Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
I finally understand how low turns can happen

 

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dgskydive  (C 25738)

Jun 10, 2010, 12:50 PM
Post #26 of 45 (1080 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

You have enough experience to already know this, but for others. If you are not comfortable landing downwind with the conditions you take off in, then maybe people should rethink getting on that plane at that time.

I have a lot of jumps at Perris and havent known it to be as bad as you seem to think it is. But it will change at times.


JohnDeere  (D License)

Jun 10, 2010, 7:58 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1054 views)
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Re: [almeister112] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats! you did the right thing!Smile I have made a few out landing decisions at 3000ft i don't waist time on figuring it out.......I have had people ask why i have turn towards out landings so quick and so high..... i dont mind long walks......i have never road in a helicopter that i couldnt jump out of.......and dont plan on it anytime soonWinkTongue Well done!


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 11, 2010, 8:19 AM
Post #28 of 45 (1027 views)
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Re: [almeister112] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

The only thing I'd add is that you don't have to "whip it around" at the end to land. Flat turns can be your best friend.
But, better to land out than to land close to the ambulance.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jun 12, 2010, 10:46 AM
Post #29 of 45 (978 views)
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Re: [almeister112] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

You just discover the reality. Low turns are dangerous but have sometimes to be done hopefully with the proper technique.
Low turns are necessary when converging traffic occurs just before landing. They have also to be done just to avoid unexpected obstacles or avoiding a hurt jumper on the ground...etc.
Now what is the proper technique ?
If you turn by just depressing one toggle, your parachute turns and get a bank and the rate of descent is increased by a factor of 1.5 to 3 depending on how hard is your turn. If you hit the ground with increased vertical speed, it's going to hurt. Then don't do that.
If you really have to do a low turn, do a flat turn. To do so, have both toggles at shoulders/chest level and lift one toggle opposite to the turn you want to do. eg. Flat turn to the left : put the two toggles at shoulders, then lift more or less the right toggle depending how fast you want your turn to be done.

That technique allows the parachute to slow down first then to remain flat (no increase of vertical speed) when turning.

Now, since the need of a low turn can happen suddenly, your worst enemy is your reflex of depressing one toggle and start sinking literally into the ground. To avoid that kind of situation, practice first your flat turn above 2000'. When you are proficient to it and with the supervision of your instructor or competent coach, practice flat turn at lower altitude and later do the flat turn at 200' if you have the green light for it. That training is to have you developing a habit to suddenly do a low flat turn when you have absolutely no alternative.
Be safe, be careful and tell us about your flat turn practices. Smile


(This post was edited by erdnarob on Jun 12, 2010, 10:48 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 12, 2010, 3:08 PM
Post #30 of 45 (951 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you turn by just depressing one toggle, your parachute turns and get a bank and the rate of descent is increased by a factor of 1.5 to 3 depending on how hard is your turn. If you hit the ground with increased vertical speed, it's going to hurt. Then don't do that.
If you really have to do a low turn, do a flat turn. To do so, have both toggles at shoulders/chest level and lift one toggle opposite to the turn you want to do. eg. Flat turn to the left : put the two toggles at shoulders, then lift more or less the right toggle depending how fast you want your turn to be done.

To get a faster turn rate and finish with more energy left for flaring you
can start with one toggle and immediately add opposite toggle to counter the roll, stopping with the opposite toggle and raising both at the end. If you do it right you'll finish at trim speed with no surge and speed increase when you raise the toggles.

Obviously that's something you want to be very familiar with before trying it down low.

You also shouldn't be needing full speed to get an acceptable flare from a ZP canopy or appropriately sized F111 canopy that's not ragged out.


danornan  (D 11308)

Jun 27, 2010, 4:47 AM
Post #31 of 45 (854 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of good and a few bad points in the thread. First of all, the initial poster did the correct thing. If you are ever not sure, take the safe approach and land away from the DZ. A long walk is so much better than a short ride!

You asked a question, and I think that way too many people are afraid to do a downwind landing. They can be done safely and are far better than the "I have to land in the wind" at any cost, frame of mind. Many hook turns, broken bones and deaths are for this unnecessary reason.

