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wingsuit organization (A place of our own?)

 

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pms07  (D 7571)

Apr 4, 2010, 5:00 PM
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wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) Can't Post

From the wingsuit symposium minutes: "We might want to talk about creating a subset organization that would be a wingsuit community group, call it whatever, it could encompass all of this stuff, become a clearinghouse for everything coming from Europe, stuff from Flock U, the Grid, Jarno's method etc. Is it feasible having a centralized place where everything comes together and there's an organization? If we do pursue it, we have full support of the USPA. We could do things that complement other things.

"what interaction would this group have with USPA?"

"USPA could endorse some activities, or maybe not. Too early to tell. This was brought up with national directors. This may be a way to look at something differently. They're interested in this because they see the rift in the wingsuit community. It's hard to get all parties involved. "
Quote:

I'm late to say it but THANK YOU to DSE and others that organized the symposium during F&D! It was a great initiative to bring us together to discuss a variety of issues.

One of the final topics discussed raised the possibility of creating a separate wingsuit organization. There was not much time to ask questions or discuss because the meeting was near the end of our allotted time. So, I would like to hear more about the idea; any thoughts on goal or purpose of such an organization, how it would interact with USPA, how would it be resourced and function? Are we talking about an incorporated entity with elected directors? Staff? Mostly curious to see what others think, in particular the thoughts of those involved in discussion prior to F&D with USPA representatives. Where it says "full support of USPA"; is this something the USPA Board of Directors has discussed already?

pms


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Apr 4, 2010, 5:24 PM
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Re: [pms07] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Pat,
This is already underway, and as soon as some of the details actually are details, a vomit of info will be forthcoming.
Yes, the concept was discussed with a few BOD members and EC members prior to the symposium, just to be sure that it wouldn't be a problematic thing.
The goal is that there would be a collective voice of wingsuiters, so that USPA tar babies may be avoided in the future, particularly as we move into other sub-disciplines.


fmmobley  (D 29558)

Apr 5, 2010, 3:36 AM
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In reply to:
... so that USPA tar babies may be avoided in the future...

What does that mean? Who/what are the USPA tar babies?


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 5, 2010, 6:13 AM
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Re: [pms07] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From the wingsuit symposium minutes: "We might want to talk about creating a subset organization that would be a wingsuit community group, call it whatever, it could encompass all of this stuff, become a clearinghouse for everything coming from Europe, stuff from Flock U, the Grid, Jarno's method etc. Is it feasible having a centralized place where everything comes together and there's an organization? If we do pursue it, we have full support of the USPA. We could do things that complement other things.

"what interaction would this group have with USPA?"

"USPA could endorse some activities, or maybe not. Too early to tell. This was brought up with national directors. This may be a way to look at something differently. They're interested in this because they see the rift in the wingsuit community. It's hard to get all parties involved. "
Quote:

I'm late to say it but THANK YOU to DSE and others that organized the symposium during F&D! It was a great initiative to bring us together to discuss a variety of issues.

One of the final topics discussed raised the possibility of creating a separate wingsuit organization. There was not much time to ask questions or discuss because the meeting was near the end of our allotted time. So, I would like to hear more about the idea; any thoughts on goal or purpose of such an organization, how it would interact with USPA, how would it be resourced and function? Are we talking about an incorporated entity with elected directors? Staff? Mostly curious to see what others think, in particular the thoughts of those involved in discussion prior to F&D with USPA representatives. Where it says "full support of USPA"; is this something the USPA Board of Directors has discussed already?

pms

Many organizations sponsor SIGs (Special Interest Groups) under their umbrella. EAA comes to mind, with its warbird group, homebuilders group, aerobatics group, vintage group, etc.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 5, 2010, 7:59 AM
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Re: [kallend] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
From the wingsuit symposium minutes: "We might want to talk about creating a subset organization that would be a wingsuit community group, call it whatever, it could encompass all of this stuff, become a clearinghouse for everything coming from Europe, stuff from Flock U, the Grid, Jarno's method etc. Is it feasible having a centralized place where everything comes together and there's an organization? If we do pursue it, we have full support of the USPA. We could do things that complement other things.

