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USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled

 

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robinheid  (D 5533)

Jun 30, 2010, 7:50 PM
Post #51 of 140 (1575 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That looks pretty accurate except that it is past history.

It is best saved for election time. Members wanted change in '08 and they got it. Glen is not President, BJ no longer Chairs N&E and Larry Bagley is no longer an advisor to N&E. The problems you mention are, in my opinion, resolved, for now. You got your change so give those of us who are trying to overcome things you mention a break. You are forgetting a major force in the change.....Jay Stokes. He can be trusted.

+1 on Jay!

But, prez or not, he's only one guy and if you look at what started this thread, it was a propaganda missive from, you guessed it, BJ Worth, the guy who "no longer Chairs N&E."

And if you look at the USPA masthead, it still carries the name of Larry Bagley, who "is no longer an advisor to N&E."

So please give us a break, Ed. Their titles may change and their chairs may move, but the bottom line remains the same:

BJ is still in this up to his eyeballs and until Bags cashes his last USPA check, he'll be sneaking around the back rooms doing his little tricks the same way he has for 20 years.

Cool


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jun 30, 2010, 11:41 PM
Post #52 of 140 (1550 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The way this should have gone down: EVERY one of these details should have been ironed out and disclosed to the voting membership PRIOR to asking for a proxy.
Well, now he brings up a point that requires some thought. Some good arguments, some...
(Apparently, I'm standing on a powderkeg too. Unintentionally.)

One would think that there was some research, learning experience and study on the online voting systems. (After 2008 experience)


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jun 30, 2010, 11:44 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 1, 2010, 4:00 AM
Post #53 of 140 (1542 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay Robin,

Having read your past writings, I know we are on the same page. What I am trying to tell you is that the dynamics of the board has changed. In the end, you will believe what you wish to believe. There is another election this year and the members can make USPA whatever they want it to be.

I personally believe online voting is one tool to accomplish the best board we can possibly have. This proxy is your chance to make that possible. The members get what they want by their vote or in some cases what they don't want by not voting !!

What I am seeing as I travel is, better than 99% are in favor of this online voting proposal.

Note to JP: I am sure there is always more that could have been done, some of it is hindsight. Some of it is oversight. One thing I can tell you for sure is that USPA gets one heck of a deal, cost wise, from the work the members of the board do.....free.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: I speak for no one other than myself as a USPA member.


(This post was edited by EDYDO on Jul 1, 2010, 4:15 AM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 1, 2010, 12:03 PM
Post #54 of 140 (1504 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay Robin,

Having read your past writings, I know we are on the same page. What I am trying to tell you is that the dynamics of the board has changed. In the end, you will believe what you wish to believe. There is another election this year and the members can make USPA whatever they want it to be.

I personally believe online voting is one tool to accomplish the best board we can possibly have. This proxy is your chance to make that possible. The members get what they want by their vote or in some cases what they don't want by not voting !!

What I am seeing as I travel is, better than 99% are in favor of this online voting proposal.

Note to JP: I am sure there is always more that could have been done, some of it is hindsight. Some of it is oversight. One thing I can tell you for sure is that USPA gets one heck of a deal, cost wise, from the work the members of the board do.....free.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add: I speak for no one other than myself as a USPA member.

You're right, Ed; we are on the same page.

I too don't have a problem with online voting per se but as JP, Jerry and Paul have pointed out, there are issues with this proxy initiative, all of which are compounded by the presence of BJ and Bagley in the process, no matter how peripheral.

Moreover, I am especially leery of being told that this is so urgent that we need to do this proxy vote RIGHT NOW.

The current system can be improved, but it has worked reasonably well for a long time, soooo...

What exactly is the hurry?

Why exactly can this not be done according to the normal procedures of the association board?

Absent any compelling and persuasive answers to these questions, the proxy plan indeed needs to be cancelled, and the online voting system moved forward in a more legitimate way.

