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Tunnel to Airplane

 


DesertDevil  (D 6323)

Feb 20, 2010, 7:22 PM
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Tunnel to Airplane Can't Post

If you know your AFF student has a lot of tunnel time and flies well in the tunnel, do you teach the AFF student differently than if the student didn't have tunnel time? Of course, all students need to take the ground school.


DesertDevil  (D 6323)

Feb 21, 2010, 12:29 PM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps AFF students with prior tunnel time isn't a common occurance? It will be my first time teaching an AFF student with lots of tunnel time next week.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Feb 21, 2010, 3:40 PM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember seeing a show on the Discovery Channel maybe ten years ago. It was an hour-long show on extreme sports and one of the segments featured a free fly competition.

One of the competitors was a recent AFF graduate (really, he had less than two dozen jumps) but he had many, many hours of wind tunnel time. I believe he helped build and then began instructing at the Pigeon Forge wind tunnel. They interviewed him and he was full of confidence. He predicted he would be the winner. The video of his jump showed another story. He was all over the place and my guess is that was because in the open sky he no longer had a wall just a few feet away to use as reference. In a wind tunnel you know immediately if you're starting to drift sideways. I'm just sayin'.


(This post was edited by BobMoore on Feb 21, 2010, 3:42 PM)


emmiwy  (B 33982)

Feb 21, 2010, 10:13 PM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps AFF students with prior tunnel time isn't a common occurance? It will be my first time teaching an AFF student with lots of tunnel time next week.

Well I'm no instructor, but speaking as a student I think I can safely say that my instructors taught me a little differently. At least they had a more confident attitude about my ability to a point that they were changing the dive flow for my levels a bit to accommodate for what I could do in tunnel, and one instructor wanted me to skip another AFF level because of all the tunnel time I've done [at that point I had 45 min of tunnel time] and performance. It definitely was a nice confidence booster for me and helped me relax and fly much better during my levels :)

Hope this helps!


feuergnom  (D License)

Feb 22, 2010, 12:50 AM
Post #5 of 21 (2628 views)
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

quick & dirty answer:
tunnel doesn't teach you exits and tells you nothing about flying a canopy and landing it properly Smile

nonetheless tunnels are great training tools & I learned a lot in my limited tunnel time


mircan  (D 32291)

Feb 22, 2010, 3:44 AM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Last season we had 2 AAD fires on students who had previous tunnel time, but (very) low jump numbers.
Both had "their" reasons for not pulling on time, but it seemed to ME that they had forgot to look at the altimeter because they "thought" they had enough time, which could be "learned" behavior from the tunnel.
One student just had to do clear-and-pull from 5k feet... Crazy

That, of course is just my opinion, but for me it makes sense because they are used to the wind noise, used to 2-3 min rotations in the tunnel, no pull-time anxiety, no ground rush...

Still, maybe it was just a coincidence.


DesertDevil  (D 6323)

Feb 23, 2010, 9:52 PM
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Re: [mircan] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Last season we had 2 AAD fires on students who had previous tunnel time, but (very) low jump numbers.
Both had "their" reasons for not pulling on time, but it seemed to ME that they had forgot to look at the altimeter because they "thought" they had enough time, which could be "learned" behavior from the tunnel.
One student just had to do clear-and-pull from 5k feet... Crazy

That, of course is just my opinion, but for me it makes sense because they are used to the wind noise, used to 2-3 min rotations in the tunnel, no pull-time anxiety, no ground rush...

Still, maybe it was just a coincidence.

We had a guy who came to our dz to pack. When he discovered the wind tunnel, he stopped jumping and just went to the tunnel. In a few years, he came back to jump, and completely lost alititude awareness.I think you're completely right. They think they have a longer freefall time.


mircan  (D 32291)

Feb 24, 2010, 5:28 AM
Post #8 of 21 (2420 views)
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Little off-topic...
Here, some of the people tend to equal tunnel hours to jump numbers. It is because we have a lot of instructors here with 1000+ hop-and-pops and only couple of hours of free fall time (they think they are skygods b/c jump numbers). Least to say that their performance in free fall is not to great.
OTOH we have people who have couple of hours of tunnel, and think that tunnel time is making them equivalent of couple of hundred jumps.
Of course, both groups are wrong and then sh*t happens.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 25, 2010, 2:30 PM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Each student is different! A good teacher recognizes that fact. They identify the studentsĺ abilities/inabilities and go from there. Tunnel time is no guarantee of student success, but a good instructor will identify and build on that experience. IMHO, as always. Smile


kmills0705  (D 21696)

Feb 26, 2010, 11:07 AM
Post #10 of 21 (2264 views)
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Re: [emmiwy] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Perhaps AFF students with prior tunnel time isn't a common occurance? It will be my first time teaching an AFF student with lots of tunnel time next week.