Learn to land downwind safely and practice it so you won't be afraid to do them. Innocent bystanders have also died because of " I have to land into the wind" hook turns .


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 27, 2010, 8:12 PM
Post #32 of 45 (811 views)
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Re: [danornan] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

Saturday, while waiting for the plane, all the jumpers on the load agreed that we should land to the north. Sometime between then and landing, the winds changed 180 degrees. Every jumper on the load saw the numorous wind indicators had done an about face.

The first jumper down maintained his approach pattern and did a downwind landing(thanks Bill). Everyone on the load followed suite. One person after another had long, fast, soft, surfing landings down wind. It can be done!!


lurch  (D 27583)

Jun 27, 2010, 11:43 PM
Post #33 of 45 (774 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

At the wingsuit world record in Elsinore last november we got that. The wind there regularly switches 180 degrees. At the time I thought oh shit...68-way downwinder, here goes, this is gonna be wild! In a sky that crowded you do NOT break discipline. Besides, if you're in a world record you're supposed to be skilled enough to handle that and land it standing. Everyone I saw, did.
-B


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 28, 2010, 4:14 PM
Post #34 of 45 (672 views)
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Re: [jdfreefly] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
.... 20 years of rules written in blood...
It's amazing how many "jumpers" out there don't understand that. It's even more amazing how many blow it off as unimportant.
Skydivers understand it and learn from it...continuously.

To the OP:
Good job, good job, good job!
Now spread that attitude around some.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 28, 2010, 4:18 PM
Post #35 of 45 (669 views)
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Re: [billvon] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If the winds are light enough to change that quickly, then they are light
>enough for you to take a downwinder easily.

Not true at many DZ's. We see radical and large changes in wind direction during summer afternoons at Perris.
Once again you misdirect.
I bolded his point for you....again.

You're gonna defend FMD to the very end aren't you?
LaughLaughLaugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 28, 2010, 4:20 PM
Post #36 of 45 (667 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...Imagine you change your plan last second and the person behind you has no idea that you are about to change something. now you create a problem for them. .

FMD guys don't hear you...and don't want to hear you.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 28, 2010, 5:23 PM
Post #37 of 45 (652 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

>I bolded his point for you....again.

Then you misunderstood. At Perris, winds that change quite quickly are often not light. There is no such thing as "winds that are light enough to change quickly."

>You're gonna defend FMD to the very end aren't you?

You're getting a very large chip on your shoulder over this for some reason.

Your favorite method does not work for every DZ out there. Some have unique considerations, and thus have unique solutions to them. At DZ's where shifting winds mean light winds, or the winds rarely shift, then setting a direction before takeoff can work well. At DZ's where winds can shift rapidly and dramatically, it doesn't work well.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 28, 2010, 10:12 PM
Post #38 of 45 (619 views)
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Re: [billvon] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're getting a very large chip on your shoulder over this for some reason.

Yep - if that's what you choose to call it, then have at it.. It's all about the injuries and blowing them off because of volume and wind changes..."More jumps = more injuries"...it doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, the case.

What IS the case is, "more confusion = more injuries" but FMD is good enough because of the high volume and wind changes, right?

I'm beginning to think that some FMD DZs have become immune to the emotional impact of physical impacts.

Bill, you're saying drastic wind changes...I assume the also means the time between FMD and last man down?
Geez...students (AND more experienced, I see) have a great time with that, eh?

If I'm wrong on the assumption, then your pilot has a radio. Your DZO has a radio to speak to him, right?
Can you imagine? "Uhhhh, Mr Pilot? Tell the jumpers to land to the south on this load, OK?"

Geez. What am I doing...I've listed some solutions to the problems of FMD through more than one thread for what? But, I won't give up until somebody, somewhere recognizes that FMD causes more problems than it solves...especially for the youngsters.