Cool

p.s. I concur also with your reminder of the work done by BOD members for free. Other than the two people I've singled out due to their previous conduct on this issue, I'm reasonably sure everyone is working for the best interests of the membership and the sport. It's just that whenever a governing body deviates from regular procedures because "urgent action" is needed due to some kind of "emergency." things generally get worse, regardless of motivation and/or intent.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 2, 2010, 3:52 AM
Post #55 of 140 (1471 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 2, 2010, 8:04 AM
Post #56 of 140 (1452 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.

Hmmm...

you're starting to convince me.

let me ponder for a while.

Cool


MakeItHappen

Jul 2, 2010, 3:21 PM
Post #57 of 140 (1427 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jan, I am certain I posted this before. The base price of the plan under consideration is $14,995 and we get unlimited elections for one year for whatever purpose needed. There are extras if we choose to purchase them such as entering paper ballots into the system. My thoughts are that this will cost less than $20 k per election. That is less than the price of a postage stamp per member per year to put it in perspective.

Ed, you and I agree on this. We both think that the cost is about 15-20K. However, Mr. DeSantis did call me the other day and said it was $35K. John is on the BOD, just like you, and has additional information that I don't have. If a BOD member says such-n-such costs so much, I'd believe that person. The motion passed at the winter mtg did have a dollar amount attached to it. but when it appeared in the minutes as
Quote:
Motion 28: Passed, 15/3/1 (Mr. Dixon)
Motion to allow the Executive Director to negotiate and purchase the E-Ballot system for the
purpose of allowing online voting in the 2010 General Election as soon as the required number of
proxies are received.
it did not have a dollar amount attached to it. Why is that?
The way that motion reads gives the ED a blank check to spend whatever on an online balloting system.
I do not think that was the intention of the BOD.

So Ed, could you double check with HQ on what the costs are?
And just so we are on the same sheet of paper, you are talking about giving the entire membership roster to the vendor and getting charged per member as opposed to just getting charged for members that optin for online voting, that could be around 2000 members.

In reply to:
Many of the things you state as fact and complain about haven't even been settled yet. We are seeking the best solutions. That is the reason I ask for constructive information.

The security issues need to be addressed beforehand and made failsafe.
I mentioned this way back in 2008.
USPA is not addressing the security issues.
USPA is not doing a test case first.

In reply to:
I recall something I saw hanging in a business. "Arguing with some people is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you are going to realize it is what the pig enjoys." So, I am going to let you continue with all of your "facts", undisturbed.

Ed, proper decorum is expected in meetings, but here on DZ.com no one has to follow that rule.
When you choose to insult members that express views different from your own, you show your true colors.

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Jul 2, 2010, 8:50 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 3, 2010, 4:39 AM
Post #58 of 140 (1396 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ed, proper decorum is expected in meetings, but here on DZ.com no one has to follow that rule.
When you choose to insult members that express views different from your own, you show your true colors.

Hey Jan,

I said I wasn't going to reply to your posts anymore because you so distort and misuse things I have said, but I need to respond to this.

I am not sure what you took from my post, but it was intended as a humorous way of saying that you just enjoy arguing.

Concerning the lesson in decorum, I believe I will decline that lesson based on the record and qualifications of the instructor. I recall February 2009, USPA Board meeting room, Reno Nevada. One Jan Meyer loudly saying, "Well F#*K YOU."

I am aware that sometimes things said in writing can appear to be given in a tone quite different from what is intended, so let me leave no doubt. I think this is funny and I am smiling and laughing at the irony.

Can we get back to the subject at hand. USPA needs more proxies, so please get them in. We are now down to the final days and every proxy counts. The link is below. You can scan, fax or send a camera photo to USPA. It will only take two minutes !!

