Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Spring refresher training for TIs

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 24, 2010, 10:06 AM
Post #1 of 26 (2400 views)
Shortcut
Spring refresher training for TIs Can't Post

Tandem Instructors only please.

This poll is really only relevant at DZs where the last snow just melted off the runway.

How much refresher training do you do after the winter lay-off?
Grab the next student and walk to the airplane?
A quick jump with a senior jumper strapped to your chest?
Do you use supplemental (cutaway and reserve ripcord) handles on the student harness?
A brief review on the ground?
A lengthy review in a formal classroom setting?
Two or three refresher jumps, progressively more challenging, concluding with (no drogue) tandem terminal with the "student trying to throw you unstable?
Does a Tandem Examiner supervise your refresher training?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 24, 2010, 10:15 AM
Post #2 of 26 (2354 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

My plan is to do 3 jumps on my own gear followed by one tandem with a senior jumper. Yes we will wear the chicken handles.


MartinOlsson  (D 13229)

Mar 24, 2010, 11:27 AM
Post #3 of 26 (2323 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

Some EP training and 1-2 jumps with a senior jumper.

/Martin


skydivingchad  (D 28984)

Mar 24, 2010, 12:42 PM
Post #4 of 26 (2297 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I do a minimum of 1 jump on my personal rig, this year I will have done 4 jumps.
I look over all the training information from when I got my rating and watch the video again.
I then do a jump with an experienced jumper with the chicken handles attached and the victim, (volunteer) trained on how to use them.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 24, 2010, 4:31 PM
Post #5 of 26 (2231 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivingchad] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

You really think a "trained" experienced jumper is better apt to handle EP's than you? What could you possibly be afraid of?

Im all for doing refreshers until you feel comfortable, but giving control of the system to a skydiver without a tandem rating, really? Why?


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Mar 24, 2010, 4:57 PM
Post #6 of 26 (2224 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet it would be hard to recruit experienced jumpers if you didn't offer them chicken handles!


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 24, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #7 of 26 (2223 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never had a problem. What do they know about the tandem system? If they want chicken handles, sorry, find someone else.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 24, 2010, 5:40 PM
Post #8 of 26 (2211 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I know someone who pulled the chicken handle when the TM wasn't taking care of business. Admitedly it was during phase II and not a refresher, but it happened. I would like to believe that that certainly would never happen to me, but hubris has killed more than one skydiver.


JohnDeere  (D License)

Mar 24, 2010, 6:29 PM
Post #9 of 26 (2197 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I bet it would be hard to recruit experienced jumpers if you didn't offer them chicken handles!

+1 Im not getting on without them!Smile If you dont trust me me with two damn handles....then find another suckerWink


chris74  (No 568073)

Mar 24, 2010, 10:22 PM
Post #10 of 26 (2153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

hello Birds ,
Solo jumps + EP's drill + 1 TJ and my Bro inboard ( no chicken handle for me too : too risky for the pair )
Blue skies and get a safe and good season
Chris " taz "


(This post was edited by chris74 on Mar 24, 2010, 10:23 PM)


feuergnom  (D License)

Mar 25, 2010, 3:28 AM
Post #11 of 26 (2130 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

at least one jump with I/E, lenghty ground review/brief - I/E will surely dish out some tasks to handle on ground and in air

as for the chicken handles: afaik they are mandatory on strongs - and i see no good reason for NOT using them


peek  (D 8884)

Mar 25, 2010, 4:56 AM
Post #12 of 26 (2121 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You really think a "trained" experienced jumper is better apt to handle EP's than you?

They would be if something unusual happened, like, I was incapacitated for some reason.

It is also probably a good idea to have an experienced jumper on front that can actually reach the drogue handle instead of just taking the smallest person you can find.

Problems on jumps like this are rare, but can happen.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 25, 2010, 6:57 AM
Post #13 of 26 (2096 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peek] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

Well anything CAN happen, but lets get real. If getting incapacitated is a real concern on your recurrency, why not "train" every first time jumper and give them chicken handles.

