Forums: Archive: 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections:
USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 15, 2010, 8:47 AM
Post #101 of 140 (1463 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

>The way I count, that comes to 95% of the membership did not say "yes" and 5% did.

By that logic, 95% of the membership does not say "yes" to _any_ elected official - so none should ever be elected.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 15, 2010, 8:48 AM
Post #102 of 140 (1463 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

This statement

Quote:
Proxy voting is acceptable in organizations were the members have transferable rights or privileges, such as stock in a company.

Citation, please. It's patently false - many member-based (non-transferable) organizations have proxy voting. It's merely a tool by which an individual can empower another to cast a vote on his or her behalf. What on God's green earth does that have to do with transferable rights or privileges?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jul 15, 2010, 9:00 AM
Post #103 of 140 (1454 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wait, wait, wait... I'm missing something here...

There are people here who do not like the incumbent USPA Board and want them voted out.

The same people (more or less, with a few exceptions) are saying that they want to vote "no" to the idea of on line voting.

From the point of view of the anti-incumbent folks, part of the problem they face is the fact that only 10% of the membership votes - and they tend to reelect the same board (the ones the anti-incumbent folks don't like), right?

On line voting is a well documented means of increasing voter participation.

So, in short, the anti-incumbent folks should be crapping themselves in joy over the notion that - if the proposal passes - lots more folks might vote (and therefore increase the probability that the people they don't like get voted out).

Honestly? If I were a bad Board director, the LAST thing I'd want is to have this proposal pass, because it would increase the probability I'd get voted out.

(As full disclaimer of my position, I don't care if the USPA Board stays the same, changes, or is replaced entirely by lizard people. It just doesn't matter to me. As a corporate lawyer, though, I think sticking with paper ballots is archaic and silly.)

- Jeff

P.S., as a lawyer who has worked on proxy solicitations, I can confirm that the grant of authority is not overly broad under New York law - it would basically require the Secretary to vote in favor of the proposed amendment to the by laws. Anything beyond that would exceed the scope of authority granted by the proxy...

All you say may be true.

So then, how do you explain that it is exactly some of the board who are asking for this change? That would seem, by your analysis, to be suspicious, no?

Actually, that doesn't get my attention.

My reason for not supporting online voting is the cost/benefit analysis as it appears to me.

Greater participation from the voters may be a side effect, but it does not necessarily suggest better participation.

No matter what the issues, I prefer sincerely interested voters over casual unstudied voters. Whether my side wins or loses, I prefer that the people who vote have taken the time to make the vote meaningful.

We already have a membership that does not take the time to send a paper ballot. There's no reason to expect that the online voters will do any better, and the cost is a lot higher than what we spend now.

Should more unstudied voters start voting, it is unlikely that the quality of the decisions will improve.

So, I essentially see this as a lose/lose proposition; higher cost and lower quality voting. That's doesn't make me happy.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 15, 2010, 9:16 AM
Post #104 of 140 (1446 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So then, how do you explain that it is exactly some of the board who are asking for this change? That would seem, by your analysis, to be suspicious, no?

Well, if they are as bad as the naysayers say, then I would assume what is going on is the well known phenomenon that people self-perceive of themselves as being better at what they do than how they really are. In other words, they must think that by and large people like them and only a small minority of folks want them out.

Two possibilities then: they'd be right (in which case, all things being equal, they should be reelected) or they'd be wrong (in which case they rightfully should be removed, and would be with the greater vote turn out).

Quote:
We already have a membership that does not take the time to send a paper ballot. There's no reason to expect that the online voters will do any better, and the cost is a lot higher than what we spend now.

Using that logic, why permit proxies at all? People should have to travel to the meeting in person and vote if they really care and have thought about the issues. Sticking a proxy in the mail doesn't weed out the uninformed, like me, who still vote. I should have to drive my ass up to lovely and historic Nashua, NH if I want my vote counted.

The problem with that? It would encourage too FEW people to vote - and usually what happens when large organizations require in person voting, fringe elements take over. (I once had a client that had by-laws that dated from 1904; they had no provision for proxy votes in the by-laws because it was originally a 12 member organization that ballooned to a couple hundred. It was a mess, because lunatic fringe Group A was ousted by equally lunatic fringe Group B, and that became a process that repeated annually...)

To be clear, this isn't a statement about the Board composition we have here: I don't know who the fringe is here - the incumbents or the anti-incumbents. Hell, maybe they both are...

