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Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas?

 

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Mann

Jun 29, 2010, 4:29 PM
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Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? Can't Post

I'm a video editor at a very busy (tandem) dropzone. At the moment, editing averages 8 minutes per footage, so a customer can walk out the door with a DVD in hand within, say, 20 minutes of landing. Pretty darn convenient.

(DVD writer captures the footage straight from camera, transitions already added while filming, and I mix in some music through a soundboard. Editing time = video time + 2 min.)

It has worked very well in an era of SD video. With the coming of HD, however, we're looking into setting up a new video editing system, because our cameramen are already filming in HD, but customers are still getting SD videos as we're burning everything onto DVD's. And that's not cool.

Adamant that a customer needs to receive 1) HD footage in 2) very short time, here's my question of the past few months: how's the best way to do that?

(I'm writing this partially because I'm looking for some input; partially because I want to share the road. I've seen other threads discuss general video editing, but nothing that would discuss specifically this: editing videos on back-to-back loads and giving out finished product within half an hour of landing, in HD.)

So far, we've come up to this: if we want to give out
1) edited footage in HD and also
2) edited footage in YouTube-size (so that it can be uploaded straight from our dropzone computers),
we need to switch to editing software like Final Cut, Premiere, Pinnacle or similar. That way, I'll edit footage once and "share" it into 2 different-quality videos.

The problem, though: all editing softwares (that I'm aware of) "lock down" while footage is being imported or exported: I cannot do anything else while footage is being imported from a card into software or exported from software onto a destination drive. As a busy dropzone, though, there's no time for that: everything needs to be edited back-to-back.

So: does anybody know if there's editing software that does NOT "lock down" while importing/exporting?

***

Bringing down import/export time with a VERY powerful computer is an option, so we've considered getting a quad-core Mac. But: how fast would be fast? And does the latest version of any given software actually "know" how to use full capacity of a quad-core Mac?

***

The other option is somehow working around the "lock down" problem. For example:

1) setting up a few Macs: while one computer is importing, I'm using the second for editing and third is exporting. That'd be a costly bugger, though.

2) using a few different softwares: while, say, Final Cut is importing, I'm editing something else on Premiere and so forth. That'd be a pain-in-the-butt for training up back-up editors.

3) setting up different users within the same Mac, so while Final Cut under one user is importing, I'm logged in as another user and editing. Both a guy from the Apple store and a local computer guy said: "Better not do that, love." =)

***

Another idea is using iMovie for importing (it converts footage into .aic) and then throwing imported footage into Final Cut Express for actual editing. Has anybody used that option? Are there any other softwares that can import/export for one another

***
***
***

Basically, it's a one long-winded topic. So far, our boys have had their say, our marketing people have had theirs, our owners have, our manifest has, I have, computer support has - and still there are so many options.

What do you think?


stratostar  (Student)

Jun 29, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #2 of 74 (4395 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on my limited understanding of the newer stuff, it seems to me that most people trying to HD or AVCHD formats are using vegas pro and are able to work on a number of videos at the sametime. A quick search on this fourm will provide you a number of threads on the subject.

Also the current mod on this forum works for a company that produces educational video to teach you how to use the editing program to it's fullest, also would be found in a search of this fourm.

While mac is a nice machine, I own a G4, the pisser is mac refuses to license AVCHD codec. thus making a windows machine running vagas pro a faster and better way to go.

It's my understanding dvd's are done in 3 to 4 mins tops using the tools in vegas. DSE is the one to ask or the others he has trained or help set up.


Mann

Jun 29, 2010, 5:38 PM
Post #3 of 74 (4388 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cheers for that =). Will look into it.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jun 29, 2010, 5:43 PM
Post #4 of 74 (4387 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Vegas is the ONLY app that allows for multiple instances being open while importing, editing, rendering.
All other apps require one machine per active instance.

http://www.vimeo.com/3025592/

Try the link above.
Disclaimer-: my company developed this software for Sony.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 29, 2010, 6:07 PM)


Mann

Jun 29, 2010, 6:01 PM
Post #5 of 74 (4381 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.vimeo.com/3025592/

Try the link above.
Disclaimer-: my company developed this software for Sony.

