
    I just can't understand how that could happen.

    It's simple. It is an electronic device. It CAN fail. An example would be my Neptune II shutting off in freefall (which is becoming a pretty frequent occurance these days).

    That is very true, but there are more factors than only the AAD that makes that the reserve opens to late.
    For example a big reserve in a tight container, reserve loop to long, incorrect installation ...

    The AAD is only a part of a complete system and the whole system has to function correctly.


    wmw999  (D 6296)

    Aug 30, 2010, 5:44 AM
    Post #18 of 70 (3400 views)
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    Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    They were hard to understand before the Cypres, too. Sometimes you could find a reason -- a hard pull that someone kept working on, or something like that.

    Some of the hints might be in the stories of people who have AAD fires. And remember that by the time the AAD's firing, you've only got about 5 seconds before you hit the ground. It doesnt' take a very long "oh shit I fucked up" to take up all that time if you don't have an AAD.

    As far as why AADs "fail?" If they initiate pack opening within their boundaries (i.e. air pressure & changes says they're at between 750-1250 feet & going fast) they haven't failed. But if the person's body position is such that the air pressure isn't perfectly accurate, there ya go. If the reserve has a slight delay in opening, there ya go. It doesn't take much when your working time is 2-3 seconds.

    Wendy P.


    cbrown1311  (A 59401)

    Aug 30, 2010, 7:02 AM
    Post #19 of 70 (3370 views)
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    Re: [wmw999] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    It just seems to me like there are many fewer saves from AAD's and many more malfunctions then you would expect from any other piece of electronic equipment. Also, you guys talk about the things that may effect them, such as body position and imperfect air pressure readings, but I ask why have those things not been accounted for such that the device fires at an altitude that, even with those errors, still fires high enough for a reserve deployment? I don't know about you guys but I would rather have an AAD fire 500 feet higher if it means that it will correctly deploy a reserve 90 percent of the time than 500 feet lower and deploy 50 percent of the time


    Hvance

    Aug 30, 2010, 7:13 AM
    Post #20 of 70 (3354 views)
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    Re: [wmw999] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    It doesn't take much when your working time is 2-3 seconds.
    Very true. Unsure


    Premier skybytch  (D License)

    Aug 30, 2010, 7:17 AM
    Post #21 of 70 (3347 views)
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    Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    I don't know about you guys but I would rather have an AAD fire 500 feet higher if it means that it will correctly deploy a reserve 90 percent of the time than 500 feet lower and deploy 50 percent of the time

    There is no guarantee that a reserve deployed by you pulling a ripcord is going to deploy correctly. How can it be guaranteed that a reserve not deployed by you, with you probably in a less than ideal body position, will deploy correctly?


    absane  (A 58418)

    Aug 30, 2010, 7:30 AM
    Post #22 of 70 (3332 views)
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    Re: [brettski74] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    Saving your life was your job.

    I committed this motto to my brain when I first started out: when in doubt, whip it out (the reserve! Tongue). If I am at my pulling altitude, attempted to pull, and something doesn't feel right after 5 seconds, I'm not fighting anything. Save the AAD for a time when you're knocked unconscious. I guess that maybe if your AAD does fail at that time, you won't feel the splat.


    Ion01  (B License)

    Aug 30, 2010, 9:21 AM
    Post #23 of 70 (3249 views)
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    Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    I agree! The real point is that a higher activation will result in a high success rate.


    Amazon  (D License)

    Aug 30, 2010, 9:43 AM
    Post #24 of 70 (3230 views)
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    Re: [airdvr] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    Big difference between a low pull and a no pull yet they get lumped into the same category. I'm talking about no AAD and no activation of either main or reserve, and no obvious signs that activation was attempted.

    Having a difficult time understanding a true no pull fatality with todays equipment.

    I hate to bring up the AAD thing.. but when I started jumping No Pulls were very very common.

    Shit happens ... during exits.. collisions.... I can think of toher reasons due to health issues.

    Today we have several kinds of AAD's. In some places they are mandatory or you do not jump there.

    Even as expensive as a new AAD can be,I have one in each of the rigs I have bought and jumped in the modern era. I consider an AAD cheap insurance against SHIT HAPPENS.UnsureUnsure

    People, what value do you put on your lives.

    I hear what you're saying. But back then we didn't even begin deploying until 2 grand. Now it's 3 grand or better.

    Jeanne...with your current rig minus an AAD what are the chances that you would go in and there would be no way to tell why you didn't deploy? No PC half out, no reserve ripcord snagged on something or jammed somewhere. I'm not talking after a cutaway. We all know how that happens.

    Pretty easy to go in without one actually. You an I know it used to happen all the time.

    I have done more than my share of combat RW. I have been kicked in the face, slammed into the rear of the door on exit, and I have had people slam into me in freefall on NUMEROUS occasions.

    I am not currently jumping because my right shoulder was destroyed by some stellar flying and "hard dock" as it was described by the person who did it, that has left my right arm capable of coming out of its shoulder socket when just picking up a heavy laptop bagUnsureUnsure

    If anyone of those situations had incapacitated me where I ended up groggy or unconscience, I would have bounced just like the not so good old days.

    I look at the AAD as rather cheap insurance. Do you think I am actually going to let it pull for me if I have the slightest clue of whats going on???

    No.

    I have excellent altitude awareness, I jump with a Protrack and a Dytter and my Alti Galaxy for reminders as well. I do not do stupid shit that would even come close to scaring my Cypres 2 into firing.

    BUT, If I am out of it for whatever reason in freefall, I want that one last chance to continue to be here to annoy you guysTongue


    Amazon  (D License)

    Aug 30, 2010, 9:52 AM
    Post #25 of 70 (3220 views)
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    Re: [cbrown1311] Let's talk about 'no pulls' [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    It just seems to me like there are many fewer saves from AAD's and many more malfunctions then you would expect from any other piece of electronic equipment. Also, you guys talk about the things that may effect them, such as body position and imperfect air pressure readings, but I ask why have those things not been accounted for such that the device fires at an altitude that, even with those errors, still fires high enough for a reserve deployment? I don't know about you guys but I would rather have an AAD fire 500 feet higher if it means that it will correctly deploy a reserve 90 percent of the time than 500 feet lower and deploy 50 percent of the time

    Your perception is wrong then. There are literally hundreds of people who are alive because of a cypres fire after they lost altitude awareness.

    At some boogies there are load organizers like Mad John who will organize FULL RW loads of people who have had them


    The very few incidents where it did not fire in a timely manner is not the fault of the device in MOST of those situations.

    If you feel the need to have one go off higher, you can get the STUDENT MODEL instead of the EXPERT MODEL. Please talk with your instructors and S & TA about this.

    Remember, that device could make all the difference in the world, since it COULD be the last chance you are ever given in your life. That said...NEVER EVER rely on ANY device, use the built in computing power between your ears. Get to know what the ground looks like at any given altitude.


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