If you want this kind of sefety, go seek out an IE to do your recurrency. Are people coming out of comas and doing tandem the next day? Where does this incapacitaed fear come from? Do people live in constant fear of tandems, or do they prepare themselves and take responsibility to pull the handles and safely return the passenger to the ground.

A tandem is not just another skydive, but you are supposed to be a professional. If you want that sort of assurance someone is going to save you, seek out an appropriate person to give you your warm fuzzy feeling.


jenkincb00  (D 26959)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:09 AM
Post #14 of 26 (2088 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well anything CAN happen, but lets get real. If getting incapacitated is a real concern on your recurrency, why not "train" every first time jumper and give them chicken handles.

If you want this kind of sefety, go seek out an IE to do your recurrency. Are people coming out of comas and doing tandem the next day? Where does this incapacitaed fear come from? Do people live in constant fear of tandems, or do they prepare themselves and take responsibility to pull the handles and safely return the passenger to the ground.

A tandem is not just another skydive, but you are supposed to be a professional. If you want that sort of assurance someone is going to save you, seek out an appropriate person to give you your warm fuzzy feeling.

I go through all the tandem material, I go through all tandem fatalities from the beginning of tandems (read them, interesting that like 98% of them have been operator error, not equipment), go through EP's and do a refresher with another strong TI.

I do use the chicken handles but its not for my sense of security its for the "experienced" person's sense of security. Its for their warm fuzzy feeling, and the fact that I'm taking them on a recurrency jump means they are qualified to cutaway and deploy a reserve so compairing them to a student and saying that if you use chicken handles for recurrency jumps you should train all students how to cut away and deploy a reserve is just stupid and seems like you're being argumentive just to be argumentive.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:16 AM
Post #15 of 26 (2086 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jenkincb00] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I guess I am being a bit argumentative. It's just recurrency or not, I believe the instructor needs to have complete confidence in his or her abilities, and giving an untrained, uncertified person the ability to put your rig out of sequence does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

In the end, it will probably never amount to anything, and I respect your logic of it being for the passengers piece of mind. The people who fear being incapacitated as a reason to put chicken handles, I question whether they have the right mindset for doing tandems


jenkincb00  (D 26959)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:32 AM
Post #16 of 26 (2082 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to be able to pull the ripcord for the main, but I always put the student ripcord on their harness...do you disagree with that also?

I do know a couple TI's that don't believe students should have ripcords.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:40 AM
Post #17 of 26 (2079 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jenkincb00] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm only sigma rated, so they have access to a main handle. I train them on it, but control their hands. I do a practice touch, but bring their hand back with mine. I have had many students try to pull, and have gotten very quick with protecting my handle, but the risk of out of sequence from that one handle is extremely low with the sigma. On opening, I also put my hands on the students upper arms to protect my cutaway and reserve.

On a strong, is the student ripcord an option for the instructor when it is hooked up on them? Is it on the same side as the instructor handle or the other side?


jenkincb00  (D 26959)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:45 AM
Post #18 of 26 (2075 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

the student handle is on the same side as the instructor handle...there are a couple clipping points for the handle but the most popular (at least as far as I have seen and use) is on the students right hip. The instructors ripcord is on the right shoulder of rig.

On a seperate note, I try not to touch student's hands...makes it less likely that they will touch/grab mine.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:52 AM
Post #19 of 26 (2071 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jenkincb00] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

Is incapacitation a concern on a rig where you can't deploy the main from the left side?

And I have yet to see someone who can get my hands when I grab the back of theirs, but everyone has their method.


jenkincb00  (D 26959)

Mar 25, 2010, 8:05 AM
Post #20 of 26 (2066 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess incapacitation on any rig would be a concern, but I don't worry about it on every jump any more than I worry about only being able to deploy my main on my mirage on one side.

And the hands...its not about when you actually get them, its when you go to get their hands and they get you instead. Wink


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 25, 2010, 9:45 AM
Post #21 of 26 (2038 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... And I have yet to see someone who can get my hands when I grab the back of theirs, but everyone has their method. "

.....................................................................

