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Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason?

 

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Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jun 14, 2010, 12:32 PM
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Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? Can't Post

This post in a recent incident thread got me to thinking about groundings for safety violations.

I've only been in the sport for just under 6 years, but I can't recall seeing or hearing of too many groundings for safety violations at any of the DZs I've frequented. Often there's hand-wringing about the new "DGIT," and eye rolls about people who do stupid shit. At a lot of DZs, there's a proactive safety culture where if people do something stupid (particularly if it puts others at risk), the regular jumpers, the S&TA, and/or the DZO will have a serious chat with the offending person, but action always seems to stop short of restricting the person's ability to make a skydive.

When it comes to actually sitting someone down and saying "sorry, you can't jump here for a month" or "you're not welcome here with that canopy," I just don't see many DZs where the management is willing to take that kind of a stand. It seems like there's an attitude of "I've done all I can and if I ground him he's just going to go to [nearby DZ]."

So what HAVE you seen people grounded for (especially recently)? More importantly, did it actually change behavior, or did the person have to learn the lesson the hard way by breaking themselves (or others)? What about big events? There's a lot of talk about how poor tracking or breaking the landing rules will get you grounded, but how often are those rules enforced?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 14, 2010, 12:41 PM
Post #2 of 81 (2597 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw 3 out of a 4 way grounded for one month cypress fires/low opening on one jump. I was the 4th and I opened at 2500 (just sat in the saddle watched them continue in a sit campfire from 4500 down to whatever altitude they finally got to)

we had a DGIT keep doing stuff for a season and he was grounded for the next season

that's two


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jun 14, 2010, 12:56 PM
Post #3 of 81 (2570 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

As you know, I don't take any non safe crap from anyone at the "Boogie in Belize" and strive for the utmost in safe jumping all around. It's a difficult line to walk, but I don't want to see the DGIT kill me, nor any of my friends. I have grounded and sent home certain participants. It was for flying violations in the pattern.
DZ's used to have the "ban board", "Bad boy board", "Grounded list" etc by manifest. It had a person's name on it and what they were grounded for. Somewhere along the road we got all "touchy/feely" in the skydive world and became soft on safety. No one wanted to make anyone feel bad.Unsure
At Eloy we used to banish jumpers to land in the student area, which is now known by some of us as "The Jean Guy LZ". Jean Guy was a great friend and my former room mate in Eloy. He was a friend to all and a wonderful human being. We CONSTANTLY told him to slow down. I begged him, Dan BC begged him, etc. He nearly took out a jumper on Ron Green's memorial jump and BC sent him to the student area from then on.
Jean Guy hooked in at Drumheller during a boogie and died from his landing injuries. It was very painful for all of us that loved him, but not surprising at all. So sad, so young, so full of life.
Sometimes we just can't impress upon jumpers what can actually happen to them. Even jumpers that witness tragedy think it could never happen to them. Even when world champions beg them to slow down.CrazyUnsure
USPA has banned jumpers in the past for unsafe actions, I'm not sure when the last time that has ever happend.
We can write LOTS of stuff here on DZ.Com, we can tell everyone about our friends that have died or had life changing injuries, but it just doesn't seem to matter.
It pains me to watch, but I don't participate in the big ways any longer. 22 other canopies in the air with me is almost too many.
And it's not just the newbies that do stupid crap. Most of the headaches I have at the boogie are 1,000+ jump wonders.Tongue
I'll see you in a month. We'll have further discussion over a cold one.Cool


jtnesbitt  (B 30189)

Jun 14, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #4 of 81 (2557 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen numerous groundings for low pulls, as well as a few for erratic canopy piloting, and a few for major safety violations. With the exception of the lowpulls, everyone was warned before they were actually grounded, in other words they had a "freebie" before the actual grounding. (Billvon style Tongue )

Did the grounding work? Eh, who knows. I know two of the lowpulls quit skydiving, 1 went to another DZ. As for the erratic CPing 1 learned from it, others went to other DZs. The groundings for safety violations seemed to learn their lesson.

(Note: These incidents were witnessed at several different DZs.)