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for no one other than myself.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 7, 2010, 2:16 PM
Post #59 of 140 (1229 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not mean to stir any pot, but it seems I have. I also have respect for Jan Mayer's helping tutor me into my first 100-way at Perris as a tutor/interpretor, and I also have respect for B.J. Worth for his positive accomplishments including the World Team and related matters, since I want to make it into future similar events)

I can't help to observe that the disagreement seems to be over details such as security issues, unexpected costs, the 2008 experience, etc. Even though most of the concerned people appear to be agreeing that if such issues were resolved, that online voting is a great idea. (feel free to clarify if I am wrong with my observations...)

It would appear that it could be be useful if some further details could be revealed. It sounds like an off-the-shelf voting solution is already chosen (the $14,995 base quote), would it be possible to disclose which of the systems it is, or at least be able to list its known security features? It sounds like more homework, at least, was done, than 2008. It sounds like an external already-developed solution because a base price is quoted (when excluding the add-on prices such as having to manually enter paper ballots). Does anyone know which online voting engine is being suggested so that people can check its credentials -- i.e. is it a well trusted system with a proven track record? Others appears to be bringing up 'concerns', so is there something that people don't know?


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 7, 2010, 2:24 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 7, 2010, 5:12 PM
Post #60 of 140 (1206 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

These questions have been posed, and no one is coming forth with answers. It's been my chief complaint with the BOD. Communications.

HQ is great with it, BOD not so much, save a handful of individuals. Thanks Ed, :-)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Jul 7, 2010, 6:35 PM
Post #61 of 140 (1206 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

I am curious to know what the count to date is. I have read this entire thread and have a fair grasp of the issues, but it might be a waste of time, effort, and money if the proxy should fail.


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 8, 2010, 5:37 AM
Post #62 of 140 (1180 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Uhhhhh, actually most if not all of these questions have been answered. Look at Jan's post #57, she gives the name of the system that is proposed. It is also in the Winter Meeting Minutes as Motion #28.

Security information was addressed, but it disappeared with the first thread on this subject. You will not find a more secure system. Still, security complaints seem pretty lame to me when no one is crying about how terrible the security is in what we presently are doing.

These guys do thousands of elections a year and have been doing it for many years with some high profile organizations. They are professionals and I trust them to get it right based on their past record. If we don't like it for any reason, it can be a one time deal or we can find a system that we like better.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Edited to add some information on security.

We have almost 1,300 customers including USA Traithlon, American Football Coaches Association, USA Taekwondo, Seattle Soccer, LLC, Ladies Professional Golf Association, National Reining Horse Association. We also work with five of the top 50 global law firms for partner voting, American Hospital Association, Tennessee Medical Association, Canadian Bar Association, Philadelphia Bar Association, plus a handful of Hollywood award shows. Probably the law firms and the Hollywood award shows have put us through the strictest security assessments and we have won them as longterm customers. Our SAS 70 certification means that we meet the approval of Ernst & Young, Price Waterhouse, and other leading accounting firms.


(This post was edited by EDYDO on Jul 8, 2010, 5:43 AM)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 9, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #63 of 140 (1024 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Uhhhhh, actually most if not all of these questions have been answered. Look at Jan's post #57, she gives the name of the system that is proposed. It is also in the Winter Meeting Minutes as Motion #28.
I googled a few keywords from Jan's post #57, because it looked generic and did not seem to mention any brand names or company names. I realized that when Jan said "E-Ballot", she meant the commercial online voting system called eBallot, rather than generically as an electronic ballot. My bad.

Now I clearly know that the website of the off-the-shelf online voting system that USPA is proposing to use, is the following:
http://eballot.votenet.com/

Lest I inadvertently blow up another powderkeg, I have no comment about current level of security of current USPA voting processes, and comparision to this, but I am glad to know that a specific 'solution' has already been researched and chosen. And that it is one of the more well-known solutions used by many reputable companies, assocations and organizations. It would be one of the online voting products I would trust. Thanks for the clarification.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 9, 2010, 5:56 PM)


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 9, 2010, 6:22 PM
Post #64 of 140 (1007 views)
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In reply to:
I am glad to know that a specific 'solution' has already been researched and chosen. And that it is one of the more well-known solutions used by many reputable companies, assocations and organizations. It would be one of the online voting products I would trust. Thanks for the clarification.