As for cost, for companies that have adopted online voting, it's more expensive to set up, but usually pays for itself in under ten years.

Edited to add the word "usually" in the last sentence and to add the word "have" that I dropped from a sentence.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jul 15, 2010, 2:52 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jul 16, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #105 of 140 (1388 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It was announced this morning that the number for a quorum has been reached, although remaining proxies are still being counted. Deadline is close of business today (almost upon us as I am writing this Final tally will be called in shortly afterwards and the final vote is tonight.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
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Jul 16, 2010, 4:41 PM
Post #106 of 140 (1373 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

ONLINE VOTING MOTION PASSED 4088 to 66 (1 abstention) 4106 total proxies submitted.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Jul 16, 2010, 7:54 PM
Post #107 of 140 (1346 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The practice was not only approved but encouraged because of USPAs 30,000-some members, no more than ten percent actually vote in the elections a significant fraction on photocopied ballots furnished by director candidates.


Quote:
ONLINE VOTING MOTION PASSED 4088 to 66 (1 abstention) 4106 total proxies submitted.

More people voted in the proxy "election" than vote in the regular elections? This internet stuff is really powerful!!


(This post was edited by BobMoore on Jul 16, 2010, 7:55 PM)


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jul 16, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #108 of 140 (1341 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

There were members at the General Membership meeting. They voted in person (including me). We did not fill out proxy forms.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 20, 2010, 9:10 AM
Post #109 of 140 (1270 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I do wonder how many votes of that was triggered by this thread becoming a sticky. I certainly did not anticipate stirring too much controversy, but that's the nature of the game to live with --

Anyway, it's now the membership's imperative to make sure that USPA follows through in a non-wasteful manner (where possible), the online voting system which I think is already proposed to be eballot.votenet.com ... some people do bring up a good point about properly implementing such systems, in a trustworthy way, in a way that avoids cost overrun (or too much).

... My research of this system suggests this is a pretty good system, all things considered. I read some statistics on that system and it seems to have something like an approximately 95% satisfaction rating although it appears that it only has a 40%-50% chance of saving money, according to case studies. Then again, it does mean that more elections can be held more cheaply at a more-fixed less-variable price, easily paying for itself and contributing to the high satisfaction rating. I hope there is 'appropriately qualified' people at USPA with the smarts to integrate the eballot system properly, without too much cost overrun.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 20, 2010, 9:12 AM)


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jul 20, 2010, 12:57 PM
Post #110 of 140 (1246 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

If you vote in person, by definition you don't need a proxy.

A proxy basically is when you authorize someone to vote on your behalf. If you're at the meeting, you don't need someone to vote on your behalf.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 24, 2010, 6:01 AM
Post #111 of 140 (1202 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Final Proxy Update from Nominations and Elections

The count on the proxies/votes was 4088 in favor of the online voting proposal and 66 against. The motion carried to allow the board to make the necessary changes to allow for online voting ONLY.

Constitution and Bylaws, Chaired by Mike Mullins passed a motion to delete two words in Article V Section 1 of the By-Laws. It did read, "Ballot Election by mail". The motion was to delete the words "by mail".

The other change was one word in Article V Section 7. It did read, "Ballots that do not contain the voting member's original signature will be declared invalid." The motion was to add the word "paper" before the word ballots. So that it would read "Paper ballots that do not contain".etc.

The motion was passed by the full board and nothing else was changed using the proxy vote. The proxies have expired and are of no further use. They are in storage for a period of time and will be destroyed at a later date.

The remainder went to the Nominations and Elections Committee. This will come out with the committee report when it is published. Essentially, changes were made in Section 3 of the Governance Manual to facilitate online voting, but the changes did not require a vote of the members. Section 3 can be changed by a 2/3 vote of the board. These changes were submitted to the board in advance, approved by the committee and then forwarded to the board and approved.

I don't like to use the word "housekeeping", but that is essentially what it was. It cleaned up those areas referring to paper ballots and redefined "Approved format" as follows":

1. A paper ballot contained in Parachutist Magazine
2. A printed ballot from the USPA website.
3. A photocopied ballot of either 1. or 2. above.
4. An electronic ballot prepared by USPA for online voting.

