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Am I wrong? What should I do or have done?

 

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AdamUSN  (A 57465)

Jun 10, 2010, 8:08 PM
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Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? Can't Post

Hi all,

Recently I visited a new DZ on a trip home. After getting manifested I went to the packing shed. I spoke with a cameraman and a TI. Asked them the rules, layout, and many other questions. I asked the landing pattern, where a good setup and play spot is, where not to land. I was told the answers and all that matters is No Wind and Left Hand Pattern.

I set up and played the started my pattern, downwind, when I turned left to base I saw that Everyone other than me was doing a right hand pattern. I kept smart and predictable and turned base to final hugging the runway to stay away from Every jumper under canopy. I had a good landing without any issues.

Also in freefall I was with one other guy. We hooked up and turned a couple of points. While we both deployed two dudes that were freefalling screamed by us at 4000 ft and deployed below us. It's a scary feeling when you have a canopy opening and someone screams by you under a hundred feet away.

Needless to say I allotted time for two jumps here and only did one. I didn't have the safety feeling as at other dropzones.


stratostar  (Student)

Jun 10, 2010, 8:17 PM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing wrong asking those you did for info, however if in doubt @ a new place ask the DZO or S&TA if one is on field. Also at a new place not a bad idea to do a hop n pop or be one of the last out, more so if your going to be open @ 4K, less likely to have other wizzing past you under canopy.

Are you sure they wern't wingsuits or camera flyers filming tandems? Might be best to talk to your home instructors about this and not seek advice from the internet and those who don't know you.Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 10, 2010, 8:17 PM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Evidently nobody talked about landing pattern on the plane?

Evidently nobody talked about exit separation on the plane? Did you read the winds aloft chart or did they even have one?

Was it something you missed or was it something the other guys did wrong/different?



All said, as you probably already know, some DZs are more safety-oriented than others.


AdamUSN  (A 57465)

Jun 10, 2010, 8:47 PM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump at Suffolk Va. Don, the manager is great, safety is #1. I'm new, granted I'm going to make mistakes.

No one talked about seperation, no winds aloft chart for that day. Cameramen and the TI should know the pattern for the day.

I didn't think 4k was a high pull, considering if I pull at 4k that's prolly 3800, 600-700ft of snivel so I have a canopy at 3000ft.

Let me ask this, if you show up at s DZ, what questions do I ask?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 10, 2010, 9:12 PM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Meh, sometimes landing patterns change during the day depending on winds, of course.

4k is not a high pull regardless of snivel time.

FFers screaming past at <100 ft is not good.

Best bet is DZO or S&TA to answer questions. There are a lot of TIs and vidiots who don't know as much as they think they do.

(For all you absolute-minded out there: Yes, there are some Bozo DZOs and S&TAs.)

My $0.02 on questions:
- Aircraft emergency procedures
- Exit order
- Cut/No cut on exits
- Landing patterns and safest areas
- Winds aloft estimates
- Jump run direction
- Exit separation
- Overhead view for outs and landing areas
- All other DZ rules
- Who to watch out for
- Who's the skybabe most likely to show you a good time at night.
- What kind of beer does the DZO like.

Hope that helps.


AdamUSN  (A 57465)

Jun 10, 2010, 9:38 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Meh, sometimes landing patterns change during the day depending on winds, of course.

4k is not a high pull regardless of snivel time.

FFers screaming past at <100 ft is not good.

Best bet is DZO or S&TA to answer questions. There are a lot of TIs and vidiots who don't know as much as they think they do.

(For all you absolute-minded out there: Yes, there are some Bozo DZOs and S&TAs.)

My $0.02 on questions:
- Aircraft emergency procedures
- Exit order
Quote:
- Cut/No cut on exits
- Landing patterns and safest areas
- Winds aloft estimates
- Jump run direction
- Exit separation
- Overhead view for outs and landing areas
- All other DZ rules
- Who to watch out for
- Who's the skybabe most likely to show you a good time at night.
- What kind of beer does the DZO like.

Hope that helps.

Quote:
- Cut/No cut on exits

I do not understand this question, what is a cut/nocut on exit?

I have never even heard of this before


asolomon

Jun 11, 2010, 12:21 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

this is an advice from one inexperienced jumper to the other...


1. I think YOU need to know your landing pattern first before you make comments about TI and cameramen. On most of the dropzones there are two landing patterns - one for junior (non-pro rated) jumpers and another for pros's (these are the TI's and cameraman). Often the pros have right-hand pattern and the less experienced would have left-hand pattern.