Final request to everyone:

We are now down to the final few days. The proxies are being counted and validated. If you are so inclined as to support the improvement of USPA, please take the two minutes required and send in your proxy. Click the link below, print it out, sign and return to USPA via fax, or email. You can use that fancy new camera phone to do it if you choose, but please do it now.

Blue Skies,

Ed


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Jul 12, 2010, 4:53 PM
Post #65 of 140 (909 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Ed,

Do you know if we are close? The last I heard was on USPA News we needed 1100 or so.

Thank You,
Rich


EDYDO  (D 1521)

Jul 13, 2010, 3:08 AM
Post #66 of 140 (862 views)
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In reply to:
Hello Ed,

Do you know if we are close? The last I heard was on USPA News we needed 1100 or so.

Thank You,
Rich


I understand we are VERY close with a few days remaining.

Ed


jsreznor  (C 38889)

Jul 13, 2010, 5:47 AM
Post #67 of 140 (849 views)
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Re: [EDYDO] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

De-sticky-ified???


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 12:28 PM
Post #68 of 140 (810 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Robin,

Good questions, fair questions and I will do my best to explain.

Paragraph 1: There is no urgency to have online voting. If the members want it, there are fringe benefits, such as having an independent third party counting ballots. Are you aware that one of the parties you so distrust was IN CHARGE of counting the ballots for years??? Man, I would like to fix that possibility and this proxy will do it. (That person does not presently count ballots.) I just think there is the appearance of possible wrong doing, not that anything actually has been done that was improper. We should avoid that appearance.

Paragraph 2: The urgency only stems from the fact that we are getting down to the wire and there is a time limit on the proxy vote, July 17, I believe. If you look at what has been done, online voting has not been rushed at all. The process began when John Goswitz was Chair of N&E back in '05 I believe. It has continued until this day with discussions, tests and research.

Paragraph 3: Has the present voting system worked well? My policy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Many would argue that it is broken and I am one of those. The last election brought less than 10% vote from the members. Actually I think it was 7%. Then we have complaints from you and others that board members are being less than honest in their duties. Man, in my opinion, that's broken.

Paragraph 5: There has been a lot written about procedures. I believe this proxy is the procedure called for under the circumstances. The board wants to make some changes in the By-Laws that require original signatures on ballots and election by mail. The By-Laws prohibit the board from making changes that relate to their own election. That can only be done by a quorum of the members. So, to the best of my knowledge, this is the proper and legitimate procedure spelled out for us by our founders.

Blue Skies,

Ed

Disclaimer: I speak for myself as a member of USPA and for no other person or entity.

Hmmm...

you're starting to convince me.

let me ponder for a while.

Cool


I've pondered, and I'm still totally against it.

There is too much uncertainty, and way - way - too much blank checkitis with this proposition; none of the Ts have been crossed or Is dotted.

It remains a mess, and its genesis comes from BJ Worth who started sniveling about voter fraud EXACTLY when his BOD vote totals started dropping from being at the top of the pack to being in the middle.

Mr. Worth further knows that that he can coerce online votes from his World Team flyers and (especially) the World Team wannabes, since this group is all computered up and availabel to vote for BJ if they want to have a chance to be on the $10,000 load.

Thus the fraud is not in the voting system as it exists but in the reasons for changing it, all spearheaded originally by BJ Worth in a desperate effort to remain on the board, and continued by him to this day with his coercive email to his World Team mailing list.

<paragraph deleted: dilatory>

Want MORE evidence of fraud, double-dealing and duplicity? Look at PARACHUTIST.

During the last few months, there has been a proxy thing in every or almost every issue - yet for the actual elections, going back years, the magazine posts the election bios and ballots in the November issue, then in the December issue DOES NOT REMIND people to vote.

