Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
CANOPY TRANSITION

 

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12bhi

Feb 13, 2003, 6:52 PM
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CANOPY TRANSITION Can't Post

   This may be a hard question to answer,but I'm
going to ask anyways.I'm a student and I'm going
to finish aff this spring.I was jumping a pd 170
which I was very comfortable with.Right now I'm
looking at a rig for sale that has a sabre 135 main
in it...NO I will not jump this rig until I'm qualified
to pilot it safely,I plan to use rental until I transition
down...I just want to know if it would be a stupid
move to even buy it and if it would take me forever
to downsize to it...I know there are more than one
variable in the process of downsizing,but I would
just like to know if that certain wingloading would
take me forever to reach....I weigh 115 lbs 5'4"...
Also the container is a J-1 and I would like to
know what size canopy I could upsize to if I had
to............Thanx 4 the help.....Jay


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 13, 2003, 7:00 PM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you talked to your instructors about it? They would have the best advice for you since they have seen you fly your canopy, etc. If they feel this would be a good move for you, then they can give you a good progression to eventually downsize to it, too.

Good luck!


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 13, 2003, 7:16 PM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

hey man, ask you instructors. they know the best answere for YOU. Wink

we can't give acurate advise when we have never seen you fly a canopy before.

later


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 13, 2003, 9:51 PM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't answer the 135 question, but a Javelin J1, if you check at their website, should hold a 150 main and reserve pretty comfortably.

Wendy W.


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 14, 2003, 2:35 AM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

It is always a bad idea to buy gear for the future.

Save your $$$ now and you'll be able to afford exactly the canopy you truely desire when you are ready.

The used canopy you desire now will be as easily available 'tomorrow' as today. Tomorrow you you may fully appreciate what you really want in a canopy and reget going for a 'cheap' 'good' buy today.

You'd still be ok under the 135 but you should seriously hold on to your $$$ until you know absolutely what you want to buy.

Ken


flyhi  (D License)

Feb 14, 2003, 4:41 AM
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Re: [wmw999] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
a Javelin J1, if you check at their website, should hold a 150 main and reserve pretty comfortably.

I had a Stiletto 150 in mine and now have a Vengeance 135 in there. Worked pretty well, just had to tighten up the closing loop a little.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 14, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Re: [flyhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a buddy with a Stiletto 170 in a J1; no problem. I have also seen people put as small as a 135 in them and just tighten the closing loop.


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 14, 2003, 10:29 AM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

At your weight that is not a bad choice. You'll still be at a 1 to 1 ratio.
Will it be a big change?? Hell yes. It was a big change going from a student 200 something to a Triathalon 160...and I got the grass stains in my ears to prove it. The 135 is going to fly faster straight and level, turn faster, burn more altitude.and flare a lot more. All of which you have to be ready for......
You're out at Morris and there are some good people over there. Ask them what they think, but if you don't feel you are ready, don't do it.


sarge  (A 36)

Feb 14, 2003, 6:14 PM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry, but somebody could spend thousands of dollars on rentals before they are personally ready to downsize 35sq ft. ...

Money well/poorly spent???

The container may be a super investment idea, (albeit price hasn't been mentioned) , (IMO) because you have a lot of latitude in stuffing possibilities. Why not pick up the rig (minus/main) and tie up a 150 to it???

Seems like a lot of $$$ to let sit on the shelf when it could be put to good use in skill development at other than rental expenses?

.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 14, 2003, 6:48 PM
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Re: [sarge] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
could spend thousands of dollars on rentals before they are personally ready to downsize 35sq ft.

At $30 a demo from a manufacture for 2 weeks, that a HELL of a lot of demoing...


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 15, 2003, 1:52 PM
Post #11 of 39 (2428 views)
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Re: [JJohnson] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

umm no. 8 jumps and a 135 is not a good choice - not matter what the wingloading.

Check out PD's website of loading charts and comparisions that 1:1 fails to apply with small canopies.