The committee then discussed costs and addressed requests by Ed Scott, Executive Director. A motion was made and approved to ask for $20,385 to pay for online voting. It passed and was forwarded to Finance and Budget for their approval. USPA needs to set up a password/username system of its own. That would cut several thousand off of the above costs. Also, $2500 of the above figure is for paper ballot entry into the system making the online system cost $17,785.

We could substantially cut these costs in the future by implementing our own online voting system. Staff is presently looking at a database system that has a voting module included. The downside is security. The "in house" system would not have the security features of Votenet/Eballot.

This will be a learning experience for the board and USPA staff. Please be patient as we learn better ways to do this in the future. If you see better ways to do things as we progress, please submit proposals for changes so that the process can be improved.

Disclaimer: These are things I saw and was a participant. They are from my memory and are not in any way to be taken as officially from USPA. The associated documents will be prepared and published on the USPA website and will be the official word from USPA.

Blue Skies,

Ed Dixon
N&E Chair


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 25, 2010, 5:02 AM
Post #112 of 140 (1167 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Ed, the information is appreciated, and congrats on bringing the change.


flyhi  (D License)

Jul 27, 2010, 6:08 AM
Post #113 of 140 (1091 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Ed,

I'm sure it goes without saying, so I am going to ask you to say, is there enough time to have this in place for the 2010 election?


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)
Moderator
Jul 27, 2010, 6:50 AM
Post #114 of 140 (1082 views)
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Re: [flyhi] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It will be in place for the 2010 election.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 4, 2010, 2:42 PM
Post #115 of 140 (939 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I have not heard about the exact procedure as of yet. Is there any insight as to how the online voting will take place. I have heard many concerns about security or maintaining the integrity of the election. I imagine it will be posted soon.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 27, 2010, 3:17 PM
Post #116 of 140 (780 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

It will probably be figured out after the election (JOKEWink)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Oct 29, 2010, 4:50 PM
Post #117 of 140 (723 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It will probably be figured out after the election (JOKEWink)

NOT!

Cool


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 29, 2010, 8:53 PM
Post #118 of 140 (697 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I have heard it is an email blast to all valid uspa members with a email address. There will be a link provided. I am not sure why this is so top secret with the election starting on the 1st.


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:33 AM
Post #119 of 140 (640 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I just received and tried the link.
A few things:

It doesn't work with Firefox.
Internet Exploder requires a "Password Provided by e-mail " that wasn't provided.

Laugh


buff  (D 30567)

Nov 1, 2010, 7:34 AM
Post #120 of 140 (640 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I got the e-mail this a.m. with a link to vote. The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

Voting runs from Nov 1st until Dec 31st but it appears from the email that if you want to e-vote, you have 3 days.


MakeItHappen

Nov 1, 2010, 8:12 AM
Post #121 of 140 (628 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well I got the e-mail this a.m. with a link to vote. The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

Voting runs from Nov 1st until Dec 31st but it appears from the email that if you want to e-vote, you have 3 days.

All that was in my email was
"This e-mail was sent on behalf of United States Parachute Association (USPA) by Votenet Solutions Inc.<br>located at 1420 K St NW, Washington, DC 20005 (USA).<br>To receive no further e-mails, please reply to this message with 'unsubscribe' in the subject line."
and a web bug that went to http://tracking.votenet.com/images/invisible.gif

.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:15 AM
Post #122 of 140 (625 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was looking forward to the e-vote but since I don't know who is on the ballot and don't have the mag with me, I guess the link will expire.

You can view the profiles of the candidates if you follow the link.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:28 AM
Post #123 of 140 (618 views)
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Re: [buff] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The link expires in 3 days and does not say whether it will be reissued.

My email (and I assume all emails) says "If you are unable to participate now or open this e-mail after this link has expired, USPA will be sending periodic reminders with an updated link. "


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:40 AM
Post #124 of 140 (612 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

I opened the link, found that I was automatically logged in, and had no problem voting. The only choice for Regional Director was the candidate from my region (I'm sure my mailing zip code was used to determine this) with the option for writing in someone else.

All in all, a very quick easy experience. I was using Windows IE.


(This post was edited by SkydiveJack on Nov 1, 2010, 8:41 AM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Nov 1, 2010, 8:47 AM
Post #125 of 140 (602 views)
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Re: [SkydiveJack] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

The link was down for the first three attempts but eventually it worked and was easy to view candidate biographies and vote.


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Forums : Archive : 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections

 


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