While I think motorcycle trailers are really handy when it comes to riding... how was THAT link connected to video editing and Sony Vegas? =D


(This post was edited by DSE on Jun 29, 2010, 6:08 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jun 29, 2010, 6:08 PM
Post #6 of 74 (4376 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushThat's what happens when you have multiple clipboards. I'm sorry!


Mann

Jun 29, 2010, 6:35 PM
Post #7 of 74 (4368 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.vimeo.com/3025592/

Try the link above.
Disclaimer-: my company developed this software for Sony.

DES, I watched your videos. When you write "my company developed this software for Sony", you're not talking about plug-ins for Sony Vegas, are you? Just an instructional DVD about using Sony Vegas, right? Or am I missing something?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jun 29, 2010, 6:44 PM
Post #8 of 74 (4363 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

The tool you see in the video is the Sony Production Assistant plugin.
My company (my brainchild) created this software for Sony.
I do not receive a benefit for the software sales, however.
And yes...my company also does training videos.


grayhghost  (Student)

Jun 30, 2010, 8:28 AM
Post #9 of 74 (4270 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

To avoid the lockup issue you can use a suite of programs. In Final Cut you can use the "send to" command to export the job using compressor. This will let you keep working in final cut while exporting multiple versions of the video.
Premier and media encoder should work in the same way.

The Mac Pros are due for an update so I wouldn't get one.


(This post was edited by grayhghost on Jun 30, 2010, 10:13 AM)


Mann

Jul 20, 2010, 6:07 PM
Post #10 of 74 (4017 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, I heard that Edius 5 should do the job of editing:

* on-the-spot
* without rendering
* without "locking down" while importing/exporting

There's virtually no information about Edius 5 on dropzone.com. Anybody have first hand experience?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 21, 2010, 2:41 AM
Post #11 of 74 (3973 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

you heard incorrectly.
All NLE's can edit "on the spot" except FCP.
All NLE's require renders to any output format that can be transported ie; DVD or YouTube, thumbdrive.
All NLE's can import media without affecting background operations, but only one NLE is capable of rendering to multiple sources while editing on another source.


Mann

Jul 21, 2010, 4:15 PM
Post #12 of 74 (3913 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you heard incorrectly.
All NLE's can edit "on the spot" except FCP.
All NLE's require renders to any output format that can be transported ie; DVD or YouTube, thumbdrive.
All NLE's can import media without affecting background operations, but only one NLE is capable of rendering to multiple sources while editing on another source.

DSE, one day when we meet on a dropzone somewhere, I'm gonna bring you a case of beer =)


CharlieAt

Jul 22, 2010, 11:34 PM
Post #13 of 74 (3825 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Maria!

seeing as you are taiking about a couple of macs, have you considered final cut server. it supports "Multiformat delivery" http://www.apple.com/...atures/delivery.html. ie setup a target to render to mpeg2 and youtube-size for each export. seeing as it is not too hardware bound it should run on a hackentosh too :-).
thus one machine to ingest from the video guys firewire/h264 -> aic/prores and into fcs, one machine to do the editing (fetch from fcs, edit return to fcs) and fcs export to dvd and youtube.
saw a presentation here about a year ago on fcs and fcp, was quite amazing what they were doing.
maybe someone at apple nz could give you a mini demo of the capabilities.
I just tested final cut express (4.0.1) and was able to import h264 from my camera's memory card and work on a project in parallel in the same instance, so no lockup there (though I somehow doubt that this will work with firewire import). during export there is a definite lockup.
regards
charlie


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 23, 2010, 1:43 PM
Post #14 of 74 (3787 views)
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Re: [CharlieAt] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

For 999.00 you can batch render on a costly machine.
You still can't burn simultaneous burns, can't edit on simultaneous, unique projects, nor ingest multiple cards at one shot while doing all of the above.

