Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland

 


skydiverek  (C 952)

Mar 22, 2010, 2:20 PM
Post #1 of 21 (6806 views)
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---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland Can't Post

 
It is an important piece of information, unfortuately it is burried in the other thread, in the Incident forum. Here are quick links to these important posts:

Accident here:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3817893#3817893


Official government ban notice here:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3824882#3824882





skydiverek  (C 952)

Mar 23, 2010, 5:06 AM
Post #2 of 21 (6437 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Let me add that this ban was caused by the FATAL accident, where jumper wore Argus AAD.


Mr.B  (B License)

Mar 23, 2010, 8:45 AM
Post #3 of 21 (6284 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

It's also worth mentioning, that in Poland, AADs are not required for licensed skydivers (in non tandem rigs). I'm afraid, that this ban will lead to a situation, where many current Argus owners will at least start the season (soon to be opened) without any AAD Crazy


cheers,
Bart Wink


Unstable  (D 28930)

Mar 27, 2010, 10:02 PM
Post #4 of 21 (5678 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Hmm, I've read the test reports, the quality docs, and about everything I can about the Argus. I even jump on in my rigs. I certainly hope that this issue is resolved quickly -Statistically, I would be willing to bet that probability of an injury/fatality is independent for type of AAD. I've recommended Argus's to fellow jumpers as a viable alternative and I'm going to have my tail between my legs if this proves to be a significant defect in the quality of the product.

Either way, I'd love to get my hands on all available data and do a full statistical analysis on the fact. I would enjoy that immensely.


skydiverek  (C 952)

Apr 20, 2010, 2:08 PM
Post #5 of 21 (5237 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Argus cutters manufactured Jan-Oct 2007 were grounded in France yesterday:

Original doc: http://www.ffp.asso.fr/IMG/pdf/CS_181.pdf

Google translation: http://translate.google.com/...&sl=fr&tl=en





dzjunky77  (A License)

Apr 20, 2010, 11:42 PM
Post #6 of 21 (5128 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

any updates?


skydiverek  (C 952)

Apr 21, 2010, 12:45 AM
Post #7 of 21 (5102 views)
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Re: [dzjunky77] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
any updates?

No more updates in Poland as of now.


dorbie

Apr 22, 2010, 3:34 PM
Post #8 of 21 (4860 views)
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Re: [Mr.B] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's also worth mentioning, that in Poland, AADs are not required for licensed skydivers (in non tandem rigs). I'm afraid, that this ban will lead to a situation, where many current Argus owners will at least start the season (soon to be opened) without any AAD Crazy


cheers,
Bart Wink

Well in that case this has to be the dumbest decision I've seen in a while. It could lead to more fatalities in the short term.

There's no question an ARGUS is better than nothing, you could ban the sale or installation in new rigs, and allow existing use to be grandfathered in for some period or until the issue is addressed.

Just another example of idiots and their "safety" pantomime.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 22, 2010, 3:40 PM
Post #9 of 21 (4849 views)
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Re: [dorbie] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

>There's no question an ARGUS is better than nothing

If, when it fires, it traps the closing loop as investigators have speculated, it would not be better than nothing.

Imagine losing awareness completely, having your AAD fire - and then realizing that it not only didn't work, but has now locked your reserve container closed. That would sort of be the very definition of "worse than nothing" and would in fact guarantee your death.


dorbie

Apr 22, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #10 of 21 (4837 views)
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Re: [billvon] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>There's no question an ARGUS is better than nothing

If, when it fires, it traps the closing loop as investigators have speculated, it would not be better than nothing.

Imagine losing awareness completely, having your AAD fire - and then realizing that it not only didn't work, but has now locked your reserve container closed. That would sort of be the very definition of "worse than nothing" and would in fact guarantee your death.

Not on my rig, and I don't need some pencil pusher making that decision for me.

You do make a good point but it ignores probability in pursuit of that point.

Someone you love is burning through their AAD firing altitude wearing an Argus equipped rig with nothing out. You have no other information. Would you want that Argus turned on or not?

I think that's an easy decision.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 22, 2010, 8:18 PM
Post #11 of 21 (4809 views)
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Re: [dorbie] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

>Not on my rig, and I don't need some pencil pusher making that
>decision for me.

Good thing you don't jump in Poland, then!

Here in the US the process would be a little more byzantine - a serious safety problem would present itself, rig manufacturers would decide that it wasn't worth the risk of being sued and de-approve the AAD for use in their rig. After the next repack cycle riggers wouldn't be able to legally pack them in those rigs. In which case you'd also have a pencil pusher making that decision for you.


Mr.B  (B License)

Apr 23, 2010, 2:04 AM
Post #12 of 21 (4734 views)
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Re: [billvon] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If, when it fires, it traps the closing loop as investigators have speculated, it would not be better than nothing.

Imagine losing awareness completely, having your AAD fire - and then realizing that it not only didn't work, but has now locked your reserve container closed. That would sort of be the very definition of "worse than nothing" and would in fact guarantee your death.

