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Have you ever turned a student away?

 

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captain1976  (D 7183)

Apr 29, 2010, 4:38 PM
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Have you ever turned a student away? Can't Post

Once in a while, someone comes along who has no business being a skydiver. Call them a freak of nature, but for several reasons like being timid, no self confidence or just shit scared, they belong on the ground.

I was 17 and that was me. Looking back, if I ever had a student as bad as me I would highly discourage them from continuing. Someone like that is just asking for trouble. Their ability to react in any emergency is probably nil and they are totally dependent on the main working on each and every jump, thats assuming they pull in the first place.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Apr 29, 2010, 4:59 PM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once in a while, someone comes along who has no business being a skydiver. Call them a freak of nature, but for several reasons like being timid, no self confidence or just shit scared, they belong on the ground.

I was 17 and that was me. Looking back, if I ever had a student as bad as me I would highly discourage them from continuing. Someone like that is just asking for trouble. Their ability to react in any emergency is probably nil and they are totally dependent on the main working on each and every jump, thats assuming they pull in the first place.

And now you have lots of jumps and many decades in the sport. Aren't you glad the people back then didn't think the way you are thinking now? Some students just need some calm encouragement from an authority figure. That's one of the traits of a good instructor.


(This post was edited by BobMoore on Apr 29, 2010, 5:00 PM)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 29, 2010, 5:39 PM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know what personality traits caused it, but I sucked as a student.. Had 48 jumps on student status! Have 6500 jumps these days, a few world records, and an AFF rating.


captain1976  (D 7183)

Apr 29, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Re: [BobMoore] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

And now you have lots of jumps and many decades in the sport. Aren't you glad the people back then didn't think the way you are thinking now? Some students just need some calm encouragement from an authority figure. That's one of the traits of a good instructor.
I guess there is a limit. If someone demonstrates over and over again their inability in regards to safety with little progression, then I probably would have to discourage them.


longtall  (D 7244)

Apr 30, 2010, 5:52 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup;hard to do but that was the safest choice.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Apr 30, 2010, 7:10 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I still had all my ratings (back in the day), I trained a group for S/L.

One small young girl could not release the capewells to cutaway. I worked with her all day even during the lunch break.

She just didn't have the physical strength to handle the EPs.

She could cutaway one side using both hands and all her effort but then didn't have enough strength to handle the other side.

I had to tell her that I couldn't let her jump. She was pretty upset and so was her family after sitting there all day waiting.

But I still slept well that night.

Sometimes you have to man up and tell people, not what they want to hear, but what they need to hear.

While I agree some instructors are better at getting through to people than others I don't agree that a good instructor can train someone with poor physical fitness or lacking mental acuity.

Regardless of how good our equipment gets, there are still times where quick decisions and actions are needed in our sport to survive.


jim_32766  (B 34492)

Apr 30, 2010, 8:52 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

As you can see from my signature I am relatively new to the sport. In the little time I've been around the AFFIs I have seen them send a student off to work in the tunnel before they would allow any more jumps. The student was evidently overcome by the effort to stay stable and would lose track of altitude, not pulling on time. I think that was good advice. If the student can learn to make stability second nature, then the rest of the tasks should be more manageable.

I've seen the AFFIs ground the students for wind too.

I really like that strict focus on safety and hope it's equally evident at all DZs.


hangdiver  (D License)

Apr 30, 2010, 9:21 AM
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Re: [jim_32766] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

What has happened to this sport? I remember when you had to save your own life no matter what. Now you have baby sitters that tell you to play around in a big fan and an electronic gizmo on your back that will open your chute if you forget!
In the old static line progression you could be unstable but you have better pulled or you weren't going to progress very far.
Yeah the Tandem and AFF progressions have let more people experience the sport and the gear is much safer also easier to use but you're still jumping out of a plane for fucks sake what could go wrong?
Quote:
I really like that strict focus on safety and hope it's equally evident at all DZs.

If you like a strict focus on safety this is the wrong sport for you. A person with a strict focus on safety wouldn't jump out of a plane, it ain't safe.

(edited to add)
sorry about the thread drift. Yeah I turned away a couple. As I remember it was also a strength issue.