"what interaction would this group have with USPA?"

"USPA could endorse some activities, or maybe not. Too early to tell. This was brought up with national directors. This may be a way to look at something differently. They're interested in this because they see the rift in the wingsuit community. It's hard to get all parties involved. "
Quote:

I'm late to say it but THANK YOU to DSE and others that organized the symposium during F&D! It was a great initiative to bring us together to discuss a variety of issues.

One of the final topics discussed raised the possibility of creating a separate wingsuit organization. There was not much time to ask questions or discuss because the meeting was near the end of our allotted time. So, I would like to hear more about the idea; any thoughts on goal or purpose of such an organization, how it would interact with USPA, how would it be resourced and function? Are we talking about an incorporated entity with elected directors? Staff? Mostly curious to see what others think, in particular the thoughts of those involved in discussion prior to F&D with USPA representatives. Where it says "full support of USPA"; is this something the USPA Board of Directors has discussed already?

pms

Many organizations sponsor SIGs (Special Interest Groups) under their umbrella. EAA comes to mind, with its warbird group, homebuilders group, aerobatics group, vintage group, etc.
It's really hard to read you post. I still don't know what are you replying to, what do you quote and what did you write....Crazy


lurch  (D 27583)

Apr 5, 2010, 8:17 AM
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Re: [DSE] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Uh, hey Spot, not that I want to come across as nitpicky or critical or anything, but is the "vomit of info" really the image you wish to convey? I understand the meaning, but it calls to mind a certain nausea and sort of implies that we might find the info to be somewhat nasty and indigestible. "Eww. What is that...halibut?" The product of the process described is usually the last thing anyone would want to absorb, or even look at for that matter. Tends to make one think of a certain type of mess someone else always gets stuck cleaning up, after.
-B


kallend  (D 23151)

Apr 5, 2010, 11:18 AM
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In reply to:
It's really hard to read you post. I still don't know what are you replying to, what do you quote and what did you write....Crazy

I wrote, in response to the thread title and the previous post:

Quote:
Many organizations sponsor SIGs (Special Interest Groups) under their umbrella. EAA comes to mind, with its warbird group, homebuilders group, aerobatics group, vintage group, etc.

So to amplify, EAA is the Experimental Aircraft Association. Under their umbrella there are Special Interest Groups (SIGs) for a variety of different interests.

So by extension, there's no reason that national or international skydiving organizations (like USPA or IPC) couldn't do the same.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Apr 5, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Re: [lurch] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Lurch, for that the excellent eloquence in communicative clarity. Tongue
Clarity is a _very_ important aspect of the goal we'd like to achieve.
There are 8 well-known wingsuiters working towards assembling the various pieces of their individual ideas that will create the initial framework of this communal organization.
Once that is complete, it'll be mass-presented to the community for input. We're somewhat close to achieving that first step. The huge variation in time zones makes it difficult to get everyone to the table at the same time. Soon we'll have mechanisms in place to aid in this process.
Once that's done, we'll collectively figure out how we'd like to be judged as a competitive community. Whether or not USPA (or any other body) accepts our competition results or not really doesn't matter. We have reason to believe they will, once this organization becomes tangible.
We can set our own "scores" based on a community-determined judging system, and they will stand as community-recognized events. We don't need Guiness or USPA, or anyone else to validate what we've already decided is the degree of discipline we want to invoke.
I'd rather have an "Atta Boy" from the majority of the wingsuit community than have a "well done" from an organization headed by former skydivers that haven't flown wingsuits and that might not have the time nor ability to learn more about the accurate history of our discipline. Respect from my peers is much more valuable, IMO, than having an outside group telling me how cool or scary our squirrel suits are.