If you're really a die-hard Mac fan as opposed to choosing hammers for pounding nails and saws for cutting wood...it's a good way to go.
As a user of both PC and Apple solutions, I don't see the attraction.
$4k (about the cost of a single well-appointed Mac, but still doesn't include multiple burners or the server system) will get you two powerhouse, multicore PC systems with software and hardware to burn 6 DVDs at once while editing, ingesting, rendering, and uploading to YouTube all at the same time. All while editing natively (no file format conversion).
All at a quality maintain vs a quality loss.

Isn't the purpose of a computer to multitask without spending a fortune?


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 5:36 PM
Post #15 of 74 (3767 views)
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Re: [Mann] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
setting up a new video editing system, because our cameramen are already filming in HD, but customers are still getting SD videos as we're burning everything onto DVD's. And that's not cool.

So you want to burn on Blue ray?

I have thought about this, and as many customers are ready for this, many are not.

Wouldn't you be better sticking with SD for now and actually editing on a computer and get the the high definition when you and your customers are ready?

Correct me if I am wrong but you can't burn HD footage onto a dvd, so you have to use Blue ray or HDDVD, which not everybody has a player. and HDDVD is going the same way as Beta video?

So you will have to do both SD and blue ray and your camera guys will have to get HD lenses.

It is close for all that but not quite there yet I don't reckon.

Computer editing is an undertaking on its own and you will find less and less cameras with editing functions in them.

You said you do all the editing on the camera that is also HD. Is that a HD mini DV camer or what camera/editing?

Burning in HD is is a whole other can of worms.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 6:02 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jul 23, 2010, 6:57 PM
Post #16 of 74 (3752 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong but you can't burn HD footage onto a dvd, so you have to use Blue ray or HDDVD, which not everybody has a player. and HDDVD is going the same way as Beta video?

BZZZZ, wrong answer Tongue You can burn AVCHD footage to a normal DVD in mode 5 and it will be HD footage that is playable on BluRay and PS3 consoles. The disk is only playable on those devices though so you need to make sure they don't try to play it in a normal DVD player.

HDDVD is already dead. There is not a company that is making HDDVD's anymore or the player for them. I have an HDDVD player and all I have are 5 HDDVD's for it so its already worse then BetaMax. Laugh

You can burn to BluRay but why? The cost of a BluRay disk is still $2-3 or higher per disk. A BluRay will hold 25gigs of video, a DVD will hold 4.7 gigs of video. The largest I've seen a HD tandem video run is about 1.5 gigs. Its not even close to filling a DVD for size let alone going over that mark. If you are doing something like Year End or Best of videos that are going to be 30-45 minute epic master pieces... sure you might go over the 4.7 gig file size abnd need a BluRay.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Jul 23, 2010, 6:58 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 7:44 PM
Post #17 of 74 (3748 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can burn to BluRay but why?... ... to be 30-45 minute epic master pieces... sure you might go over the 4.7 gig file size abnd need a BluRay.

Thanks for that. I 'think' that clarifies a couple of issues;
So you can burn a short HD video onto a DVD and a DVD will play it in standard definition and a blue ray will pay it in HD?

Is the difference between DVD and Blue ray disks just storage volume?

I thought it was a complete different system for high definition? i.e. blueray and HD DVD...


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 7:46 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jul 23, 2010, 8:06 PM
Post #18 of 74 (3739 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you Burn AVCHD footage to a DVD-5 then the only player that can read it is a BlueRay player. If you put that disk in a DVD player it is unusable. If you burn SD footage to a DVD then a DVD or BluRay player can read it.

BluRay and HD DVD were competing formats for playing High Definition video on a disk. HD DVD as a format is dead. DEAD. D-E-A-D. The only High Definition format that is currently supported is Blu-Ray.

AVCHD footage on a DVD-5 is tricking a BlueRay player into playing High Def codec compressed footage off a normal DVD. The downside is the files are unreadable on a normal DVD player. BluRay players can play BluRays or DVD's so it just sees the footage as a datastream and plays it with out caring if its HD or SD.

The difference in storage abilities is a huge difference, HD Movies are HUGE and will not fit on a standard DVD in HD quality so they had to design a whole new laser and method to put more and more data on the same size disk. The longer the movie the larger the files, some HD movies are pushing 22 gigs of size on the disk. To do this on a DVD you would be asked to change the disk 4-5 times during the course of watching a movie at home.