(This post was edited by hangdiver on Apr 30, 2010, 9:27 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 30, 2010, 9:37 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I have told students that skydiving is not for them and it usually caused a viscous argument with the DZO.
The first time, pair of over-weight women lacked the leg muscle to lift their left feet off the step of the Cessna. The DZO was in the pilot seat and percieved thier exits as back-loops. I perceived their exits as awkward right turns (flat to the relative wind).
When I told the students that they lacked the leg muscles to skydive, the DZO got angry and grounded me for failing to short-line them!

In another case, this stiff, 50-year-old, stubborn, mysoginist Polish man took the first jump course three times over two decades and only did a handful of jumps per year. He pleaded poverty and never did enough jumps to stay current. Every time he shows up, I have to do an emergency procedures review with him. He scared all the other instructors on the DZ, even bloodied the nose of one. All the other instructors and coaches refuse to jump with him.
After he opened low - during a coach dive with me - I told the boss that he would have to buy me the most expensive helmet available before I would jump with that Polish fellow again.
The boss responded by giving an expensive helmet as a Christmas bonus!
Even the manifestor agrees that he is a "crater in search of coordinates!"
A year later, that Polish fellow pulled low again and I tried to give the helmet back to the DZO, explaining that demanding the most expensive helmet was a subtle way of saying that I am too scared to jump with the guy.


livendive  (D 21415)

Apr 30, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, twice (sort of). The first I had meet me for a beer and "to talk" . . . by the time he got there, he'd independently arrived at the conclusion that skydiving was not his thing, so I didn't really have to tell him so much as encourage him in his other pursuits. The second guy simply couldn't grasp anything safety-related and had numerous close calls in like 10 jumps. After the talk, he went to a different DZ. I warned them of my impressions and they let him make several jumps before he properly busted himself up.

Blues,
Dave


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Apr 30, 2010, 2:35 PM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have at the end of ground school told a couple of people that they might wish to do a tandem first to see if they wanted to do a solo jump.
As I recall they did a tandem and we never saw them again.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 30, 2010, 2:45 PM
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Re: [jsaxton] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

A friend was teaching the first jump course. One guy in the course stepped out of the room to take a cell phone call while the emergency procedures were being taught.

That was the final straw for the instructor, after some poor attentiveness by the student previously.

Even other students in the class asked the instructor whether the guy should jump...


jackwallace  (Student)

Apr 30, 2010, 7:41 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are no bad students only bad teachers.
If you're student is too weak to pull the capewells send them home to lift weights and come back. Too fat, they have to be able to do 10 pull ups.
Not paying attention, be more interesting. Or make them take the course over.
Bull headed Polock, Jak za mas.
I've seen a paralyzed guy they put in the lake every jump.
Those are the ones that make teaching interesting. If everyone was perfect, you get bored out of your skull.


Inspired  (B 35971)

Apr 30, 2010, 10:40 PM
Post #14 of 69 (4645 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are no bad students only bad teachers.
If you're student is too weak to pull the capewells send them home to lift weights and come back. Too fat, they have to be able to do 10 pull ups.
Not paying attention, be more interesting. Or make them take the course over.
Bull headed Polock, Jak za mas.
I've seen a paralyzed guy they put in the lake every jump.
Those are the ones that make teaching interesting. If everyone was perfect, you get bored out of your skull.

Interesting viewpoint, considering this sport's emphasis on self-reliance/self-responsibility.

Just what responsibility does the student have in this learning process?


D22369  (D 22369)

May 1, 2010, 2:13 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Had one, it was a female about 40 yrs old with extreme ADD, after the training I always went about with what if scenarios with the students in a less formal manner than sitting in the classroom, absolutely nothing stuck with her, the other 4 in the class were your average students and did fine with the questions.
I brought it up with the dzo in private and we decided to offer her a tandem but declined to let her jump solo.

Roy


timmyfitz  (D License)

May 1, 2010, 5:00 AM
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Re: [jackwallace] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are no bad students only bad teachers.

Bullshit!


