Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas?

 

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rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 11:46 PM
Post #26 of 74 (1647 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shooting/ingesting/editing/Delivery of HD is not any different at all from doing SD. Same machines and burners to both.

Now I am confused, what is the reason for blue ray and blue ray players then if there is no difference, is the blue ray part simply the ability to play high definition footge?


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 11:49 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 24, 2010, 8:20 AM
Post #27 of 74 (1628 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently you're not understanding...
BD(blu-ray, not Blue ray) is a laser type. Nothing more.
It allows for various layers of a specific type of disc to be read differently. However, the system also reads older type DVDs, the same DVDs we've been using for years.
A DVD is merely a digital container. It can contain any number of different objects such as music, video, stills, data.... So a BD/Blu-ray player can read old/legacy files as well as new format files ie; AVCHD or high bitrate MPEG.

In short, the only reason one needs BD is if they want to view HD. If they have a computer, then BD is not necessary either, not for the kind of work product we create in skydiving.


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 24, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #28 of 74 (1620 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

What you don't seem to understand is that my standpoint is based on the fact the more than 70% of customers will still have a normal DVD player but a high definition TV.

My issue is with my customers understanding (or lack thereof) of what they need.

They will say they want high definition and order it and when they get home they will not be able to watch thier video.

Our custmers do not live just down the road they live in other countries and they WANT that video, and as easy as it would be for them to convert it, they will call me or email me and ask me to send them another one and I will be compelled to do so.

and it will cost me about $15 in postage and packaging + time, every time that happens.

This is one scenario of many that I am trying to avoid.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 24, 2010, 7:35 PM
Post #29 of 74 (1608 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

What you don't seem to understand is that my standpoint is based on the fact the more than 70% of customers will still have a normal DVD player but a high definition TV.

My issue is with my customers understanding (or lack thereof) of what they need.

They will say they want high definition and order it and when they get home they will not be able to watch thier video.

Our custmers do not live just down the road they live in other countries and they WANT that video, and as easy as it would be for them to convert it, they will call me or email me and ask me to send them another one and I will be compelled to do so.

and it will cost me about $15 in postage and packaging + time, every time that happens.

This is one scenario of many that I am trying to avoid.

Perhaps customers in New Zealand aren't as technically quick as people in Australia, Africa, or the US? I'm not understanding your point. You seem to have it in your head that you can't deliver both (which is what many DZ's offer; BOTH) while charging more for HD. I'd really hate to think that's so, as Fiji and other locations are doing very well with HD/SD choice delivery.

As well...why do you have to ship DVDs when you can hand em' over in less than 7 minutes, 10 minutes if you really take your time?


GalFisk  (D 23239)

Jul 26, 2010, 8:20 AM
Post #30 of 74 (1568 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think what he's trying to say is that some people will ask for HD when they don't have the equipment to play HD, because they don't know better. Such as people having a regular DVD player hooked upp to a HDTV.
Then when they cannot play their video, they will complain to him and he'll have to make them a SD version.
I wonder if it would be possible to hack together a hybrid DVD, where a DVD menu points to either normal DVD SD footage which a DVD player will understand, or HD footage which a computer or BD player will understand...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 26, 2010, 8:52 AM
Post #31 of 74 (1561 views)
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Re: [GalFisk] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think what he's trying to say is that some people will ask for HD when they don't have the equipment to play HD, because they don't know better. Such as people having a regular DVD player hooked upp to a HDTV.
Then when they cannot play their video, they will complain to him and he'll have to make them a SD version.
I wonder if it would be possible to hack together a hybrid DVD, where a DVD menu points to either normal DVD SD footage which a DVD player will understand, or HD footage which a computer or BD player will understand...

Earlier in this same thread, it's discussed. You actually have to do a little communicating. You can offer both. AFAIK, everyone that offers BD also offers SD. I can't for the life of me imagine offering HD but not SD. Someone actually has to open their mouth to speak to the student prior to the jump and ask "Do you have an HD player?"
In all the SD and HD discs we've delivered, never once has someone purchased an HD disc but only had an SD player.
And yes...there is a way to do a dual format disc. It's called a DVD10, and cannot be applied in a tandem operation. Unfortunately, it requires special equipment and a master.
You can put both on a disc or thumbdrive as data, however. Some newer disc players have USB inputs.


Jonntis  (D 22010)

Jul 26, 2010, 1:56 PM
Post #32 of 74 (1538 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you present it as DVD or Bluray, instead of HD or SD, you might avoid customers thinking they can play HD because they have an HDTV.


pope  (D 19947)

Jul 27, 2010, 7:03 PM
Post #33 of 74 (1480 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems that this whole discussion could become moot with better communication with the customer. If you can clearly tell the customer that they need to have the correct equipment to view the HD version of their tandem DVD, then your problem is over. This shouldn't be difficult because if they want this option you should be charging more to begin with and the customer should intuitively understand this.
Also, if this same customer for some reason takes their disc home overseas and can't play it on their SD DVD player, then you just charge them for your time and expense for the re-edit and shipping.

