Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath

 

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Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 25, 2010, 7:25 PM
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Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath Can't Post

Sub 500-jump jumper under small higher performance canopy since approx 100 jumps. Impacted an obstacle mid-swoop.

No gore or impact photos here, just a few shots of what all his friends got to see and do while he was laying there, waiting for the adrenaline to wear off and the pain to kick in.

Don't be that guy. If people are telling you that you may be going too small or aggressive on your canopy or too big on your approaches, they just might know what they are talking about. Don't make your friends be the ones holding C-spine traction and cutting your main lift web and carrying you to the helicopter, wondering if you're going to make it or not, when if you'd listened to them you be walking back to the packing area instead.

Yeah, I know this is an exercise in futility, but I really enjoy beating my head against brick walls.
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Blink  (C 3275)

Jun 25, 2010, 7:47 PM
Post #2 of 125 (8415 views)
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Post deleted by Blink [In reply to]

 


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 25, 2010, 8:33 PM
Post #3 of 125 (8405 views)
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Re: [Blink] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you know the specifics of his gear?

Yes, but I'm not going to share it. That has nothing to do with this thread.


(This post was edited by skybytch on Jun 25, 2010, 9:08 PM)


Bolas  (D License)

Jun 25, 2010, 9:04 PM
Post #4 of 125 (8384 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

The picture of the spool he hit should be here too.

http://www.dropzone.com/...t;postatt_id=123043;

Additionally jump operations are usually suspended until after medflight and/or the ambulance leaves. Don't be selfish and cut in on others jumping time like this. Tongue


Sangi

Jun 25, 2010, 9:57 PM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Boring photos that ain't gonna change anything..

If you want people to stop and think for a second you have to post the carnage... impact, person after impact photos...


strop45  (D 957)

Jun 25, 2010, 10:31 PM
Post #6 of 125 (8302 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Do you know the specifics of his gear?

Yes, but I'm not going to share it. That has nothing to do with this thread.

Why not? It seems to me that it has everything to do with this thread?
On the one hand you say:"Sub 500-jump jumper under small higher performance canopy since approx 100 jumps. "

and on the other hand you say "That has nothing to do with this thread"

It would be useful to know what you regard as "smaller/higher performance" Some would say a safire II at WL 1.2 meets your criteria, for others its a crossfire at WL 1.6??

More information would be useful.


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 25, 2010, 10:34 PM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Not really sure what some pics of a heli and a crowd are supposed to prove.

I appreciate your intent, but I don't think this is going to change anyone's mind.

I have seen far worse things at the DZ in my short time in the sport and I still jump. Only today I saw a guy with over 6,000 jumps taken out of action by a hard opening on a tandem. Shit happens.

What was the gear? What injuries were received? Was the gear really at fault (as your post seems to imply)?


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jun 25, 2010, 10:37 PM)


Martini  (D 23756)

Jun 25, 2010, 11:08 PM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean he has 400 jumps on this canopy? What is "small"? What is" higher performance" You obviously have information that you think is unimportant, others might feel differently. Why withhold information? You imply lack of experience is a factor ("Sub 500-jumper under small higher performance canopy") but don't let the reader understand the facts. Later you suggest that the gear had nothing to do with the incident, that isn't consistent with your conclusion that the jumper was using inappropriate gear. What's up with that? Let the reader draw conclusions, your opinion isn't as important as the facts.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 3:08 AM
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Re: [Sangi] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Boring photos that ain't gonna change anything..

If you want people to stop and think for a second you have to post the carnage... impact, person after impact photos...

Why, it wouldn't work for you because you think you're special with some sort of magical gift. You're the exact kind of person that Lisa is trying to reach.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 4:00 AM
Post #10 of 125 (8187 views)
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Re: [strop45] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It would be useful to know what you regard as "smaller/higher performance"

Okay then. Over 1.5 on an elliptical non-crossbraced canopy.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 4:25 AM
Post #11 of 125 (8174 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Was the gear really at fault

"At fault"? No. The gear operated exactly as it was designed to and did exactly what the pilot asked it to.

The choice of that gear at a low experience level was the first link in the chain of events that led to this helicopter ride.


bfilarsky  (C 37619)

Jun 26, 2010, 6:56 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Any word on his condition?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 8:23 AM
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Re: [bfilarsky] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Any word on his condition?

"Just" a femur and some ligament damage and a broken nose. It's gonna hurt but he'll recover well; he's in excellent physical condition.


bfilarsky  (C 37619)

Jun 26, 2010, 8:27 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya he sure is. Glad to hear he'll recover well.


BMFin

Jun 26, 2010, 8:51 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people are willing to take more risk than others. Theres nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Everyone is free to take as much risk as they please.

For example Travis Pastrana has broken over 60 bones in his career ? He has had 4 tibia fractures, dislocated spine, broken back, broken collarbones, broken wrist, broken ankles, broken shoulders etc..

Would you say that what hes doing is wrong ? Who are you to say that ? Why is the attitude towards injury so twisted in skydiving?