For the moment, we're taking advice and direction from those that have started similar groups in skydiving as to how to properly build the foundation for this sort of "house" so that it can function well.

This isn't an overnight process because it needs to have lots of inputs, a mechanism for determining concensus and a democratic process, and a means of communicating to everyone. Facebook ain't gonna cut it.
We're also moving forward with a strong desire to respect, support, and be acceptable to wingsuiters, USPA and any other administrative body of skydivers worldwide.

If you'd like to offer help in building this house, please PM me.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 5, 2010, 12:10 PM
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Re: [kallend] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks!Cool


pms07  (D 7571)

Apr 5, 2010, 2:04 PM
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Re: [DSE] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pat,
This is already underway, and as soon as some of the details actually are details, a vomit of info will be forthcoming.
Yes, the concept was discussed with a few BOD members and EC members prior to the symposium, just to be sure that it wouldn't be a problematic thing.
The goal is that there would be a collective voice of wingsuiters, so that USPA tar babies may be avoided in the future, particularly as we move into other sub-disciplines.

DSE,

Thanks for the quick response. Sounds like a good goal though I'm at a loss to explain the "tar baby" question asked by Marion...Wink

I'm still curious about the USPA interaction piece, in particular in relation to Kallend's comments. I wonder how this might work in relation to the USPA and IPC so spent some time looking at the USPA governance manual today. As most know, the USPA Board does business with officers and an executive committee, standing committees, a HQ staff, and the exec committee can act between meetings as well. There is also a provision in the GM for a "task force", which as I understand it is a temporary working group whose role expires when the current board's term expires. Has any of that been discussed with USPA or is there a different mechanism that might be possible?

The language in the symposium minutes indicated that "we have the full support of USPA", and that's essentially how I recall it. Was that accurate cause I don't understand what USPA has or has not done?

I had not heard that the board or exec committee had considered the question of a separate wingsuit organization at their most recent meeting. Minutes of the meeting have not been posted yet however so I cannot see what all they considered and of course I was not there.

A couple of board members I asked about the issue had not heard of the initiative or that USPA had "supported it" either, thus my question. Of course there is no USPA support required, no approval or even consideration needed for this initiative... So was it more just an informal question to a couple of board members?

Beyond those questions, I guess maybe I should try to exercise some patience to learn more as those involved work the details and are able to get it out to the community. Okay, maybe just one more question; can you tell us the names of the 8 well-known wingsuiters involved. Thanks again.

pms


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Apr 5, 2010, 2:35 PM
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Re: [pms07] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Tar baby:
"A dummy made of tar, which cannot be struck without getting oneself hopelessly stuck to it--from the story "Mr. Rabbit and Mr. Fox" by Joe Harris, as told by his fictional narrator, Uncle Remus. "
"Tar baby" has become short hand for a situation better avoided than confronted.

It was a term used by one of the board members and I happen to have liked its application.

A group of people spoke prior to FnD, and then met at FnD to discuss how we'd like to provide a vehicle to move forward as a community. I'll leave it to the others to talk about their involvement.

When there is more to say, this forum will be the first place you'll likely hear whatever that may be.
If you'd like to help, we're glad to have it.


pms07  (D 7571)

Apr 5, 2010, 8:01 PM
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Re: [DSE] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE,
It's not a secret freemason type thing is it? I mean, at least letting folks know who has been involved in discussion prior to and at F&D seems a reasonable idea. Others may want to provide input or ask questions as you move forward.

Okay, I would like to help. How do I get started? I can PM you contact information or whatever is needed. Please advise...

Pat


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Apr 5, 2010, 9:12 PM
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Re: wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps an explanation is forthcoming but I would like to see a mission statement or at least what the intent of creating something like this is trying to achieve explained in more specific and detailed terms. At this point it sounds like another level of bureaucracy and or at worst a potential "clique-ish" club/pecking order to further one groups party line over another dissenting or opposite voices in the community.