Well I'm no instructor, but speaking as a student I think I can safely say that my instructors taught me a little differently. At least they had a more confident attitude about my ability to a point that they were changing the dive flow for my levels a bit to accommodate for what I could do in tunnel, and one instructor wanted me to skip another AFF level because of all the tunnel time I've done [at that point I had 45 min of tunnel time] and performance. It definitely was a nice confidence booster for me and helped me relax and fly much better during my levels :)

Hope this helps!

I don't think "skipping" AFF levels is ever a good idea - no matter how good you are. There are many more skills to learn other than freefall skills. Each AFF level has a canopy dive flow that MUST be successfully completed by the student. There is no "skipping" in my book.

And all you are really accomplishing is trading in an AFF jump for a future Coach jump...


ebusto  (C 38493)

Feb 26, 2010, 12:40 PM
Post #11 of 21 (2245 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Little off-topic...
Here, some of the people tend to equal tunnel hours to jump numbers. It is because we have a lot of instructors here with 1000+ hop-and-pops and only couple of hours of free fall time (they think they are skygods b/c jump numbers). Least to say that their performance in free fall is not to great.
OTOH we have people who have couple of hours of tunnel, and think that tunnel time is making them equivalent of couple of hundred jumps.
Of course, both groups are wrong and then sh*t happens.

Could you elaborate on how "both groups are wrong"?

I can't comment on people with a ton of hop and pops thinking they are sky gods, since most folks I know that primarily focus on canopy flight are realistic about their freefall skills.

I do know people with a non-trivial amount of tunnel time, but not necessarily a lot of jumps, and their freefall skill is definitely representative of the effort they have put in at the tunnel. I'm referring to people with only a couple of hours up to a couple tens of hours of tunnel time.


mircan  (D 32291)

Feb 27, 2010, 1:24 AM
Post #12 of 21 (2201 views)
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Re: [ebusto] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Little off-topic...
Here, some of the people tend to equal tunnel hours to jump numbers. It is because we have a lot of instructors here with 1000+ hop-and-pops and only couple of hours of free fall time (they think they are skygods b/c jump numbers). Least to say that their performance in free fall is not to great.
OTOH we have people who have couple of hours of tunnel, and think that tunnel time is making them equivalent of couple of hundred jumps.
Of course, both groups are wrong and then sh*t happens.

Could you elaborate on how "both groups are wrong"?

I can't comment on people with a ton of hop and pops thinking they are sky gods, since most folks I know that primarily focus on canopy flight are realistic about their freefall skills.

I do know people with a non-trivial amount of tunnel time, but not necessarily a lot of jumps, and their freefall skill is definitely representative of the effort they have put in at the tunnel. I'm referring to people with only a couple of hours up to a couple tens of hours of tunnel time.


1. hop-n-pop skygods (remnants of the old times) say something like this: I`m a mighty instructor, I have thousands of jumps, you can`t know anything better than me, thus I am the king of the DZ and you must listen and obey me.
Reality is that all they manage is to pull linked exit belly 2-way and don`t fly anything smaller/modern than their 280sqft parafoil, and lack knowledge on some basic stuff like pro pack and new canopy designs.
But they have thousands of jumps, thus they are skygods.
2. OTOH, second group has 2-3 hours of tunnel flying 15 (100max) jumps and thinks that tunnel time translates into jump numbers. They say (to the hnp skygods): You don`t know shit about new stuff, go back to the stone age where you belong. We can turn six RW points and we are the mega kings. And then they forgot to check the altimeter (or ...

I exaggerated some, but I hope you understand where I was going with this.

disclaimer: hop-n-pop skygod is term that is specific to this part of the world (i hope)


MomDaBomb

Feb 27, 2010, 7:24 PM
Post #13 of 21 (2134 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

I started in the tunnel just before my AFF and continued through out it. The instructor had me doing pretend altitude checks, wave and pulls every time. After reading that, I'm so glad she did.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 1, 2010, 9:56 AM
Post #14 of 21 (2041 views)
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Re: [MomDaBomb] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

We had a recent tunnel girl go through AFF.

1 - she had trained to Mantis - deal was she could fly mantis during the jump, but had to pull in the big boxman at pull time

2 - they really focused on altitude awareness and canopy control and exits and pull time - (no kidding)

3 - she did great and was able to focus on the other key areas because the freefall portion was comfortable and not an issue

4 - she didn't have an attitude and listened - the AFFIs said she was one of the best students and easiest ever and want more like her - and a couple noted her centerpoint turns were cleaner than they could fly........Laugh

Skyjumpinfool seems best answer - take each student and work with what you have. There is no plug and chug answer until you see them in action.