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 1, 2010, 6:51 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not remember ever turning a student away for being scared or performing poorly. Even with poor performance, there is always some other method of training or jump you can do with them (tandem i.e.) to keep them progressing and helping them along.

I have turned away 3 or 4 students in 28 years for being complete assholes who already know it all and are too arrogant to be bothered following the rules of the road. That is always a hard decision to make as well - even assholes have a right to jump i suppose, but i draw the line usually when no one on the dropzone wants to jump with them - that is always a good clue as to their ability to progress any further.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 1, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A friend was teaching the first jump course. One guy in the course stepped out of the room to take a cell phone call while the emergency procedures were being taught.

That was the final straw for the instructor, after some poor attentiveness by the student previously.

Even other students in the class asked the instructor whether the guy should jump...

.........................................................................

That is when I stand silently until he finishes his phone call.


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 1, 2010, 10:23 AM
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Re: [jackwallace] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you are just being sarcastic because that was really funny. Especially putting a paralyzed guy in a lake where he has a high probability of drowning.


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 1, 2010, 10:29 AM)


JohnnyMarko

May 1, 2010, 10:50 AM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great example at my DZ a few weekends ago...I had just gotten my 'A' and winds were a little squirly...I really wanted to get to 30 jumps that weekend but decided that jumping a student 260 loaded at about 0.7:1 probably wasn't smart so I grounded myself...3 friends were taking the FJC; texting, laughing during EP training, talking about how they wanted to B.A.S.E. jump Crazy...needless to say, the DZO wouldn't let them jump (winds were gusting too high for students anyway)...so what'd they do? Tried a different DZ in the area, and they weren't allowed to jump there either...


JohnDeere  (D License)

May 1, 2010, 11:02 AM
Post #21 of 69 (4502 views)
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Re: [jackwallace] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are no bad students only bad teachers.
If you're student is too weak to pull the capewells send them home to lift weights and come back. Too fat, they have to be able to do 10 pull ups.
Not paying attention, be more interesting. Or make them take the course over.
Bull headed Polock, Jak za mas.
I've seen a paralyzed guy they put in the lake every jump.
Those are the ones that make teaching interesting. If everyone was perfect, you get bored out of your skull.
Thats right! If you try hard enough you can always find someone else to blame.......Nothings ever your fault is it?Crazy


skybill  (D 6009)

May 1, 2010, 11:09 PM
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Re: [captain1976] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Cap,
Back in the S/L Daze I had a few that needed some "extra training" beside the class for their first jump. Other than that, no. On the other hand, trouble was once they leave the door an yer watchin', Jeeezz!!! Complete left style series.......before they got to the end of the static line!!! (BTW it was the standard length for anyone who wants to be a jokster!)


(This post was edited by skybill on May 1, 2010, 11:11 PM)


jackwallace  (Student)

May 2, 2010, 10:50 AM
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Re: [Inspired] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Interesting viewpoint, considering this sport's emphasis on self-reliance/self-responsibility.

Just what responsibility does the student have in this learning process?

What respnsiblity?
You hold there hand going out the door and in FF. Wave, shake, signal them to make every move. If they don't pull two people are there to do it for them and if that doesn't work you have a computer to do it. Then another baby sitter on a radio tells them to check their canopy, turn, turn. flair. Pretty soon someone will come up with an automated cutaway system so they don't need to do that.
Then you baby sit them through however many jumps so they are rock stable, turn, track.

To the person that:"bullshit" You prove my point about bad teachers.


jackwallace  (Student)

May 2, 2010, 10:53 AM
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Re: [toolbox] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hope you are just being sarcastic because that was really funny. Especially putting a paralyzed guy in a lake where he has a high probability of drowning.

Usually I am sarcastic, but they put the Quad out in Deland in the mid 70's. Wart gear and I know he made more than one jump. Can't remember what they hooked up for the reserve.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 2, 2010, 1:36 PM
Post #25 of 69 (4284 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Have you ever turned a student away? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hope you are just being sarcastic because that was really funny. Especially putting a paralyzed guy in a lake where he has a high probability of drowning.

.........................................................................

When you strap flotation gear on them the risk approaches zero.
For the critics ... you also have to teach them how to use flotation gear.


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