My wife (115 pounds) made her first 100 + jumps on a 170 then move to a 150 for a few and then finally to her 135 Sabre2....ALL closely supervised. The rules were simple -
Land safely.
Follow a landing pattern.
Make 25 landings in a ROW in various conditions standing up - falling over meant starting again.
Learn the canopy, practise (up high) flat turns, riser turns on so on.
Land accurately.

At the time she complained that her friends were "progressing" to smaller canopies before her. Almost all have hurt themselves in one way or another (at least one seriously) and now she's a better pilot and handles conditions far better than the "advanced" friends.

Now I'm not saying this will work for everyone, but it worked for her. You need to ask the staff at the dropzone who know, far better than any of us, your canopy skills.

I don't believe for a second that any jumper out there with 8 jumps could land a 135 (or bigger for that matter) safely in all directions, conditions and in someones back yard.

Ask RESPECTED staff but remember to take all advice with a grain of salt.

This is no game, get it wrong and you could very well end up dead.

Blue skies
Ian


12bhi

Feb 15, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

 Thanx for the input guys...I think I'm leaning
towards a 150 main...Another question...Would
like to hear some opinions on a triathlon canopy?


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 15, 2003, 9:40 PM
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would
like to hear some opinions on a triathlon canopy?


Talk to your instructors first, about demoing different models/makes of canopies. With that said, here's my opinion: The one canopy that does nothing well...try demoing a Spectre instead if you want to go with a 7 cell.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 16, 2003, 6:02 AM
Post #14 of 39 (2364 views)
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm no expert on current canopies, but there is at least one good reason to get lots of input from local jumpers.

If you, as a somewhat beginner, use gear that other jumpers at your DZ are familiar with, they can help you with things like brake settings and knowing how that kind of canopy lands from personal experience, rather than reputation.

Of course, if it's a big DZ it's a moot point. It doesn't mean that you should follow them sheeplike; just that it should be a consideration when you get gear. That way you're also buying local expertise.

Wendy W.


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 16, 2003, 1:18 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't say it was a good choice, I said it wasn't a bad choice. A Sabre is not a high performance canopy. He also said he was going to jump rental gear for awhile. I did also ask him to check with the people at SDI, whom I know as I did my student work there.
Unlike your wife, shortly after student status, like at 15 jumps I downsized to a Tri 160, with put me at a 1 to 1 about. Admittly there is a whole other learning curve to start with. Anytime that any jumper downsizes that learning curve starts all over again. And no jumper that downsizes is able to handle that new canopy as well as the previous one. All that aside I fail to see your point. I did advise some measure of caution.


listo  (D License)

Feb 16, 2003, 8:36 PM
Post #16 of 39 (2302 views)
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Re: [JJohnson] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A Sabre is not a high performance canopy.

Did you know that a Sabre is actually faster than a stiletto? Overall, a sabre is a faster canopy. The forward speeds are the same but the sabre has a faster vertical speed than the stiletto which makes it a little faster. To say that a sabre is not a HP canopy is kind of wrong. If a sabre is wing loaded high enough, it is quite capable of doing the same things that a stiletto is. I have never owned a sabre, but I do know people who do and they swoop those things just like they are elipticals.
The sabre is a Zero-P canopy that is a square, but never under estimate its potential! It will kill you just as quick as any eliptical out there. Maybe even quicker because people think that they aren't HP.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 17, 2003, 6:17 AM
Post #17 of 39 (2278 views)
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Re: [JJohnson] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I didn't say it was a good choice, I said it wasn't a bad choice.

Implying it's a good choice, intentionally or not.

Quote:
Unlike your wife, shortly after student status, like at 15 jumps I downsized to a Tri 160, with put me at a 1 to 1 about.

Yes 1:1 on a 160 not a 135 - Big difference there and that is my point.

Quote:
I did advise some measure of caution.

Maybe I just feel more strongly about jumpers who haven't the skills being on small canopies - Personally I'm tired of watching people frap in unnecessarily, especially when I see smaller people downsizing to get the 1:1 ratio when they can hardly land their 150.

Quote:
A Sabre is not a high performance canopy. He also said he was going to jump rental gear for awhile.