After watching the events at the last BOD meeting, it is apparent that there are different camps involved in this and despite the grins and posturing from all involved, there is still underlying bad blood and grudges being held, yes, there is an elephant in the room people. I am not buying into the idea that creating a wingsuit organization is going to create a unified voice that will be heard by the ear of the USPA. The events of the last IPC meeting and the number of e-mails sent to the USPA and the subsequent statement made by the USPA indicates that individual voices are being heard and issues dealt with. I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying it's not broke. Creating an organization at this point sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

It's already been proven that we as a community can get together and discuss issues and the USPA has said they will provide a non biased arbitrator (BJ Worth) for lack of a better word, to listen to the opinions being expressed by all sides and allow a venue for everyones ideas to be heard equally so that the USPA is not ignorant of all the fact when presented with a wingsuit related topic that requires their action. This is what is supposed to happen at the next BOD meeting in Boston in fact.

Don't get me wrong, there are very few people here who have been pushing for support and recognition of the discipline longer than I have. But until a more detailed explanation is put forth, this creation of an organization sounds like more bureaucratic red tape and political maneuvering being introduced into the already drama ridden story.


peggs82  (C 36427)

Apr 5, 2010, 10:31 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Scotts above post...

x2

There are USPA Board members...who I vote for...in elections. Thats about all the stomach I have for political maneuvering.

Believe me, I would have much rather discussed this in the meeting at flock and dock, than to have it dropped in the last 8 mins 28secs of the meeting with no elaboration, names of sponsors or supporters, or details.

If I had to "verbal vomit" a wingsuit organization, it would be this:

I would imagine a group of people who, if they cared enough, would go to a meeting with an arbiter from our already existing governing body, where we would talk about issues. In these meetings we would have well laid out agendas. We would get together and revise as we have already demonstrated we can do, and then we would see if we could all agree to take it to committee (which we have also already done)

Oh wait...the USPA all ready proposed just such a idea. Tell John Hancock to put not sign just yet Tongue

Just because there was/is a disagreement over the issue of ONE type of record category, does not mean that I (for example) disagree with you over any other issue in wingsuiting.

Adding bureaucracy to this situation would be like cutting off my foot because I stubbed a toe.


pms07  (D 7571)

Apr 8, 2010, 8:32 PM
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Re: [DSE] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

That this thread has generated only a few responses should be no real surprise. Most skydivers seem to avoid the political end of our sport and would rather just skydive. That's mostly how it works in the USPA anyway. A wingsuit organization, after perhaps some initial enthusiasm, would likely be the same.

Anyway, I’ve thought more about a separate wingsuit organization and at this point don’t believe this is the best way for the wingsuit community to move forward. Here’s why:

At this point the goals are not well defined, at least publicly, and the proponents are mostly unknown. To build consensus requires an open and inclusive effort but some will likely conclude that is not the case.

I would like to hear how such an organization would unify us as a community and build consensus. Really, I mean specifically. Consensus and respect from our peers are built through effective communication, compromise, negotiation and respect for the opinions of others, even if you disagree. The scarcity of all that is what brings us to this point, not the absence of a governing wingsuit organization.

Consensus is not built by creating a new club. In fact, we already have the mechanism and structure in place to move our discipline forward…and that is USPA. While some may not agree with everything the USPA had done, me included, the board of directors has been responsive to the wingsuit community.

USPA board meetings are open to all, agendas and minutes are published, and real procedures already exist to support us in a structured environment.

It’s also unclear how a separate organization might interact with the USPA and this is an important consideration in relation to internationally sanctioned competition, records, and safety issues. While some may not care about that aspect, others do (remember, we are being inclusive…).

In fact, the two opposing perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Want to organize a night, backflying, 3d, docked, community recognized but “unofficial” record bigway? You can do it tonight and nothing the USPA or IPC does now, or might do in the future, takes away from the effort. And, nothing a separate wingsuit organization might do is needed for you to organize that record as well.