Maybe I'm not totally clear on this but this is what I think I'm hearing.
good luck!
pope


Mann

Jul 28, 2010, 8:16 PM
Post #34 of 74 (1441 views)
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Re: Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

HD can be also saved on a USB stick - and not necessarily on a BluRay. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 28, 2010, 8:40 PM
Post #35 of 74 (1435 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
HD can be also saved on a USB stick - and not necessarily on a BluRay. Correct me if I'm wrong.

HD can be saved on any digital device.
USB stick, MSPD stick, SD card, DVD, HDD, whatever.

T'is why I think the whole argument of "I don't want to sell HD because it might confuse SD customers" is a silly argument.


Mann

Aug 3, 2010, 3:09 PM
Post #36 of 74 (1380 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

A month after starting this thread, this is what I've found:

(I'm writing it down for future reference - or others facing the same issue. If anything needs correcting, I really appreciate your comments, cheers.)

Software solutions basically came down to 2 options:

* either Sony Vegas, which allows editing a project while another one is rendering, back-to-back (but will need a bloody powerful Windows computer) or
* any other non-linear software (Final Cut, Premiere, Edius, iMovie etc) which can only work on 1 project at a time (and therefore needs a few computers, otherwise there would be idle time between each edit waiting for it to render)

First, we considered getting Sony Vegas. I tested their trial version - its interface is quite different from Final Cut or iMovie that I've used before, but after getting used to it, it seems rather powerful: loads of effects and options.

But after a while, Final Cut seems like a better option, because:

* Sony Vegas only works with Windows, but we're keen on getting a Mac. Our other computers are Macs, they're reliable, easy to maintain and network, whereas with Windows we'd need a separate tech support, Sony Vegas' customer support doesn't have a phone in New Zealand, takes a week (in average) to answer any e-mails and when it does, it doesn't give straight answers, so it seems like a headache to begin with.
* Also, if there's only 1 editing station - a mother-of-a-computer - then if anything on it fails, there's no backup. So if we're better off getting multiple editing stations anyway, then we might as well get Macs with their native software, as Sony Vegas wouldn't really offer any advantage in that case.

So now we're considering Final Cut. It is Mac-based, with reliable tech and customer support and is likely to need 3 editing stations - to give each computer rendering time for preparing DVD files. Also, when exporting into High Definition Quicktime, there's virtually no rendering time necessary, so a customer can walk away with his USB pretty much straight after editing. As a lot of our customers are travellers, then they often have tiny laptops without CD/DVD slots and to them, having a DVD really isn't that convenient. Plus, my university-training was based on Final Cut and I'm pretty familiar with its interface and reasons why uni's video editing teachers preferred Apple/Final Cut to anything else.

So that's it, in a nutshell, although it's still work in progress.


4dbill  (D 11664)

Aug 3, 2010, 7:32 PM
Post #37 of 74 (1348 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

I consider myself pretty familiar with FCP since that's what I use for all my creative projects. It's a great NLE system when you have the luxury of time.
It's going to be frustratingly slow for tandem videos, however, since the goal of almost all tandem video is to whip 'em out as quickly as possible in the highest quality possible within 10 minute window.
That's not going to happen with FCP because,
1. You have to convert all Sony files to Apple ProRes into the timeline.
2. You have to manually put all clips together side by side.
3. You have to render all clips, which is much slower than Vegas.
4. You have to burn DVD using a separate DVD authoring software, which is much slower then integrated burning capability within Vegas.

I do not know the programming capability of FCP, but I do not believe you can automate any of the steps, out of the box at least.

Again, I love FCP because its one heck of powerful software that can carry on any creative project. If its good enough for Hollywood, its good enough for any artist, but when it comes to speed for tandem video editing/authoring, its a dog.
I wish you luck, and I am looking forward to your report when you get everything set up.

4DBill


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 3, 2010, 9:25 PM
Post #38 of 74 (1338 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand all your points. Honest, I do.
I'm a certified Apple, Adobe, and Sony instructor, FWIW.
Buying Final Cut "Because we're keen on Mac's" is a silly proposition from that particular statement alone.
Video computers do not need much networking (if any at all) in a tandem operation, and Windows is every bit as easy to network as a Mac these days.

That said...whatever works for you, works for you.
There are two Mac-based DZ's that have recently installed monster Vegas systems with Automation...Because it's about choosing the right tool for the right job.
If speed isn't part of your need (which you mentioned earlier it was), then you need to reconsider your tools.