2. When you get to new dz, you got to get a proper briefing on the landing patterns and area. You got to getit from the person who is designated to give it to you.

3. You need to know how you are going to land before you board the plane - plan A and plan B, in case the wind changes the direction.

4. You need to watch the wind and you might have to adjust the landing pattern, if the wind has changed on your way to altitude.

5. The reason someone might have come past you, might not have been necessary their fault. There is number of factors here - one could possibly be a separation in the plane. Another would be tracking...

6. Tracking - if you have tracked for too long and even with slightly wrong angle, you might have been in their space... dangerous (please read some other threads about tracking and how important it is... )

7. Dont take it all too personally - learn from others, their posts... ask questions that will make you safe in the air!

Blue skies
:)


burtonjm  (B 33810)

Jun 11, 2010, 6:06 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Quote:
- Cut/No cut on exits

I do not understand this question, what is a cut/nocut on exit?

I have never even heard of this before

The pilot will cut the engine throttle on jump run to slow the forward speed of the plane, which also helps him nose down a little bit and get the tail out of the way. That's how it is at my DZ at least, I'm not sure how others are run.


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 11, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't think 4k was a high pull, considering if I pull at 4k that's prolly 3800, 600-700ft of snivel so I have a canopy at 3000ft.

Considering that most people break off at 4k, that is a high opening if you are one of the first out. I would suggest no matter where you jump, if your going to open at 4, then you might want to be last out of the plane. Sounds like the guys that went past you so close, may have needed to give more separation though for sure, unless you and your buddy were drifting up the line of flight which can happen. Maybe you and your friend where chasing each other all over the sky and didnt realize it. So it MAY (not saying it was), but it MAY be your fault that they were so close to the group that went by you under canopy.

Where you trying to freefly, or belly flying? I have seen a lot of new jumpers try to freefly and not realize how much they are moving up or down the line of flight.


Psychonaut  (C License)

Jun 11, 2010, 8:33 AM
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Re: [dgskydive] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you take into account that the vidiots could have possibly been setting up in a seperate pattern to swoop? I can't assume things but that's often the case.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 11, 2010, 8:49 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't think 4k was a high pull...

Most experienced jumpers will pull between 3k and 2k, therefore pulling at 4k can be a problem if you're in front of them. Exit order should be determined, among other things, by pull height. Lowest pullers out first, and stacking canopy openings to the highest ones out last, which is usually the tandems. That way no one is freefalling past already-open canopies. All this should be figured out on the ground or during the climb to altitude, by talking with other jumpers and finding out what they're doing, then rearranging yourselves into the proper order for safety. As a new guy, all you need to do is walk up to someone who looks like they know what they're doing, and say; "I'm new here, and I'm pulling at 4-grand - where would you like me in the line-up?" Don't be shy - they'll respect you for being forthright and asking.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jun 11, 2010, 8:52 AM)


AdamUSN  (A 57465)

Jun 11, 2010, 9:17 AM
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Re: [Psychonaut] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well more to the story, we were first out bellyfly, the two that went by us were freeflying headdown I think. We flew away from line of flight (away from the tail) and tracked perpendicular to jumprun. So, really we should have been far away from everyone. I had to 180 to go back to the DZ.

No one was swooping either. Lesson learned is continue to ask questions - thanks for the extra questions! Be cautious, and continue to be predictable. I didn't take the word of only 1 person becaused I asked an instructor aswell.

If others read this maybe the lesson is to give more seperation of you on exit. Know the jump plan, follow the pattern and keep your eyes open.


Psychonaut  (C License)

Jun 11, 2010, 10:25 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If others read this maybe the lesson is to give more seperation of you on exit.

This isn't the correct way to fix things. According to what your pilot says jumprun speed and wind is doing, exit timing is crucial so you aren't pushing people to land out.

As said, the correct way to go about this is figure out before you load the plane who is doing what. Hopefully you've learned most places do belly big to small, freefly big to small, then students and tandems, but this can be altered such as in your situation.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 11, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Exit order should be determined, among other things, by pull height. Lowest pullers out first, and stacking canopy openings to the highest ones out last, which is usually the tandems.

John - SERIOUSLY? Unsure

I'd like to reference the newbies to search on discussion about freefall drift and exit order. Freefall drift should define exit order = typ fall rate (slowest to fastest) for fun jumpers on normal wind type days.