So, we can already do community recognized events, set our own scores, and figure out how we want to be judged.

Likewise, nothing the USPA or IPC can or will do stops us from determining consensus in relation to "official" national or world records. In fact, those organizations provide the environment for just that with established parliamentary procedure. We just need to participate in a collegial manner.

Some may perceive the USPA as headed by “former skydivers” but it’s really not a fair characterization. Go to a board of directors meeting, as some here have done, and get to know the board members. They are skydivers, pretty much just like wingsuit flyers. Really, what we do in the sky is not brain surgery and we can explain it easily to other experienced skydivers that have yet to be “converted”. Just as the RW community did in 70s, just as the CRW community did in the 80s, just as the FF community did in the 90s.

And I still don’t understand how we have the full support of the USPA for a separate organization as suggested earlier. Can that be explained more fully?

USPA offered us an option to have a neutral party mediate our differences and help build consensus. I don’t know if that offer is still on the table but, if it is, we should accept. And there is probably no on more qualified to fill the role than BJ Worth.

pms


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Apr 8, 2010, 9:05 PM
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Re: [pms07] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the lack of response is that folks want to know what they're considering before they make comment?

Since nothing has been put out there yet in terms of the goals and direction, I'd imagine folks want to know more before making up their mind about something.
I know I'd like at least a *few* facts before deciding in favor or against *any* issue, wouldn't you?


(This post was edited by DSE on Apr 8, 2010, 9:09 PM)


fmmobley  (D 29558)

Apr 9, 2010, 4:18 AM
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In reply to:
Maybe the lack of response is that folks want to know what they're considering before they make comment?...

My lack of response has been because I think it is a silly idea. We don't need more organizations, especially ones created as a result of a rift in our community.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 9, 2010, 5:39 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Maybe the lack of response is that folks want to know what they're considering before they make comment?...

My lack of response has been because I think it is a silly idea. We don't need more organizations, especially ones created as a result of a rift in our community.
Wrong. We need the organization of the organized! Pirate


mccordia  (D 94775)

Apr 9, 2010, 5:57 AM
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Without going into this whole subject, a lot of comments seem centered around the USPA and USA.

I could see an initiative that just tries to see what is happening on a more global scale, only researching, playing and activly developing ideas that can be put forth to excisting gouverning bodies once there is a finanilzed idea that actually works, regarding any specific subdicipline within wingsuit flying.

There is more than non-linked bigways to look at, using open en non-restrictive methods allowing full community input, feedback and development.


peggs82  (C 36427)

Apr 9, 2010, 11:56 AM
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wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

I could only hope to be as eloquent as pat one day. I especially like the following:

In reply to:
"I would like to hear how such an organization would unify us as a community and build consensus. Really, I mean specifically. Consensus and respect from our peers are built through effective communication, compromise, negotiation and respect for the opinions of others, even if you disagree. The scarcity of all that is what brings us to this point, not the absence of a governing wingsuit organization.

Consensus is not built by creating a new club."

I really wonder sometimes this knee jerk reaction to 1 element of disagreement? Has anyone even bothered to have a dialogue about ANYTHING else in this discipline (and actually keep it on that topic - through a clear and enforced published agenda)?
-Maybe some headway could be made where we might find some common ground?
-Maybe we would move forward in getting OTHER RECORD CATEGORIES recognized?
-Or maybe we might find some people have more knowledge and experience than themselves in organizing such dives? - I've never organized a docked naked rodeo record, I'd listen to purple mike...or do enough of them myself that I would have real data to talk about.

nahh...that sounds too smart and civilized...lets just create a new club... Take our ball and go somewhere else!

Can we get a list of names already? Maybe something a bit more specific than "8 well respected wingsuiters"...
- Wait no - can we have them actually speak for themselves rather than a list?
- What are their credentials? Other than agreeing with you?
- Did you bother to even invite people who disagree with you to be in on the ground floor of this?