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 8:54 PM
Post #19 of 74 (3734 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

so I was correct in the first place then!
Laugh

Except... at least beta hung around in the prosumer market. for a whileLaugh

All I now is that HD skydive vids are a can of worms that will cost lots on postage and re-do's!!


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 8:58 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 23, 2010, 8:58 PM
Post #20 of 74 (3730 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you're not correct at all
A-Burning hi-def DVD's isn't "a whole 'nother can of worms." It's straightforward as hell, no different than burning a regular DVD 5.
B-You CAN burn HD on a DVD5, which you said can't be done. You CAN'T play that in a normal DVD player, it must be a BD player, computer, or PS3.

However, what this DOES mean to a DZ is that they don't need to invest in BD burners, and can still burn HD on a standard DVD5, same thing they're burning SD DVDs on.

A computer doesn't need to be a lot bigger/better/faster to edit HD and burn HD. HD is more compressed, requiring more CPU, but outside of that...it's all the same as SD video for the most part.


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 9:02 PM
Post #21 of 74 (3728 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, you're not correct at all
A-Burning hi-def DVD's isn't "a whole 'nother can of worms." It's straightforward as hell, no different than burning a regular DVD 5.
B-You CAN burn HD on a DVD5, which you said can't be done. You CAN'T play that in a normal DVD player, it must be a BD player, computer, or PS3.

I see that you can infact put a HD video on a DVD and play it as high def in a blue ray player, simple.

The Difficulty is the people that have a dvd player with a HD (ready) TV that order a hd dvd off us and can't play it when they get home = $$$ time time time. I want 1 system that works for most people without fucking around.

Until the majority of people have blue ray players, which will still take time, it is not worth it.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 9:03 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 23, 2010, 9:16 PM
Post #22 of 74 (3723 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is why at restaurants they have an offering called a "menu."

You want a burger and fries=5.99.
You want a steak and fries=19.99

Smart business offers people more than one choice.
Your earlier post said that HD was harder than SD, and that HD can't be burned on a standard disc. I'm not sure which side of the coin you're debating.

Give people a choice. Charge more for HD. If they ask for HD, this would generally mean they have a Blu-ray player or PS3 game console. If you're not sure...ask.


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 10:33 PM
Post #23 of 74 (3718 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like in and out burgers menu, that works too right!


rhys  (D 95)

Jul 23, 2010, 10:42 PM
Post #24 of 74 (3716 views)
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Re: [DSE] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Give people a choice. Charge more for HD. If they ask for HD, this would generally mean they have a Blu-ray player or PS3 game console. If you're not sure...ask.

Maybe down the track, too much at the moment, our footage is 10x better than many places anyway that are still using dv tapes and analogue editing and we put time into our product, as i said HD is just dowm the road, and that will be at the time it ceases to be an encumberence.

I am sure it is much less of an encumberence to you than most but simple changes like that have dire consequnces if not approached properly anf that can const some serious $$.

I have seen the busiest tandem dropzone in Australia recently purchas $20k worth of computer and program (vegas) and invest in it only to go back to using the system (mac) they had before as it was difficult to make a new system as effective as the last. the older system was 'what they knew', changing takes time and when it cost you time it cost you money.

It all comes down to your system and infrastucture, what works for you will not work for someone else.

I like things that work for everybody.


(This post was edited by rhys on Jul 23, 2010, 10:46 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 23, 2010, 11:00 PM
Post #25 of 74 (3711 views)
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Re: [rhys] Editing HD tandem-footage on-the-spot, fast. Any ideas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Again...you're putting something out there that isn't remotely accurate.
Shooting/ingesting/editing/Delivery of HD is not any different at all from doing SD. Same machines and burners to both.

Now...if you're looking at attempting to offer "one size fits all" then you're right. you won't find it.

Because some people want HD and they're willing to pay for it. Others aren't.
As far as the DZ that "heavily invested 20K in Vegas.....I've thrice asked for their name. It is beyond rational imagination that any business would turn away from a PC multitask for Apple singular task that cost twice as much to boot.
With out a name...I don't believe they exist.


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