DARK  (B 31685)

Aug 4, 2010, 9:01 AM
Post #39 of 74 (1297 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey dse ill be buying the new 27inch imac and getting the upgraded processor and ram in the next few weeks

i am getting this because i like macs, my college uses mainly fcp on its regular machines so its good for compatibiliy

BUT

next summer ill be finished college and will be back in the states and will probably have tandem / general skydive footage to edit

have you done any benchmark testing on using vegas threw parellels or booting into windows at start up on a mac? im hoping that with a 2.8/2.9 quad core and 8gb of ram that the rendering times will be acceptable when using windows on the mac


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 4, 2010, 10:18 AM
Post #40 of 74 (1283 views)
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Re: [DARK] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the issues on the Mac side from I understand is that at the hardware level the Mac's have some of the code disabled on processor to do some of the MPEG decoding and even running Parellels won't help over come that issue.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Aug 4, 2010, 10:00 PM
Post #41 of 74 (1231 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One of the issues on the Mac side from I understand is that at the hardware level the Mac's have some of the code disabled on processor to do some of the MPEG decoding and even running Parellels won't help over come that issue.

Exactly right.
Apple and MPEG is a bullshit combination. There is simply no other way to say it.


adamT  (D 26819)

Aug 4, 2010, 10:14 PM
Post #42 of 74 (1230 views)
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Re: [DARK] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

The imac will run vegas fine running windows through bootcamp. Not so much through parellels unless you have it setup to boot into windows natively.

So if you need os x for something else keep that in mind.


DARK  (B 31685)

Aug 5, 2010, 6:39 AM
Post #43 of 74 (1202 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One of the issues on the Mac side from I understand is that at the hardware level the Mac's have some of the code disabled on processor to do some of the MPEG decoding and even running Parellels won't help over come that issue.

Exactly right.
Apple and MPEG is a bullshit combination. There is simply no other way to say it.

so any ideas on how much of a performance loss there would be? 10% /20% or something way more dramatic like 50% or more? eventually i would just do a dedicated pc build for vegas but if i could edit render and burn on the imac in 15 mins i would do that in the mean time


adamT  (D 26819)

Aug 5, 2010, 7:12 AM
Post #44 of 74 (1200 views)
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Re: [DARK] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing is disabled in hardware, its an os x issue. Run windows natively and it will be just like a pc of equivalent hardware.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 5, 2010, 7:42 AM
Post #45 of 74 (1194 views)
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Re: [adamT] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct, I misspoke on it. Its not a chip code change but its that Apple's OS will not use the hardware level acceleration abilities and instead moves everything to software. Once its moved to software its a LOT slower and its because Apple does not use the hardware code. Bootcamp will eliminate this issue because it lets Windows run with no OS X issues under it.


adamT  (D 26819)

Aug 5, 2010, 8:13 AM
Post #46 of 74 (1185 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup and if vegas is going to be your main application its kind of silly to spend the extra money on a mac, but if you need os x for other things its a workable solution.


Mann

Oct 25, 2010, 6:59 PM
Post #47 of 74 (1063 views)
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Re: [4dbill] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wish you luck, and I am looking forward to your report when you get everything set up.

4DBill

After a long (and often painful) process of going through pros and cons of pretty much every editing system we knew COULD work - to find what would work the best - we did finally settle on Sony Vegas. Reasons? It proved to be the fastest way of editing due to no import time (working straight from MS cards) and DVD burning straight from timeline (no need to render first and then burn).

It's been a month since we gradually started to move all of our editing onto Vegas and truth be told, I, personally, haven't looked back.

So, what we did, in short:

We put Vegas on a 8-core 64-bit PC with Windows Professional. Hardcore-wise, I don't know what's inside it, since a technoguru-sort-of-a-guy set it up, but it's supposedly high-end "meant for editing" workhorse. (Also, it cost accordingly.)

I spent a better part of 3 weeks in August testing Sony Vegas trial version to figure out the fastest and easiest workflow for our needs. When I finally landed with what I considered "a pretty good way of editing", it timed 4,5 minutes from inserting a video card to pressing "Burn DVD". And that's without Production Assistant.

Now, a month into working fully on Sony Vegas, it takes me a comfortable and leisurely 4 minutes tops per edit: checking the footage, adding slow motions, working with sound, adding 3 sets of songs, checking that I like what I've made.

So am I happy? Yes. It works, it looks good, it saves my time. Is our dropzone happy? Yes.

But I do miss working on a Mac. Occasionally, Windows presents me with error messages I've learned to regard as purely something only Windows does and not always explaining me WHY it didn't like what I was doing - and what it needs me to change next time I do it. But over time and trial/error, we've made sort of a peace agreement with it: I do things patiently, let it take its time when it's "thinking" and in exchange, it lets me work without complaining.

In overall, Vegas seems to have an array of functions I do not need (for tandem footage) and lacks only a few comfort-related shortcuts I'd love, but all in all, I'd say that in a hands of a good video editor, it is very much a powerful tool for a busy dropzone.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 25, 2010, 11:30 PM
Post #48 of 74 (1036 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for reporting back.
You're very fast, that's wonderful to hear.


bigorangemd  (D 30922)

Oct 26, 2010, 8:25 PM
Post #49 of 74 (974 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

You say you can burn straight from timeline without rendering? Not sure how to do that. I make the timeline then have to press "Make Movie" to render, then send to DVD studio.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 26, 2010, 8:29 PM
Post #50 of 74 (973 views)
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Re: [bigorangemd] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're using Movie Studio.
Mann is using Vegas Pro.


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