Going with that thread. Can we have the mystery members of the BOD and EC go on record and detail exactly what they discussed and agreed to? Especially important if the name and standing of the USPA is being invoked!

Again I wil ask, how is this any different than going through our ACTUAL GOVERNING BODIES??
-The USPA has offered an arbiter before (WS instruction, BSR), and has offered one now...
-The FAI set up a FORUM to have the community heard on Unlinked bigway - as I immagine they would in the future.

These are very simple questions to answer, and do not require my full knowledge of the organization. So please don't tell us to "wait for the full announcement"

PS -
Quote:
Without going into this whole subject, a lot of comments seem centered around the USPA and USA.

Fine...substitute FAI/IPC for USPA...all of these comments still hold true. Elected members and directors who govern the competition/standards of our sport.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Apr 9, 2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
nahh...that sounds too smart and civilized...lets just create a new club... Take our ball and go somewhere else!

Look around on a typical playground, and you see several kids playing several games. And if people like one...they join in.

The frustration sets in for some when people take everyone's ball, and demand they only play their game...

People play different games...unless you have a few serious bullies around, who decide their game is the only thing that should be played..

Quote:
Again I wil ask, how is this any different than going through our ACTUAL GOVERNING BODIES??

Who says this will be a governing body?
Geez...I don't know half about this whole thing going on, but about 20 times more than you know, and even Im refraining from comments, input and actual conversations until the full details are clear and posted, and I actually KNOW what Im talking about..

You're trashing an idea/concept of something you dont seem to have a single clue about, in terms of the actual intent or methods of working...
Lighten up dude.....breathe a little....write the essays after someones had a chance to present their idea...

Or is there only a limited group allowed to take initiative in getting their ideas accepted?

If 20 people create their own organisation, it shows there are 20 different ideas people seem to think are worth lining up behind.
If groups share ideas..they'll merge at some point..

Allow people that room to develop and investigate..

Quote:
Maybe we would move forward in getting OTHER RECORD CATEGORIES recognized?

How about not doing that..
How about first figuring out WHAT we are trying to get recognized, before we impose more rules and demands on sub-disciplines that are still in its infancy....Whats the rush?

If we dont get the bigway formation stuff sorted within IPC this year.
Next year can bring a new presentation, with other advisers. Or the year after that. Or the year after that....at some point we'll figure it out...be it now or in 5 years.

Development should be the only intent..and all the records and acceptance in organizations should not follow untill the concept is finalized within our own discipline.

Where do you see artistic rules submitted for acceptance..nowhere..
Where do you see GPS comp rules submitted for acceptance...nowhere..

Appreciation outside our discipline and Acceptance outside our discipline are two different things....hope we can first work on appreciation, by trying to figure out what we want to show, in order to get that acceptance..


Its a lot more fun to work on this stuff, without a timer ticking, telling you to hurry up...


peggs82  (C 36427)

Apr 9, 2010, 2:27 PM
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Re: [mccordia] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You're trashing an idea/concept of something you dont seem to have a single clue about, in terms of the actual intent or methods of working...
Lighten up dude.....breathe a little....write the essays after someones had a chance to present their idea...

How deliciously ironic... getting mad at me for inconveniencing you with simple questions before you actually make a proposal!!

I just want to know whats going on "before the camel gets its nose under the tent!!!" Wink

Its already been admitted that, "the concept was discussed with a few BOD members and EC members prior to the symposium"...So who knows what and how it is going to be sold, and to whom..

Quote:
Who says this will be a governing body?

Your ringleader...
"Whether or not USPA (or any other body) accepts our competition results or not really doesn't matter. We have reason to believe they will, once this organization becomes tangible. "

Creating competitions, along with the rules and regs for them...sounds pretty governing to me..