Seems to me that before we do all this rigamarole with proxy votes and the undefined costs of online elections (est at the moment to be $35K per election compared to $2k - $4k for the current system), maybe USPA ought to just spend $0 to remind members in the Sept/October and December issues to vote.

That really is the big question here: If BJ and the Board members pushing this proxy are so "concerned" about low voter turnout, then why do they not do the simplest thing that costs ZERO money -- you know, REMIND people of the election and encourage them to vote?

Bottom line: This is bad juju that will cost the organization tens of thousands of dollars per election more than the current system -- tens of thousands of dollars that could instead be spent helping to gain, maintain and secure access for jumpers and protection against goofball legislators and freaked-out mothers of the dead.

Remember folks, this is the USPA, not the BJPA.

Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on Jul 13, 2010, 1:37 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 1:14 PM
Post #69 of 140 (789 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

>Personally, I think every proxy from a World Team member or wannabe
>should be disallowed because of the coercion represented by having the
>Chairman of the USPA board -- and the guy who will decide whether they
>can be on the $10,000 load -- "suggesting" that they vote for this
>half-baked proxy about an unnecessary change.

And don't forget to exclude people who want to make money from the sport. They certainly have a vested interest in lowering test standards. And of course current DZO's, instructors and video people - these are the people who actually make lots of money off the backs of other skydivers, and who might vote to give themselves more money by increasing currency requirements or something. Finally, we absolutely must exclude competitors. It goes without saying that they cannot be trusted to vote on anything that has to do with competition without putting their interests first.

That would leave the real skydivers - the people with a few dozen jumps who jump every once in a while, but don't follow competition, instruction, airport access or safety issues.

To be serious, the whole reason that USPA exists is to promote a special interest - skydiving. That includes BJ's World Team attempts, the Arizona Challenge that happens at Larry's DZ, Mike Mullin's high altitude King Air jumps, people who want to pass Jay Stoke's rating courses, and people who want to work with Scott Smth on stunts. Excluding people like that excludes the very people that USPA exists to serve.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 1:36 PM
Post #70 of 140 (781 views)
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In reply to:
>Personally, I think every proxy from a World Team member or wannabe
>should be disallowed because of the coercion represented by having the
>Chairman of the USPA board -- and the guy who will decide whether they
>can be on the $10,000 load -- "suggesting" that they vote for this
>half-baked proxy about an unnecessary change.

And don't forget to exclude people who want to make money from the sport. They certainly have a vested interest in lowering test standards. And of course current DZO's, instructors and video people - these are the people who actually make lots of money off the backs of other skydivers, and who might vote to give themselves more money by increasing currency requirements or something. Finally, we absolutely must exclude competitors. It goes without saying that they cannot be trusted to vote on anything that has to do with competition without putting their interests first.

That would leave the real skydivers - the people with a few dozen jumps who jump every once in a while, but don't follow competition, instruction, airport access or safety issues.

To be serious, the whole reason that USPA exists is to promote a special interest - skydiving. That includes BJ's World Team attempts, the Arizona Challenge that happens at Larry's DZ, Mike Mullin's high altitude King Air jumps, people who want to pass Jay Stoke's rating courses, and people who want to work with Scott Smth on stunts. Excluding people like that excludes the very people that USPA exists to serve.

You're right, BIll. Good catch.

I've deleted that part.

What do you think about the rest of it?

Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2010, 1:40 PM
Post #71 of 140 (781 views)
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>What do you think about the rest of it?

I think a reminder to vote in the magazine would go a long way towards making people think about voting - and an online voting system would help make it easier to do so. Both are good solutions to the problem of voter apathy within USPA, IMO.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #72 of 140 (773 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

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>What do you think about the rest of it?

I think a reminder to vote in the magazine would go a long way towards making people think about voting - and an online voting system would help make it easier to do so. Both are good solutions to the problem of voter apathy within USPA, IMO.

the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant cost compared to the paper ballots.