Belly, then FF, then HIGH opening students (even there, you might put them out before freefly - the students might open low and thus drift right over the freeflyers - they won't thank you for that), tandems last. (Groups size within discipline groups doesn't matter a bit so big to small, small to big doesn't matter a whit. For that matter example, I'd rather go 10w, 2w, 8w rather than 10w, 8w, 2w for better safety/separation of the big groups.)

Major deviations in planned pull height (such as tandems last) makes sense, but not for a general rule.



Edit: this is for a TYPICAL wind day and jump run (into the wind, with uppers faster than base winds and those winds in the same directions). cross wind jump runs, shearing wind layers, etc change things....


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 11, 2010, 10:45 AM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jun 11, 2010, 10:41 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I didn't think 4k was a high pull...
Most experienced jumpers will pull between 3k and 2k, therefore pulling at 4k can be a problem if you're in front of them.

To the OP: This varies GREATLY from DZ to DZ... (even as represented here)

I've been at DZ's that really started worrying about any (non-CRW) experienced jumpers who pulled above USPA minimums for their license regardless of their exit order as this hinted at a jumper who shouldn't really be jumping. Crazy

On the other hand, I was recently checking out the lineup for a Twin-Otter load at a DZ I frequent and found that the all experienced load had people opening from 2k to 14k and everywhere in between. (well arranged and planned based on the mix of dive types)

SO, when I go to a DZ whose behavior I don't know, I make sure to find out the exit order/opening alt's practice, and specifically for the load I'm getting on.

I also like to get there early, ask the questions and then watch to see if the answers seem to match the actual behavior.

Just another $.02 (now you have $.12 if you've been saving Wink )

JW


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
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Re: [fcajump] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To the OP: This varies GREATLY from DZ to DZ... (even as represented here)
.
.
.
get there early, ask the questions and then watch to see if the answers seem to match the actual behavior.

best point made - thanks\ (especially checking to see if the DZ actually walks their talk)

one should find out what the DZ does as their rules. and then you have 2 choices

1 - follow their rules or:
2 - go elsewhere

go elsewhere if they do stupid things (like putting out FF before RW on windy days, or don't have any rules, etc). trying to change them as a visitor is a waste of time


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 11, 2010, 10:48 AM)


Butters  (C 37840)

Jun 11, 2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Belly, then FF, then HIGH opening students (even there, you might put them out before freefly - the students might open low and thus drift right over the freeflyers - they won't thank you for that), tandems last.

Oh sure, just leave out the wingsuiters ... Unimpressed


AdamUSN  (A 57465)

Jun 11, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Re: [Psychonaut] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

The load on the plane was as follows, 2 belly, 2 freeflyers, 3 tandems, 3 cameramen. I was doing a diving exit, holding heading, my buddy was coming around to me.

Every dropzone I have been too it is always the same, BW Belly, Belly flyers, BW Freeflyers, Freeflyers, Students, Tandem, Then I am not sure on CReW but I think they are before Wingsuits generally?

I was in the correct slot/position on the plane. I do not think that there was much for winds at altitude so the separation should have been 5 or so seconds. I have been spotting with groundspeed 40 miles an hour and when you look out the people are still below the plane and not drifting off as normal. so I had to do a 15 second count. (we have a recommended chart at my home DZ.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 11, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Re: [Butters] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Belly, then FF, then HIGH opening students (even there, you might put them out before freefly - the students might open low and thus drift right over the freeflyers - they won't thank you for that), tandems last.

Oh sure, just leave out the wingsuiters ... Unimpressed

absolutely - leave them out.....Tongue last,

please captain p - It's windy enough, can we just take jump run out ONE or TWO MORE MILEs????


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 11, 2010, 11:34 AM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do not think that there was much for winds at altitude so the separation should have been 5 or so seconds. I have been spotting with groundspeed 40 miles an hour and when you look out the people are still below the plane and not drifting off as normal. so I had to do a 15 second count..

not much winds at altitude?
groundspeed of 40?

which was it? can't be both

as far as looking out and watching where the others in front of you are - that's a myth. it's the same picture each time no matter what the winds are (AIRspeed is always uniform regardless of the winds). Look out at the ground progress, not the other group.

if the GS was 40, that's pretty windy and your 15 second delay was appropriate - so most likely, the FF behind you got impatient and didn't take a long enough delay. BUT, you should still have increased separation just due to you were RW and they were FF - someone in there was drifting too.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 11, 2010, 11:35 AM)


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 11, 2010, 11:36 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Exit order should be determined, among other things, by pull height. Lowest pullers out first, and stacking canopy openings to the highest ones out last, which is usually the tandems.