So back to the point...
"If the winds are light enough...."
His statements stands regardless of the mis-direct attempt.
Ball's in your court.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 28, 2010, 10:30 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 28, 2010, 10:28 PM
Post #39 of 45 (615 views)
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Re: [lurch] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the wingsuit world record in Elsinore last november we got that. The wind there regularly switches 180 degrees. At the time I thought oh shit...68-way downwinder, here goes, this is gonna be wild! In a sky that crowded you do NOT break discipline. Besides, if you're in a world record you're supposed to be skilled enough to handle that and land it standing. Everyone I saw, did.
-B

..and if that many people can do it, I see no reason why an every-day load of 23 Otter jumpers can't do it, do you? My hat's off to you guys.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 29, 2010, 10:11 AM
Post #40 of 45 (571 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

>What IS the case is, "more confusion = more injuries"

Not here it isn't. You may have a technique that works well at your DZ; that's great. I'd suggest that the people who jump at other DZ's know their DZ's (and the unique conditions there) better than you do.

>"If the winds are light enough...."
>His statements stands regardless of the mis-direct attempt.

Again, your misunderstanding comes from your lack of experience in the kind of winds we have. If you had more experience with winds that can change from south at 10 to north at 15 within 45 seconds, you would understand the error in that statement.

It's like saying "if you have a reserve small enough to land you safely, it should fit in your rig." That statement makes an inherently incorrect assumption.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 29, 2010, 4:08 PM
Post #41 of 45 (521 views)
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Re: [billvon] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

OK...you just don't get it.
I ' l l s p e l l i t o u t f o r y o u.

He's talked about light winds...not winds at your DZ since apparently you don't have light winds there.

And you are right. I don't know about your DZ. You've already warned me about it. I now know it's not something I want to get mixed up in...depending on some bozo to set a landing pattern for an entire load...expecting students to stare at the ground for the landing patterns, trying to set up for it and not focusing on what they should be doing.

Done.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jun 29, 2010, 4:22 PM
Post #42 of 45 (514 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
depending on some bozo to set a landing pattern for an entire load...expecting students to stare at the ground for the landing patterns, trying to set up for it and not focusing on what they should be doing.

Perris has a MASSIVE amount of "out landing" space, some of which is reserved for students. That out landing space is just as flat and wide open as the main landing area ... it's just dirt, not grass, and farther from the packing area. But with the great "retrieval crew" at Perris, often the "out" landers are back to the packing area sooner than those who made it to the grass.

It's extremely possible (and I know because I've done it many times at Perris, usually when there's a heavy crosswind in the main area and I'd rather land into the wind) to land whatever direction you want if you don't like the direction the FMD chose ... you just need to do it outside of the main landing area. Students can feel free to ignore the FMD in the main landing area as they are landing in a completely separate area.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 30, 2010, 9:38 AM
Post #43 of 45 (471 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

>He's talked about light winds...

He said: "If the winds are light enough to change that quickly, then they are light enough for you to take a downwinder easily."

And there's nothing wrong with that statement as it stands. If the winds are going to stay really light and variable, then you can indeed land into the (light) downwind. That's the rule at Perris as well; in light winds, land to the north.

However, implicit in that statement is "if the winds are light they can change quickly; if they're strong, they won't change as quickly and you can stick to one direction." And that's simply not true here.

>I now know it's not something I want to get mixed up in...depending
>on some bozo to set a landing pattern for an entire load...

If you don't like what direction the "bozo" chooses (whether said bozo indicates it before takeoff, in the plane, before exit, or on landing) you can always land somewhere else*. At Perris, that means moving about 50 yards further east. It's really not that big a deal.

(* - with the exception of bigways, where all landing areas have to follow the same direction due to the volume of traffic.)


ridestrong  (C 38471)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:30 PM
Post #44 of 45 (438 views)
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Re: [billvon] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, implicit in that statement is "if the winds are light they can change quickly; if they're strong, they won't change as quickly and you can stick to one direction."

That is exactly what was implied in that statement.


bluetwo  (C License)

Jun 30, 2010, 5:46 PM
Post #45 of 45 (434 views)
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Re: [billvon] I finally understand how low turns can happen [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really glad you posted your story (OP). Brand new jumpers like me have so many scenerios we've never even considered...

I hope there'll be more good things to consider in the future.


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