You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jul 13, 2010, 2:05 PM
Post #73 of 140 (762 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

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the only problem with the online voting "solution" its its exorbitant cost compared to the paper ballots.

The proxy form I signed did not bind the organization to any one solution. Signing the proxy gives the USPA authority to negotiate a system. I imagine whatever vendor they choose will get cheaper over time, or the organization will switch vendors.

Plus, If online voting brings in more voters, it's worth paying extra for.

_Am


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jul 13, 2010, 2:25 PM
Post #74 of 140 (751 views)
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Re: [robinheid] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool

The convenience of online voting far outweighs the costs. Maybe your time isn't valuable to you, but mine is very valuable to me. You think a $5 savings is going to make a difference? You gotta be kidding. Unimpressed


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 13, 2010, 3:01 PM
Post #75 of 140 (740 views)
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Re: [Inspired] USPA Members: Please vote for online voting (USPA link) -- online voting plan may be cancelled [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You want to get more people to VOTE? Take the tens of thousands forecast to be spent ON EACH ELECTION - and use a portion of it to reduce by $5 the next year's membership fee of every USPA member who votes in the election.

If you got an extra 2000 people to vote, you would basically double the vote total for $10k extra -- far less than "The $35,000 Solution" -- and far - far -- more likely to get more votes than going online.

Cool

The convenience of online voting far outweighs the costs. Maybe your time isn't valuable to you, but mine is very valuable to me. You think a $5 savings is going to make a difference? You gotta be kidding. Unimpressed

Dude,

you're an IT CONSULTANT -- of course online voting's easier for you.

Not everyone is a computer god or even turns theirs on every day.

This is another problem with the whole notion, and particularly in terms of the debate here, as a significant percentage of the USPA population does NOT lurk the dork zone, much less post to it:

Computer geeks think THEIR WAY is THE ONLY WAY.

And... it's NOT.

Just in the last two days, one of the hallowed articles of faith of the computer geek crowd -- that broadband access for poor kids will increase their test scores and educational success -- was smashed to smithereens when a study determined that the grades of poor kids go DOWN when exposed to broadband. Multiple reasons for this, of course, but the bottom line is: online ANYTHING is not a panacea for anything... and this is one case.

This whole debate started because BJ Worth was afraid he wouldn't be elected again as his vote total was dropping every election -- and he commands a big online army of regular and wannabe World Team members, so he screamed and whined and sniveled about "voter fraud" until he got the geeks in a tizzy to switch to online voting which, of course, would benefit him, but which has multiple unknown consequences for the organization and the overall integrity of the voting, the principal element being the actual number of participants.

Not to mention their quality and level of participation in the sport. There are a whole bunch of USPA members who seldom or never go to the DZ or otherwise keep up with what's going on in the sport.

Online voting means more keyboard terminators and less actual jumpers voting -- especially when you consider the number of paper ballots photocopied and handed out AT THE DZ during jump weekends by motivated candidates and THEIR minions.

And pulllleeeeze --- your "time" is "valuable"?

Right. It takes you the same amount of time to fill out the ballot online as it does to fill in the blanks on the paper -- and then it takes about the same amount of time to seal the envelope and stamp it and then drop it in your mailbox or the company mailbox and send it on its way as it does to fill out the online forms and stuff (which is ANOTHER dangling thread about which there is no discussion, no proposed form, or anything else).

This whole thing is illegitimate from the get go, so please don't try to justify it with bogus comments about your "valuable time."

Come on, tell me with a straight face that spending an order of magnitude more money to save YOU 30 seconds of your "valuable time" is worth diverting tens of thousands of membership dollars that could be better used gaining and maintaining access for jumping.

Propose a half-baked idea like that at your IT job and you'll be filing for unemployment in a week.

Cool


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Forums : Archive : 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections

 


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