Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ?

 


callahan  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 12:38 AM
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180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? Can't Post

I went to the uspa site and they said that the new info on it would be in marchs parachutist . Did anyone out there attend the conference ?


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 21, 2003, 12:46 AM
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Re: [callahan] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I went to the uspa site and they said that the new info on it would be in marchs parachutist . Did anyone out there attend the conference ?

ya, they were talking about it in the riggers forum at PIA. they said they were working on it, but they had to get some drop tests done with rigs that had been backed for 180 days, and compare them to test with rigs that had been packed for 120 days. They also have to show that it will still be safe, for the inspection. they aren't sure how good of an idea it is for the inspection, because more stuff can happen in that time period, such as more time for a pop to get spilled on the rig, with out you knowing it, and it sitting longer. and there are more, but it's 3:30 in the morning here, and i'm kinda out of it.

another aspect they are looking at would be the prices or a repack would go up, and there not too sure how much yet. i mean, there would be more involved, you already have to do a close inspection, but with it being 180 days, it would have to be even a closer inspection.

i wouldn't count on it happening too soon. maybe in the next year or year and a half at best.

but this is just my opinion on when it will happen, if it does, they tried this a while back, and the FAA said no.

later


Gravitymaster  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 6:20 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
another aspect they are looking at would be the prices or a repack would go up, and there not too sure how much yet. i mean, there would be more involved, you already have to do a close inspection, but with it being 180 days, it would have to be even a closer inspection.

In what way would the inspections be closer than they are now?


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Feb 21, 2003, 6:26 AM
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Re: [Gravitymaster] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

"In what way would the inspections be closer than they are now?"

Yes, this aroused my curiosity too, I'm used to a 180 day cycle (UK), but the last couple were done in the US, so would be interested to hear what they 'haven't been looking at' for the 120 day cycle.

Any riggers care to enlighten us?


NightJumper  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 6:30 AM
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In what way would the inspections be closer than they are now

The fact that the question is asked scares me.Crazy

I know I would not change the way that I inspect and repack.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 21, 2003, 6:34 AM
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Re: [Gravitymaster] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In what way would the inspections be closer than they are now?

ah f#*$. like i said, i was out of it last night. they brought something like this up, and it came to it really wouldn't be a whole lot closer inspection, but it would be more maintenance (not sure how) or something. i kinda disagree, (i forgot to put that in last night) it really wouldn't be a big difference at all. you should already be going over the whole canopy, risers, rig, everying very closely anyway, so it really wouldn't be any different.



later


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 21, 2003, 7:27 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I sat in on that discussion during the PIA SYmposium.
The conclusion was that the FAA does not want to be bothered with changing the repack cycle.

The USNavy proved decades ago that changes in repack cycles make insignificant changes in opening time. The only change is in the amount of wear and tear between inspections.
It is only going to make a difference for people who make hundreds of jumps per year. These people are going to find that the loose grommet that their rigger used to whack with a hammer for free, now requires a sewn patch or even replacing the entire flap.


ERICCONNELLY  (C 32263)

Feb 21, 2003, 7:34 AM
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Re: [skygod7777] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
would be the prices or a repack would go up

It's really not a matter of inspection quality, it's a rigger's quality of life issue.

Fewer repacks=less $$ at the same price.
Raise the price and they can still afford to eat. (barely)

I would be willing to pay more just for the reduction in hassle.

E


SPY  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 9:51 AM
Post #9 of 22 (1157 views)
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Re: [ERICCONNELLY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
would be the prices or a repack would go up

It's really not a matter of inspection quality, it's a rigger's quality of life issue.

Fewer repacks=less $$ at the same price.
Raise the price and they can still afford to eat. (barely)

I would be willing to pay more just for the reduction in hassle.
E

Yep!

We had this issue of repack job prices going up when cycle went form 120 to 180 days 2 years ago and that revealed to be true.

What bothered people (at least me...) is not the price increase (3 X 40$ = 2 X 60$) but the lack of transparency of riggers trying to make people believe that a 180 days repack is more work than the 120's.

Come on riggers! Don't lie. Stand up and explain real motives of the price increase and the real consequences and skydivers will do the math and accept it. At the end of the year there won't be more expense and riggers won't have a decrease of incomes (remenber: 3 X 40$ is even with 2 X 60$) so no one lose and nobody will win over others.

In the event of someone having to actually use it's reserve, why not charging the "before 180 days cycle" price (Ask CRW riggers what they charge for a fellow who use it's reserve after a wrap: nothing)?

Just my opinion Wink


Gravitymaster  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 10:04 AM
Post #10 of 22 (1148 views)
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Re: [ERICCONNELLY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
would be the prices or a repack would go up

It's really not a matter of inspection quality, it's a rigger's quality of life issue.