DocPop  (C License)

Jun 26, 2010, 8:52 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

1.5 WL at 500 jumps doesn't seem all that excessive to me (not that I am professing to be an expert in any way). I have heard numerous people say 0.1 increase in WL per 100 jumps is a reasonable way to go, so starting from 1.0 as a student this puts him right where he should be.

I guess I just don't see how being under this canopy made him fly into an obstacle in an otherwise clear area. What makes you think that he would have not hit the spool under a more conservative wing?

Please don't take this as me being antagonistic - they are genuine thoughts/questions but I know it can sound like smart-ass comments on t'internet.


in2jumping  (C License)

Jun 26, 2010, 9:57 AM
Post #17 of 125 (8037 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1.5 WL at 500 jumps doesn't seem all that excessive to me (not that I am professing to be an expert in any way). I have heard numerous people say 0.1 increase in WL per 100 jumps is a reasonable way to go, so starting from 1.0 as a student this puts him right where he should be.

This is the problem with the sport these days. Everyone is in a big hurry to jump smaller and faster canopies, which results in sky full of people flying by the seat of their pants.

In reply to:
I guess I just don't see how being under this canopy made him fly into an obstacle in an otherwise clear area. What makes you think that he would have not hit the spool under a more conservative wing?

1) Obviously he did not have enough control of his canopy to avoid the object. Thank god he did not take someone out with him and that it was an object not someone standing there or another canopy landing.
2) A more conservative wing would have given him more reaction time to avoid the object.
3) A more conservative wing would have lessened his speed and impact into the object.

So I can see how this persons canopy choice contributed to him flying into the obstacle.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 26, 2010, 10:45 AM
Post #18 of 125 (8021 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this really the way how we should teach the less experienced ones?

Show a good and positive example and teach how things can be done on the safe manner.

Flying into a solid object would hurt anyway.

In reply to:
Impacted an obstacle mid-swoop.
How come? Is a landing area suppose to be free from obstacles?

I did start to fly a canopy like that about WL 1.6 with 300 jumps.
Its more important to learn when to take it easy and slow than push it harder.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 10:57 AM
Post #19 of 125 (8017 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1.5 WL at 500 jumps doesn't seem all that excessive to me

It was at ~100 jumps when he bought it. And I'm not 100% sure on the jump numbers, he could have quite a few less than 500.

In reply to:
What makes you think that he would have not hit the spool under a more conservative wing?

Learning how to fly a more conservative canopy well before progressing to more aggressive wings pays dividends in the future. There are lots of skills that can be learned under less aggressive canopies that transfer directly to learning to swoop - like accuracy (both on the ground and when hitting checkpoints in the pattern), the ability to roll out of a turn on the exact path you want and the ability to recognize a potential collision and react properly to avoid it in time.

It's entirely possible that if he'd been flying a less aggressive canopy from the start and downsized only after mastering it, he could have pulled this landing off under the canopy he has now.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jun 26, 2010, 11:04 AM
Post #20 of 125 (8013 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is a landing area suppose to be free from obstacles?

The landing area is free of obstacles. The spools mark the edge, keep spectators and vehicles out and hold wind indicators.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jun 26, 2010, 11:13 AM
Post #21 of 125 (8007 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is a landing area suppose to be free from obstacles?

The landing area is free of obstacles. The spools mark the edge, keep spectators and vehicles out and hold wind indicators.
Well, swooping is not too wise without a decent accuracy.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jun 26, 2010, 11:48 AM
Post #22 of 125 (7989 views)
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Re: [Bolas] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like he knocked the shit out of that spool. Those are HARD to break.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 26, 2010, 12:58 PM
Post #23 of 125 (7953 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some people are willing to take more risk than others. Theres nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

Except many people jumping canopies beyond their current abilities are unguided meat missiles in the pattern and landing area who risk running into other skydivers in the air and on the ground. I don't like getting hit by people in over their heads.


Flyfast  (D 31665)

Jun 26, 2010, 9:38 PM
Post #24 of 125 (7822 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

The extent of Pastrana's long list of injuries were due to motocross and FMX, solo sports done on closed courses. When he's throwing backflips and 360's on his Suzuki he's not putting anyone in danger but himself.

I dont know if this guy did a hop and pop or not, it's not clear by the OP, but people that lack the skill for HP wings that fly them with other people in the air, well then it's the equlivent of Travis hurling his bike off a kicker ramp into the crowd and hoping it doesn't hit anyone.

It's not an attitude toward injury, it's an attitude toward reckless people that can make a day at the DZ a painful/deadly one.


Ron

Jun 27, 2010, 7:46 AM
Post #25 of 125 (7725 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Swoop Gone Wrong - The Aftermath [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is this really the way how we should teach the less experienced ones?

Show a good and positive example and teach how things can be done on the safe manner.

Most will not listen. Hence the old "blood on the street" method. People like to think they are better than average. Just read "Stiletto as a student canopy" to see one guy try to claim he knows better than everyone else.

Quote:
How come? Is a landing area suppose to be free from obstacles?

It is... He didn't land in the clear area.

Quote:
Its more important to learn when to take it easy and slow than push it harder.

The problem is that a HP canopy's idea of "slow" is still fast.


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