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jun 14, 2010, 1:46 PM
Post #5 of 81 (2518 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At Eloy we used to banish jumpers to land in the student area

As a student, I have to question the wisdom of banishing unsafe jumpers to the student area.

We have enough to worry about with each other. Unsure


dreaming13000  (B 35508)

Jun 14, 2010, 1:51 PM
Post #6 of 81 (2508 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw someone "grounded" (and removed from a staff position) due to improper conduct on exit from the jump plane (he repeatedly climbed on the top? and broke something) um, only other one I can think of is a DGIT who got enough complaints about his unsafe behavior reported to dz management and he was "grounded" and you know, I never saw him again.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jun 14, 2010, 1:53 PM
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Re: [Inspired] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

Students get out last (Usually), and pull higher (usually), and are on bigger, slower parachutes (usually), so land much later than the hot rod (usually).


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

Jun 14, 2010, 2:00 PM
Post #8 of 81 (2487 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

An old friend of mine whom I will not name got grounded at a big DZ for consistently pulling low.


airathanas  (D 29277)

Jun 14, 2010, 2:01 PM
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Re: [grimmie] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't see the incident, but I was at the DZ when it happened. On light and variable wind day, a camera guy with 300 jumps swooped his Sabre 2 150 into the landing area perpendicular to the final landing approach as another fun jumper. He clipped the other jumper's canopy just as he was landing. No one was hurt. He was told to go home for the remainder of the day. This camera guy has been told repeatedly to stop doing such radical front riser maneuvers, but he does them anyway. I don't know any other information about the incident.


Inspired  (B 35971)

Jun 14, 2010, 2:03 PM
Post #10 of 81 (2481 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Students get out last (Usually), and pull higher (usually), and are on bigger, slower parachutes (usually), so land much later than the hot rod (usually).

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 14, 2010, 3:02 PM
Post #11 of 81 (2436 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I grounded someone in San Diego (two people actually) for consistent botched toggle swoops. They tried to go to Perris where the grounding was enforced as well.

Then we all went to Eloy one spring. They showed up as well and happily informed me "you can't ground me HERE!"

The two guys then proceeded to break their thumbs and pelvises respectively. Last I heard the second guy would never walk normally again.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:05 PM
Post #12 of 81 (2435 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep. At my home DZ, an AAD fire buys 30 days on the ground. Unfortunately, it has been necessary to apply that rule this year.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:10 PM
Post #13 of 81 (2427 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep. At my home DZ, an AAD fire buys 30 days on the ground. Unfortunately, it has been necessary to apply that rule this year.

I'm curious about this one - I've heard Perris enforces that as well. Does your DZ say that *any* AAD fire means you're grounded or only one that was due to a loss of altitude awareness? A legit save, to me, might or might not be a legitimate reason for grounding, depending on how/why the jumper became incapacitated.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #14 of 81 (2426 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, never. I've even seen DZ's with allegedly strict Cypres-fire grounding allow that person to jump for the rest of the event.

And to a point, I agree - groundings make little sense. It usually just means that jumper will head to the other DZ down the road, where your grounding is unlikely to be enforced. The worst case is that once they get to that other DZ, they stay there - and you've just lost a customer to the competition.

There are other ways to tell someone they're doing wrong.

_Am


skydiverkeith

Jun 14, 2010, 3:16 PM
Post #15 of 81 (2420 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

First, will someone please enlighten me as to what a "DGIT" is?

As for groundings, I saw an entire 4 way ff group get grounded for a month after having 4 CYPRES fires (all 4 jumpers on the same jump!) because of lack of altitude awareness


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:28 PM
Post #16 of 81 (2405 views)
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

deadguyintraining


wildcard451  (D License)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:46 PM
Post #17 of 81 (2389 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Yep. At my home DZ, an AAD fire buys 30 days on the ground. Unfortunately, it has been necessary to apply that rule this year.

I'm curious about this one - I've heard Perris enforces that as well. Does your DZ say that *any* AAD fire means you're grounded or only one that was due to a loss of altitude awareness? A legit save, to me, might or might not be a legitimate reason for grounding, depending on how/why the jumper became incapacitated.