Fewer repacks=less $$ at the same price.
Raise the price and they can still afford to eat. (barely)

I would be willing to pay more just for the reduction in hassle.

E


Agreed. Repack prices have stayed fairly stable for the past few years while incomes in most other professions and expenses have gone up. Look at how much canopy prices have increased just in the past 3-4 years.

Longer repack cycles benefit the rigger and the jumper as long as it can be shown there is no increased risks involved in extending the cycle. I think the jury is still out on that aspect though.


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 10:48 AM
Post #11 of 22 (1129 views)
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Re: [SPY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

180 or 120 days is fine with me. I like the 180 day personally. As far as pricing, It's about 50 bucks around here and well worth it. A top notch inspection and repack takes a certain amount of time.

Spy...What do you do for a living? How much time does it take you to perform your job? Do I really need to go on with that debate? Feel free to PM me with your concerns about the riggers who lie.

You are not the only skeptic about what riggers charge and do. I'm not singling you out that's not uncommon. First of all get that out of your head. The amount of repacks is not going to change that much.

I worked full time as a rigger for a long time, I was very busy performing repairs, building or modifying components. The amount of repacks would vary.

Some customers would complain about pricing no matter what you did. It was suggested that I itemized every task performed. Sure enough, Handing out an itemized bill eliminated 99% of all complaints (which were already very few and far between) Satisfaction of the work performed has always been very high

180 days is reasonable. Not all jumpers have good conditions to jump in. Some rigs need more maintainance than others. Some could go years with out ever seeing a rigger and be fine. The Rule needs to be placed in there some where. 6 months would be a good compromise.

That's enough for now.

Cheers.
-


(This post was edited by hookitt on Feb 21, 2003, 10:50 AM)


rigging65  (D 21921)

Feb 21, 2003, 11:09 AM
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Re: [hookitt] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with some of what's said here and disagree with other things.

First off, the statement that the FAA doesn't want to be bothered with the change is only partially true. The discussions that I sat through at PIA stated that the FAA has deferred to PIA to make a decision and put that information forth. After this is done, they'll look at (and most likely approve) what PIA presents. To me, this says that the FAA understands that they don't know what the hell they're looking at, so they're going to defer to the group that has expertise in the field and to whom the rules will be applied.

From there, what I got from some of the folks sitting on the Rigging Board, was that they had personal issues with moving the cycle to 180 days. They have basically himmed and hawwed over it, drug their feet and done little to move it forward.

Why? You've got me, but it certainly isn't based on any information they've collected. After clearly stating that they would need to do some testing because there was little or no real information available for sport rig pack tests, John LeBlanc of PD raised his hand and offered to share PD's considerable data about the subject with the board.

To be honest, the board seemed stunned. Now, why hadn't they approached canopy Mfgs. about this sooner? Who knows. I mean, it's not like canopy Mfgs. might know something or have done some tests on this or anything. Crazy

By the way, for any of you out there who are still under the impression that 180 days is too long to keep your reserve confined and still have it open properly, ask PD why their reserves are factory certified to be packed for up to one year between inspections, or whatever time frame a legal body sets forth less than that.

There have been studies, there have been tests...but some one (or ones) on the board simply don't want to see it go through.

If you really think it's going to change the money that riggers make per year, I think you're mistaken. Some folks will change their rates to keep the amount they make from any given jumper per year the same, some won't. At the end of the day, business is business and it will continue to be that way. My much bigger concern and worry is why is the group that represent Manufacturers dragging their feet and not showing reasons for the lack of movement on this issue?


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 11:20 AM
Post #13 of 22 (1109 views)
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Re: [rigging65] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you


SPY  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 12:36 PM
Post #14 of 22 (1086 views)
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Re: [hookitt] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Feel free to PM me with your concerns about the riggers who lie.

You are not the only skeptic about what riggers charge and do. I'm not singling you out that's not uncommon. First of all get that out of your head. The amount of repacks is not going to change that much.

I worked full time as a rigger for a long time, I was very busy performing repairs, building or modifying components. The amount of repacks would vary.

-
Hi Hookitt!
Let me clarify my thinking.
Skygod777 wrote:"another aspect they are looking at would be the prices or a repack would go up, and there not too sure how much yet. i mean, there would be more involved, you already have to do a close inspection, but with it being 180 days, it would have to be even a closer inspection."

I said (or tried to... Crazy) that we had the same debate here in canada where the repack cycle have been extended some years ago and that explanation have been brought to skydivers as the main reason why repack job prices have increased.

The point is that what appeared to be the real reason to raise prices is to keep the same level of incomes for the riggers (as there will be less pack jobs with 180 days cycle) and I AGREE WITH THAT! It's fair for everybody as no one will have to pay more and no one will make less money.
What I can't stand is trying to explain the increase with reasons like "...there would be more involved, you already have to do a close inspection, but with it being 180 days, it would have to be even a closer inspection."