Quote:
Where do you see artistic rules submitted for acceptance..nowhere..
Where do you see GPS comp rules submitted for acceptance...nowhere..

Why not???
-Artistic- You have been running a artistic comp for 2.5 years now. You've had wide participation, and no other alternative camps have challenged the validity of what you do.. why not focus, actually write down some concrete rules and submit it? After your performance at the last comp, I would gladly call your team the International best, and have it be a FAI or Italian record.
-GPS- Whenever its convient to argue suit performance, everyone tells you to go to tracking derby....why not submit those rules for acceptance?? I would gladly follow those rules and try for a record.

I would be happy to see someone who has been running this stuff for a few years put up a proposal, even if it is "imperfect". I would gladly take that over wallowing on it for 5-10 years with no progress towards acceptance.

Quote:
Its a lot more fun to work on this stuff, without a timer ticking, telling you to hurry up...

No its a lot more fun DOING this stuff FOR REAL, without people telling you that their theoretical ideas are better...


mccordia  (D 94775)

Apr 9, 2010, 3:42 PM
Post #23 of 55 (2204 views)
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Re: [peggs82] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why not???
-Artistic- You have been running a artistic comp for 2.5 years now. You've had wide participation, and no other alternative camps have challenged the validity of what you do.. why not focus, actually write down some concrete rules and submit it? After your performance at the last comp, I would gladly call your team the International best, and have it be a FAI or Italian record.

Because you dont know of other competitions, doesnt mean there srent others.
Theres one in Brisbane in a few days, theres the birman challange..

Why all this frustrated ego driven need to claim inventing/pioneering things and label it records.
Give it time..

You think the rules are fine..I see many improvements possible every year.
Once there is a set of rules thats more widely used due to it working...than its time for a next step.

This whole 'lets get something labeled a record/system/rule and fix it later...'
I prefer first gettings things right, and than taking the next step.

Wish you'd also open up more, and work WITH people or at least listen..instead of these constant spindoctor politics that go so far even USPA BOD reps tell you to take it down a notch..

Take it easy....its not World War 3...stop turning everything not alligned with your ideas snd vision into a personal attack...

Just because you are in a rush to push everything through doesnt mean the rest has to run with you..


peggs82  (C 36427)

Apr 9, 2010, 4:59 PM
Post #24 of 55 (2185 views)
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Re: [mccordia] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Once there is a set of rules thats more widely used due to it working...than its time for a next step.

Yep...thats why the US, Australia, and South Africa adopted a record category in the first place. Once people start doing them...they can be refined. No arguments there.


Quote:
I prefer first gettings things right, and than taking the next step.
How do you propose to do that? Photoshop?


Quote:
and work WITH people
Yep...done that too. Ask zach and andreea.

Quote:
politics that go so far even USPA BOD reps tell you to take it down a notch.
Funny Jarno...i didn't see you at the USPA BOD meeting? But if your referring to my vocal displeasure over the assertion that "record spacing is unsafe"...well then yes..I do still object to that baseless allegation.


peggs82  (C 36427)

Apr 9, 2010, 5:49 PM
Post #25 of 55 (2173 views)
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Re: [peggs82] wingsuit organization (A place of our own?) [In reply to] Can't Post

All I've ever cared about on here was calling people out on BS and not letting them get away with making this forum their soapbox... I never claimed to invent anything.

I'll also add this...

All anyone in your "axis of evil" wanted to do here was to organize great skydives, allow wingsuiters to demonstrate the peak of their skill, and to have those achievements recognized.

How do you do that? One way is records.

Look at any bigway prior to 2008...then look at 2008 and 2009. Tell me those achievements are not worthy of recognition. If you don't think that it was not a paradigm shift in demonstrated skill level, then I don't know what impresses you. Those participants deserve recognition - both internal and external.

No one ever sought this battle. It was started right here on dropzone.com by people who thought there was some power grab going on.

Look who's grabbing for power now.


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