I have 3 pre-AFF students in my tunnelcamp next week. We want to prep them to be ready for AFF, but we'll make sure they know that when it's time for the real thing - they do what the instructors say and this prep work is no more than what it is - a good time and a chance to learn to be comfortable flying


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 1, 2010, 9:57 AM)


jim_32766  (B 34492)

Mar 25, 2010, 7:45 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Like most things, the tunnel has its strengths and weaknesses regarding preparing AFF students. I am a recent AFF grad and can remember well the learning experience. I had 17 minutes of tunnel time and a tandem jump prior to starting AFF. I think that combination really helped me with AFF. I was comfortable that I could control by body in freefall from the tunnel time, and I was past the first jump jitters from the tandem. That allowed me to concentrate better on the rest of the tasks.

Of course canopy flight and landing were still new and I am still working on regularly making those elusive perfect landings. Wink


feuergnom  (D License)

Mar 25, 2010, 9:28 AM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

my first-hand experience / 0,2's from last weekend:

I spent some hours in the tunnel and we had a complete novice with us - he had never jumped before and he did his first tunnel lessons. at the end of his training he was able to level to some extent, turn and stop and do some other basic maneuvers.

granted: as we were such a big group there was not much time for thorough "ground-training" between the slots (and nobody wanted to interfere with the tunnel-instructors eaching) - so his progression was slow. afterwards i thought: hell, if i had tought him in a skydiving environment, he would have made a much faster and better progression because there is simple a lot more time between jumps where you can actually train somebody to perform in the air. and that is imho the big difference between learning in the tunnel and learning in the air


(This post was edited by feuergnom on Mar 25, 2010, 9:30 AM)


old_timer  (D 1962)

Mar 28, 2010, 8:50 AM
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Re: [BobMoore] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

could it be that maybe he did poorly, because he only had a couple dozen jumps! In the tunnel the ground does not come up at you as in freefall. And that alone can make someone nervus and blow the jump...


DesertDevil  (D 6323)

Mar 28, 2010, 9:45 PM
Post #18 of 21 (1631 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
my first-hand experience / 0,2's from last weekend:

I spent some hours in the tunnel and we had a complete novice with us - he had never jumped before and he did his first tunnel lessons. at the end of his training he was able to level to some extent, turn and stop and do some other basic maneuvers.

granted: as we were such a big group there was not much time for thorough "ground-training" between the slots (and nobody wanted to interfere with the tunnel-instructors eaching) - so his progression was slow. afterwards i thought: hell, if i had tought him in a skydiving environment, he would have made a much faster and better progression because there is simple a lot more time between jumps where you can actually train somebody to perform in the air. and that is imho the big difference between learning in the tunnel and learning in the air

I worked with a kid who had prior tunnel experience. He was pretty good, but on the first jump he didn't show very good altitude awareness. On the second jump, he pulled just fine. I agree with you that tunnel time will help with the AFF course, but it won't teach everything.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 29, 2010, 3:44 PM
Post #19 of 21 (1579 views)
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He was pretty good, but on the first jump he didn't show very good altitude awareness.

is that either a student problem or an instruction issue.Tongue

for that matter, I've also seen non-tunnel students that weren't very good, and also didn't show very good altitude awareness........


Ron

Apr 13, 2010, 7:20 AM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends.

As an AFFI and a guy that teaches a bunch in the tunnel.....

Yes, I do things differently if *I* know their performance in the tunnel. With a military group I worked with we gave each person an hour of tunnel and started with AFFL4. But that group ended the camp with two hours tunnel and over 50 jumps before they were out from under our supervision.

With a civilian, I would not skip levels (Liability issues). I do however ADD objectives to each level. Once the student performs all of the required maneuvers I let them add more maneuvers. For example an AFFL2 might do forward movement to docking.

If an exp tunnel flier can fly in the mantis.... I let them.

Basically they have to prove they can do what they claim they can do, then I let them.

One thing that will catch you is that tunnel folks when trying to flip over off their backs don't follow the same procedure a jumper does.

We teach jumpers to arch and flip an arm in.... Works great in the air, but it could be dangerous in the tunnel where they might pop up and slam into a wall. So in the tunnel people often just use their legs to roll over (more like a cat). Safe and works great in the tunnel, but in the air, they will SPEED up quickly.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Apr 13, 2010, 9:26 AM
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Re: [DesertDevil] Tunnel to Airplane [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Most, if not all, of my private students these days have pre tunnel time. They are awesome in the air after I let them go on the first AFF jump. They get the aircraft exits down though, just like a non tunnel student, and have better altitude awareness, since they aren't having to think about any stability issues.
With tunnels so abundant now, any one thinking of learning to skydive should take the time to get in one and learn stability in the air before starting a skydiving course.



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