The only legit reason for a cypres fire is if you are dead or unconscious. In that case, a grounding is the least of your worries.

/maybe a student all out of fuck saved after getting away from the instructor, but that is a whole 'nother bag of worms.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jun 14, 2010, 3:57 PM
Post #18 of 81 (2377 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The only legit reason for a cypres fire is if you are dead or unconscious. In that case, a grounding is the least of your worries.

/maybe a student all out of fuck saved after getting away from the instructor, but that is a whole 'nother bag of worms.

Agreed those are the only legit reasons (well, you might also be conscious but physically incapacitated in such a way that you can't get to any handle).

I was thinking of varying causes of unconsciousness/incapacitation. Both shoulders dislocate on exit ... maybe no grounding (at least not for safety, though you might end up being grounded defacto anyway). Jump up and hit the tail on exit and get knocked out .... grounded. Knocked out because an exit funnels and shit happens ... no grounding. Knocked out because you decided to "see how fast you could go" and you take out the formation ... grounding.


yoink

Jun 14, 2010, 3:57 PM
Post #19 of 81 (2376 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen someone 'pass' AFF abroad, and be completely unstable throughout their next several check-out freefalls - absolutely unable to control stability or heading at any time in freefall or deployment.

The guy got a red line though all of his training jumps in his logbook for the CCI, and instructed that he wouldn't be able to jump at any UK dropzone without a complete retrain from level 1. I believe this was then passed on via phone to various CCIs.

If memory serves, the guys was checked out over a course of a number of jumps with AFF instructors and questioned on the ground until it became clear that he was a huge danger to himself in his current condition.


spootch  (C License)

Jun 14, 2010, 5:49 PM
Post #20 of 81 (2326 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

There are other ways to tell someone they're doing wrong.

I agree, 30 days for an aad fire? WTF? You don't need 30 days of standing around becoming less current, you need more training


SivaGanesha  (A 65419)

Jun 14, 2010, 6:08 PM
Post #21 of 81 (2303 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep. At my home DZ, an AAD fire buys 30 days on the ground. Unfortunately, it has been necessary to apply that rule this year.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if a licensed skydiver doesn't have an AAD but pulls so low that the AAD would have fired if they had one--and nevertheless walks away from the skydive uninjured? Would they be grounded?


(This post was edited by SivaGanesha on Jun 14, 2010, 6:09 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jun 14, 2010, 6:09 PM
Post #22 of 81 (2299 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

Come jump at Skydive Utah and do something really stupid, twice.
I've seen a couple groundings for attitude and action, and was grounded for a weekend once myself for dumping way too low on a photo jump (not tandem).


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 14, 2010, 6:10 PM
Post #23 of 81 (2296 views)
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Re: [spootch] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

>You don't need 30 days of standing around becoming less current, you need more training

Training alone doesn't work for some people. They don't understand anything other than not being able to jump due to their own stupidity. Sad but true.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 14, 2010, 7:02 PM
Post #24 of 81 (2267 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

we had a DGIT keep doing stuff for a season and he was grounded for the next season

that's two

Bill, if were thinking of the same guy (I won't use DGIT for purely superstitious reasons) he was also grounded at several surrounding DZ's when the other DZOs heard the story. Smile


SivaGanesha  (A 65419)

Jun 14, 2010, 7:04 PM
Post #25 of 81 (2264 views)
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Re: [yoink] Grounding for safety issues - have you ever seen one and what was the reason? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The guy got a red line though all of his training jumps in his logbook for the CCI...

I'm kind of curious what the CCI's authority was for doing this. Presumably the logbook is the property of the student, and was signed by instructors who witnessed the jumps, and the CCI did not witness those jumps. Where is the basis for the CCI, who wasn't on the jumps, overruling those who were on the jumps?

Redlining the jumps like that makes it sound like the CCI believed there was outright fraud--that he/she believes the jumps in question never happened.


(This post was edited by SivaGanesha on Jun 14, 2010, 7:05 PM)


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