Any 135 canopy is a HP canopy - it may have different characteristics to other canopies out there but it's still going to dive, and fast, when you turn.
Rental gear.....well once the cost of rental gear starts to add up it wouldn't surprise me if the temptation to jump the 135 took over, but who knows. I'm just saying remove the temptation factor.

Blue skies
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Feb 17, 2003, 6:20 AM)


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 17, 2003, 10:05 AM
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Re: [listo] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah yeah, we all know any canopy can kill you. Yes a Sabre is zero p, and yes he would NOT be wingloading at more than 1 to 1, if that. He weighs 115 lbs. Yes a Sabre is fast. Faster than a Stiletto, because it is a steeper angle, in straight and level flight. It will never handle like a Stil, however as it is still square.


JJohnson  (D 22675)

Feb 17, 2003, 10:12 AM
Post #19 of 39 (2240 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

At 8 jumps does he belong under it? No. Give him another 20 or so jumps and he will be fine. Wingloading is pretty much going to dictate how fast the canopy will turn.
Let him talk to the people he's jumping with. Let him rent some gear for a bit, even demo a 150 for a few weeks. If he treats the canopy with respect, flies it conservatively he will will be fine.
SDI has a pretty wide open landing area, lots of outs. The instructors there will give him the advice he needs. Even if sits on the canopy for the whole season, if he's getting a deal on it it would be a good thing for him to have. At his weight, he could be jumping this canopy in a pretty short time...if he so chooses.


sandi

Feb 17, 2003, 10:24 AM
Post #20 of 39 (2234 views)
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Re: [12bhi] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yes 1:1 on a 160 not a 135 - Big difference there and that is my point.

I think this point tends to get neglected in the numerous wing loading discussions in these forums. A 1:1 loading on a larger canopy is not at all the same as a 1:1 loading on a smaller canopy. It just doesn't scale down that way. There's a great article on PD's website that clearly explains this. (I know this article has been referred to before in the forums, but I think it's worth mentioning again). It concerns me that new jumpers with low exit weights may read these discussions and think that they're supposed to have a 1.1:1 or 1.2:1 loading at a certain number of jumps.

I've just recently downsized to a canopy which I load at 1.2 to 1. To larger skydivers this may sound like a lower wing loading. It's not low when the canopy is a 109 sq. ft. It's a small canopy no matter what the loading is. I love my new canopy now, but I'm certain I wouldn't have loved it at 100 jumps or at 200 jumps.

I'm not advising anything, just giving you something to think about. A 135 is going to be a lot more resposive than a 160 or 170 at the same loading.

Just to share my experience since my weight is just a little lower than yours I started on a 240 (that was the smallest rental gear they had at the dz where I started jumping so I was stuck with it for awhile), from there I went to a Sabre 150 and then down to a Sabre 135 at about 100 jumps.

So, if you do choose to buy the gear, no it probably won't take you forever to get on the 135, but a J-1 holds a 150 so why not put one in there and set the 135 aside for a little while.

Also, as far as the J-1 goes, it's designed to hold a 150, a 135 fits very nicely, and I actually had a 120 in mine at one point (not recommending that, just saying it's been done). So you could get a lot of use out of it, just think carefully about which size canopy you put in there to start out with.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 17, 2003, 11:03 AM
Post #21 of 39 (2221 views)
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Re: [JJohnson] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At 8 jumps does he belong under it? No.

Agreed.

Quote:
Give him another 20 or so jumps and he will be fine.
Can't agree with you there. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they might not be fine, instead I'm saying why take that chance. There's no reason that someone with 28 or even 50 (more in most cases) jumps should be on a 135. Of course I have no idea on how well the person in question may fly their canopy. I only have my own experience around the dz and otherwise to draw on. But, really, why even consider that size canopy unless they're going to be going for high(er) performance landings, and even then they should hold off for quite some time before venturing into that realm - there's just so much that people don't know about their canopy that they could learn on safe(er) larger gear.

Buying gear just cause it's a good deal is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Figuring out that maybe you should have gotten the bigger canopy just as you're about to hit the side of a house in someones backyard is not the time to come to that realization.