John - SERIOUSLY? Unsure

I've highlighted the part that you apparently missed in your first read.

So, if you have two four-way belly-fly groups, one opening at 4k, and one opening at 2.5k, which goes first?


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 11, 2010, 11:54 AM
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Re: [Psychonaut] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

If your swooping and not using the pattern that everyone else is, then maybe the swoopers should not be landing with everyone else.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jun 11, 2010, 12:08 PM
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Re: [AdamUSN] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Also in freefall I was with one other guy. We hooked up and turned a couple of points. While we both deployed two dudes that were freefalling screamed by us at 4000 ft and deployed below us. It's a scary feeling when you have a canopy opening and someone screams by you under a hundred feet away.

Time for a little exercise on separation:

1 kt is very close to 1.5 ft/sec, and using ft/sec is easier.

A balloonist and his girlfriend are floating along at 2500ft agl. He looks at his chart and sees there is a DZ below. But being in a balloon there's not much he can do about it. The DZ is near the ocean and an easterly wind is blowing him due west at 40ft/sec. He looks down and sees the DZ drift by below him. He feels not a breath of wind, because he is moving with the wind. He IS the wind. He lights a cigar.

He looks up and sees a DH6 Twin Otter way above him, going west. He recalls from his weather briefing that at altitude the winds are prevailing westerlies, but down low the ocean effect has them in the opposite direction. He gets out his laser rangefinder and determines that the Otter is moving at 50 ft/sec relative to his balloon. A quick calculation tells him that the Otter's groundspeed is 50+40 = 90ft/sec. He knows an Otter flies jumprun at a true airspeed of 140ft/sec, so he deduces the upper winds are 50ft/sec from the west.

A 4-way team leaves the Otter (they saw the balloon but mistook it for a water tower). They turn 22 points. At 4000ft they are directly above the balloon, breakoff and track. Each tracks 300 ft before deploying. They are all open at 2500ft. One has line twists and is in a slow turn, another opened off heading, a third is stowing his slider while the other is messing with his booties. Each skydiver is 300ft from the balloon, in various directions. The girlfriend is impressed - it is a cool sight.

The balloon pilot sees a second 4-way team leave the Otter after 11 seconds, (they figured 990ft should be ample separation from the first group based on the 90ft/sec groundspeed since 11sec x 90ft/sec = 990ft); that leaves 300ft for their tracks, 300ft for the other teams' tracks, and 330 ft as a buffer between the groups). They turn 26 points.

He sees the second team also break and track at 4000ft, each tracking 300ft. in equally spaced directions.

The girlfriend coughs because the cigar smoke is hanging around; there is no wind relative to the balloon to disperse it.

How far from the balloon is the center of the second group, and is there a risk of collision between groups?

Note - It is not at all uncommon for upper and lower winds to be in opposite directions if you are near the Great Lakes, the ocean, or mountains.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 11, 2010, 12:45 PM
Post #24 of 52 (1844 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
not much winds at altitude?
groundspeed of 40?

which was it? can't be both
Coulda been an AN2 Angelic

Wendy P.


hallux  (C License)

Jun 11, 2010, 4:00 PM
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Re: [kallend] Am I wrong? What should I do or have done? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the ridiculous word problem...Is this part of the USPA's new testing procedure. I certainly hope we have Texas instrument calculators by the door of the otter so we can figure this shit out before exit. God I would love to hear the argument of all the egomaniacs at the door. The real answer to the question is anyone that thinks a ballon is a water tower is a moron. especially at your home DZ. And especially two 4 way teams!

nice math problem but couldnt you just tell us whether or not 11 sec is enough seperation for a plane with 90ft/sec groundspeed? I would rather just hear the answer than wade through a pool of convoluted BS. And know we need to convert 90ft/sec to MPH and also knots. Because no pilot I have ever asked gave me his groundspeed in ft/sec. I can only imagine the confusion that answer would cause on the plane.
I mean seriously if you are going to give an equation then at least make it relatable and use terms and measurement increments that skydivers can actually relate to and process.

Oh yea I especially like where the balloon pilot is tracking the otter with laser range finders and calculating his speed in ft/sec........You could of just given the speed of the otter in KNOTS and skipped all the drama and conversions.


(This post was edited by hallux on Jun 11, 2010, 4:07 PM)


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