OK, i shouldn't have used the word "lie" ; english is not my first language and sometimes exact and accurate words i should use don't come to my brain at the right moment so i write the closest word to replace it, so I'm sorry if it offend any riggers by saying not to lieWink The point is in no way to discredit the riggers and their job, only the attitude used by some to explain reality.

Hope it's more clear that waySmile

Simon-Pierre


SPY  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 12:49 PM
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Re: [rigging65] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By the way, for any of you out there who are still under the impression that 180 days is too long to keep your reserve confined and still have it open properly, ask PD why their reserves are factory certified to be packed for up to one year between inspections, or whatever time frame a legal body sets forth less than that.

The decision to inspect and repack reserves every 120 days was made long time ago when canopies were made of silk, a natural fiber more moist-heat-etc sensitive than what we use these days, nylon.


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 21, 2003, 1:04 PM
Post #16 of 22 (1075 views)
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Re: [SPY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

<<Hope it's more clear that way>>

Very clear. Thanks.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Feb 21, 2003, 1:17 PM
Post #17 of 22 (1066 views)
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Re: [callahan] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a rigger. I remember when the cycle was 60 days. I wouldn't change the rigor of my inspection at 60,120 or 180. A complete inspection is just that. I also wouldn't raise my rates if the cycle increased. But then I don't like packing reserves anyway, so I don't do much of it.


rigging65  (D 21921)

Feb 21, 2003, 4:01 PM
Post #18 of 22 (1026 views)
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Re: [SPY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
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In Reply To
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By the way, for any of you out there who are still under the impression that 180 days is too long to keep your reserve confined and still have it open properly, ask PD why their reserves are factory certified to be packed for up to one year between inspections, or whatever time frame a legal body sets forth less than that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The decision to inspect and repack reserves every 120 days was made long time ago when canopies were made of silk, a natural fiber more moist-heat-etc sensitive than what we use these days, nylon.

Yes it was...I'm not sure how that's relevant to that section of my post, but you're absolutely correct! Smile


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Feb 23, 2003, 5:20 AM
Post #19 of 22 (958 views)
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Re: [Gravitymaster] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Longer repack cycles benefit the rigger and the jumper as long as it can be shown there is no increased risks involved in extending the cycle. I think the jury is still out on that aspect though.

there is no increased risk. I've heard it all, ants in reserve container, coke spilled. As a rigger you have no controll over what happens to the rig when it leaves the loft. We know that 6 months is safe because everyone else has been using it. A yearly repack with a external inspections every 4 months like pd asked for would be even better. Less wear on the canopy and would help keep jumpers jumping.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 23, 2003, 7:24 AM
Post #20 of 22 (949 views)
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Re: [bodypilot90] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point about external inspections every 4 months.


Gravitymaster  (D License)

Feb 23, 2003, 8:55 AM
Post #21 of 22 (940 views)
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Re: [bodypilot90] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Longer repack cycles benefit the rigger and the jumper as long as it can be shown there is no increased risks involved in extending the cycle. I think the jury is still out on that aspect though.

there is no increased risk. I've heard it all, ants in reserve container, coke spilled. As a rigger you have no controll over what happens to the rig when it leaves the loft. We know that 6 months is safe because everyone else has been using it. A yearly repack with a external inspections every 4 months like pd asked for would be even better. Less wear on the canopy and would help keep jumpers jumping.

The latest position I have heard from PIA is they generally are in favor, but are still not ready to give a blanket endorsement to the 180 day repack cycle. Thats why I said the jury is still out.

http://www.pia.com/piapubs/pia180_2.pdf

I am unaware if they have officially changed their position since this publication. Does anyone else have any additional info?

Bob


alan  (D 17868)

Feb 24, 2003, 4:42 PM
Post #22 of 22 (879 views)
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Re: [ERICCONNELLY] 180 day reserve repack cycle - still fiction ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not really in reply to any post in particular, just here because of the $ issue raised.

How long does it take to do the job?
For me it may vary. It varies mostly due to the inspection. If it is a rig that I repacked the last time and am familiar with, it takes me about 1/2 hour to do the complete inspection. If it is a new rig, about 2 hours to inspect and assemble (just talking reserve here, double that when I do the main, which I do). If it is after use, at least an hour for inspection. If it is a rig that I have not seen before, I treat it as a new one and it takes nearly 2 hours.

Packing time is pretty consistent, but can vary with pop tops or very tight fits between the canopy and container. Usually 1/2 hour to 1 hour. Changing a loop or other minor maintenance can add a little time.

What is a fair rate to charge? I guess it depends on the market you are in and what you feel your time is worth. I also like to feel that by doing a little more for a little less $, I'm helping to keep my friends a little safer......giving back to the sport and all that.



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