Ah!
The arrogance of youth!

Do you mean like the 13 year-old-girl who got a death grip on my left thumb, as we roared through opening altitude, back in 1987? Remember that this scary incident occurred long before Cypres was invented.
Or like the lady who got a firm grip on both my biceps in drogue-fall, last year?
Or the hundred other students who have tried to grab my arms over the years?
I survived all those incidents through my superior strength and my quick reactions. My survival had nothing to do with management.
Depending upon superior strength and skills is a fool's errand.
I prefer to manage problems long before they can occur. Managing risks involves reading dozens of fatality reports and listening to "no shit, there is was" stories from TIs (like me) who have survived their own stupidity.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Mar 25, 2010, 10:17 AM)


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Mar 25, 2010, 9:51 AM
Post #22 of 26 (2033 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

This is where the Internet fails to translate. In person I would gladly have this conversation. Getting my hands grabbed is one of my biggest concerns. My method of controlling them before they can control you has served me well for my first 3000 or so tandems. I think about it on every jump. Most of the things I do revolve around never letting them get at me.

I am still learning, like the girl who was double jointed in get shoulders. But to call me arrogant is an insult.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 25, 2010, 9:55 AM
Post #23 of 26 (2032 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnny1488] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
I'm only sigma rated...
"
........................................................................

That would explain your narrow attitude.

While chicken handles may be optional on Sigmas, they are MANDATORY on all training and refresher dives done on Strongs.
To rephrase: if you do a TI refresher dive on a Strong - without chicken handles - you just scored ZERO!

To look at it from another angle, Parachutes de France takes chicken handles so seriously, that they permanently sew the Velcro (for chicken handles) to the shoulders of their tandem student harnesses.

To clarify, most tandem manufacturers encourage/demand/insist on chicken handles during TI training dives, but real students should never see chicken handles.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner
CSPA Rigger Examiner


NVizABull

Mar 27, 2010, 9:50 AM
Post #24 of 26 (1939 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnDeere] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

AGREED!

I went on plenty of jumps with my ex as the passenger when he was refreshing and always had chicken handles and always checking/touching handles as part of his/my piece of mind that if anything did happen, I was trained and prepared to handle the situation.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 3, 2010, 5:23 AM
Post #25 of 26 (1843 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Spring refresher training for TIs [In reply to] Can't Post

 
At one DZ I jump at one is just expected to be current. Do the 90-day refresher jump w. an experienced jumper (>100 jumps) and that's OK.

At another DZ the DZO, who is pretty conservative, also has a spring tandem instructor meeting (as well as a meeting for other instructors, the videographers, etc.). (Hint to riggerrob: DZO's first name is Joe.)

At both DZ's one pays slots plus a significant tandem gear rental fee for the refresher jump. (The fee isn't that much different than what I saw at a ratings school in Z-hills lately though.)

The DZO is a tandem instructor so he usually supervises the session, although sometimes some senior tandem instructor at the DZ might organize parts of it.

In the meeting we watch the ancient UPT tandem training video again. Technically we're supposed to see it every 6 months but for those of us who have seen it a few times, it gets rather boring. A lot of it is pretty antiquated, or no longer applicable to the Sigma we jump.

We also write the tandem instructor tests again and correct them. It really isn't bad to review all that stuff every year. (Various non-applicable non-Sigma questions are edited out). The DZO keeps the tests so he's got proof that his staff have had annual recurrent training.

Chicken handles? We made some up but many of us don't bother for the currency jump.

During the meeting we also talk over tandem issues, and in the past I've often put together all of the DZ's tandem related incident reports and anecdotes from the previous year to use as discussion material.

By the end of the meeting it has probably degenerated into the usual arguing about manifest, pay, tandem policies, and so on. :)

All the spring meetings are a bother, and the DZO does stretch things out longer than necessary, including things we instructors don't feel are important. Still, having some sort of spring instructor meeting to all get together and discuss issues and policies is something I like to see.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Tandem Skydiving

 


Search for (options)