When I bought my velocity I really wanted a 90. I know I could land it just fine....what I don't KNOW is if I could put it down in someones backyard - in any condition that I'd jump in....pretty sure, but not positive, and that's enough for me to go bigger and eat the cost of downsizing later if I decide to.

Personally I've never seen such a good skydiving gear deal that it's worth killing myself over.

Blue skies
Ian


listo  (D License)

Feb 17, 2003, 11:53 AM
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Re: [JJohnson] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah yeah, we all know any canopy can kill you. Yes a Sabre is zero p, and yes he would NOT be wingloading at more than 1 to 1, if that. He weighs 115 lbs

So are you implying that a sabre 135 @ 1:1 is going to fly exactly the same as a sabre 170 @ 1:1? I sincerely hope not, because they won't. The smaller canopy will dive faster and turn much faster. This is a really popular misconception, that is why I ask.


RozeAY  (D License)

Feb 17, 2003, 11:55 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There's no reason that someone with 28 or even 50 (more in most cases) jumps should be on a 135.

I have to disagree. It is true that a 1:1 wingloading on a smaller canopy is going to be different than a 1:1 wingloading on a larger canopy. But that doesn't mean it can't be flown with low jump numbers. It all depends on the jumper and their ability. All it comes down to is talking with the instructors and experienced canopy pilots at your dropzone about your individual canopy choices.

My first canopy straight off of student status was a Sabre 135. I weigh 105 lbs which gave me a .88 wing loading on that canopy and I loved it. Just because a canopy is smaller or has the ability to be more high performance does not mean you have to do high performance landings. And with 35 jumps I did land it in somebody's backyard.

I am jumping a Stiletto 97 right now and love the performance I get out of it, and I don't do high performance landings with it at all. I land it straight in every time.

So again all it comes down to is talking with your instructors who have seen your skills. Just because a lot of people don't do it doesn't mean it can't be done safely.


listo  (D License)

Feb 17, 2003, 12:03 PM
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Re: [RozeAY] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

Well another thing you need to consider here too. You jump in a place that can jump year round. This guy is up north and has had a lot of time in between jumps AND he has really low jump numbers.

I don't care what the wing loading, nobody under 50 jumps needs to be flying anything smaller than a 150 in a zero-p canopy. It is just an unneccessary risk. Take the time to learn on the big stuff while you can. Your life and canopy skills will greatly increase because of it. I don't know what kind of math is being done here, but this guy weighing 115 is going to be over 1:1 on a 135. The last time I checked, the gear he is talking about weighs about 25 pounds and I seriously doubt he is going to jump shoeless and nude.Wink In fact, using the handy dandy wing load calculator, I am finding that this individual would be loading this canopy @ 1.111:1. This being that the rig weighs 25 pounds and his clothes, helmet, altimeter, goggles and shoes all weigh less than 10 pounds making for 35 pounds of gear. This would make his exit weight more like 150 pounds. Yeah, lets put a low timer with under 75 jumps on a 135 with an exit weight of 150. Gimme a break!Mad

Think about what you are saying people and consider where this guy is jumping as well as keep his frequency in mind.

RozeAY, all of this post was not directed completely at you so please don't feel like I am jumping on you here......ok. I am responding in general to all of the posts I have read on this thread.

Cool


(This post was edited by listo on Feb 17, 2003, 12:12 PM)


RozeAY  (D License)

Feb 17, 2003, 12:29 PM
Post #25 of 39 (2191 views)
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Re: [listo] CANOPY TRANSITION [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
RozeAY, all of this post was not directed completely at you so please don't feel like I am jumping on you here......ok. I am responding in general to all of the posts I have read on this thread.

There are many things to consider here. I'm not saying whether or not this guy should be jumping that canopy. My point is in fact that there are many things to consider and the possibility does exist that a Sabre 135 can be flown with under 50-75 jumps. The decision on what this gentleman should fly should be decided between him and the instructors and experienced canopy pilots at his dropzone that know his ability; not by people that don't know him and are just adhering to numbers they believe to be all important.


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