Yeah - but how plausible is to survive a jump after you "activate" your reserve after an AAD fire (we are talking about argus standard mode, which is roughly an equivalent of cypres pro mode). You just have a 2 maybe 3 seconds after an AAD fire (that didn't cut the loop). If you look at the reports of Cypres activations, most of them happen to people that don't do anything to pull their reserve or main chute. I'd say, that if someone doesn't pull untill aad fire, most probably they won't do it at all. Even then, many of the skydivers, when "surprised" with low altitude, their first reaction is often to pull the main (one can look for argus activation reports, to see some examples). The chances that you'll get saved by Argus are still much greater than the chances that you'll get killed by it.


cheers,
Bart Tongue


rhys  (D 95)

Apr 23, 2010, 2:50 AM
Post #13 of 21 (4716 views)
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Re: [billvon] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Imagine losing awareness completely, having your AAD fire - and then realizing that it not only didn't work, but has now locked your reserve container closed. That would sort of be the very definition of "worse than nothing" and would in fact guarantee your death.

That is a window of a few seconds, I would rather the Argus, they have saved people.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 23, 2010, 8:32 AM
Post #14 of 21 (4642 views)
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Re: [rhys] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Imagine losing awareness completely, having your AAD fire - and then realizing that it not only didn't work, but has now locked your reserve container closed. That would sort of be the very definition of "worse than nothing" and would in fact guarantee your death.

That is a window of a few seconds, I would rather the Argus, they have saved people.

Agreed.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 23, 2010, 10:22 AM
Post #15 of 21 (4608 views)
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Re: [Mr.B] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

>The chances that you'll get saved by Argus are still much greater than the
>chances that you'll get killed by it.

Probably true - PROVIDED the problem seen here is not indicative of a systematic problem. If it is, and many of the cutters can exhibit the same problem, then the odds of it killing you become much higher.

Might be a good thing to investigate.


dorbie

Apr 23, 2010, 12:02 PM
Post #16 of 21 (4583 views)
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Re: [billvon] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Not on my rig, and I don't need some pencil pusher making that
>decision for me.

Good thing you don't jump in Poland, then!

Here in the US the process would be a little more byzantine - a serious safety problem would present itself, rig manufacturers would decide that it wasn't worth the risk of being sued and de-approve the AAD for use in their rig. After the next repack cycle riggers wouldn't be able to legally pack them in those rigs. In which case you'd also have a pencil pusher making that decision for you.

My jumping in the USA will not repair this dangerous decision in Poland.

Sometimes the only thing that saves people from the insipid will of beaurocracy is the moribund processes of the same entities.

I expect you have an answer to my question but chose not to reveal it.

Loved one + Argus + nopull + firing altitude. On or off?

This highlights the problem with this decision for many jumpers in Poland who's next skydive will cost them $2000 v. $20 depending on the decision that has been thrust upon them.

They won't be able to sell their ARGUS locally and will probably hold out for some correction of the problem so it's a safe bet many who stay active will opt for the $20 jump.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 26, 2010, 8:40 AM
Post #17 of 21 (4414 views)
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Re: [dorbie] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

>Loved one + Argus + nopull + firing altitude. On or off?

With current problem - off. (Removed actually)
If problem is solved - on.

>They won't be able to sell their ARGUS locally and will probably hold out for
>some correction of the problem so it's a safe bet many who stay active will
>opt for the $20 jump.

Good for them!


BrianM  (D 661)

Apr 26, 2010, 3:09 PM
Post #18 of 21 (4335 views)
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Re: [billvon] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Loved one + Argus + nopull + firing altitude. On or off?

With current problem - off. (Removed actually)
If problem is solved - on.

Really?

If I haven't pulled anything by 820 feet, the odds that I will smarten up and pull something in time to matter is pretty small. Multiply that probability by the probability of the cutter jamming the loop to get the probability of the AAD killing me. I'd say that probability is small, while the odds of the AAD working and saving me are fairly large.


jb88ci  (B License)

Apr 27, 2010, 11:01 AM
Post #19 of 21 (4210 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

i have a new argus in my rig. Since there hasn't been alot on this to read, I contacted Aviacom to ask what the latest outcomes are etc.

Karl responded to me and stated that Aviacom is meeting with the polish government next week.

He stated that the polish gov't feels that if there is a cutter error when mounted on top of the reserve pc it may interfere with the reserve deployment.

Guess thats all there is right now other than the documents posted on their website.


dorbie

May 9, 2010, 8:46 PM
Post #20 of 21 (3905 views)
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Re: [BrianM] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Loved one + Argus + nopull + firing altitude. On or off?

With current problem - off. (Removed actually)
If problem is solved - on.

Really?

Says it all really, thankfully we each get to make our own decisions.... unless you're in Poland.


skydiverek  (C 952)

Aug 10, 2011, 3:53 AM
Post #21 of 21 (2421 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] ---> Argus BANNED by government in Poland [In reply to] Can't Post

Final report, in English, is in:

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=4154713


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Aug 10, 2011, 3:57 AM)



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