Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Xfire or no?

 

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johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 10, 2003, 5:40 PM
Post #1 of 26 (2386 views)
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Xfire or no? Can't Post

I am flying a safire2 169 and am landing 180's pretty well but am worried about how low I have to start the turn. I have probably 40 or 50 jumps on the safire. I was thinking of having simon send me a Xfire2 169. I am worried that I will like it too much and get bored with my safire. Should I continue to work on my skills with the safire? If I do I am still leary of downsizing eventually to a crossfire2 149. Seems like a big change. Anyway my question is what is my best bet for learning with safety in mind also.

Other stuff
400+ jumps
230 out the door
275 jumps on a safire1 209 before this

Im not extreme with my flying and have no problem blowing off a landing for a safer route.


ColdDuck  (D 26483)

Feb 10, 2003, 7:41 PM
Post #2 of 26 (2341 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Since you say that you are leary of the idea of downsizing right now maybe you should continue to jump what you have. Or Why not demo a Crossfire 169 so you can compare between the canopies and not have to factor the smaller size between the two.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 10, 2003, 7:56 PM
Post #3 of 26 (2338 views)
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Re: [ColdDuck] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im pretty sure I would chose the xfire. I was wondering if I should try to learn on the safire a bit longer. If it would help me in the long run.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 10, 2003, 8:10 PM
Post #4 of 26 (2325 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

dude, learn your safire before you down size. and learn it good. Wink

you shouldn't down size if your kinda leary of were to start your hook.

and, can you land it if you have a toggle break??

can you land it in the pea's 10 jump, predeclaired in a row??

if you can be confident with all these, then that's when you should start even thinking about downsizing.

now, more than likely, you'll get the xfire to try anyway, but if you do, just be careful.Unsure

later


(This post was edited by skygod7777 on Feb 10, 2003, 8:11 PM)


listo  (D License)

Feb 10, 2003, 9:33 PM
Post #5 of 26 (2308 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey brother, you are about my size so I will tell you from my perspective some things you might want to consider.

First of all you need to look at the altitude of your DZ. I jump at sea level on the east coast with a stiletto 120 @ 2.0. Now, when I went to Alabama to jump, I noticed that I needed to do my approach about 150-200 feet higher than normal because of the different MSL level. The point of focus is that at different altitudes, your wing loading means different things. Also, winter jumping and summer jumping cause huge differences in canopy performance as well. Winter days usually have more dense air and will allow you to recover from situations that would put you into the ground during the summer. Again, the higher the wing loading, the more this becomes important.

The next thing you need to ask yourself is "why am I wanting to downsize". Quite often one of the answers will be "I am tired of flying this truck and having to wear a huge rig to accomodate it", this my friend should be the first thought of reasoning to expell from your thoughts.

The last thing I am going to suggest is this. You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders about downsizing. Would it really hurt anything to go one more season on your current canopy to really make sure that there isn't anything more you can do with it?Wink

I have a titanium rod in my femur and a permanent back injury from downsizing and doing things I "knew" I was ready to do. All it takes is one occurance of bad judgement to kill or maim you for life. It can be done under any size canopy.

My overall suggestion would be this. Double your altitude you are approaching with right now. Force your canopy to fly to your desires instead of letting it "pull out" with front riser pressure. Sure, you are going to plane out high a few times, but you will eventually learn dig deep in your soul for the strength to make it do what you want it to. Larger canopies are a mother to do HP flight with, but if you are patient with yourself and the canopy you will amaze yourself and your friends.

I saw a guy the other day doing 360 front riser approaches with a Sabre 170 @ 1.5 and keeping it in a dive as long as I have been doing with my stiletto 120 @ 2.0. He told me he could do it before he did and I laughed. I ended up eating my words when he did do it. The other thing is this. When you can get the larger canopies to go faster like that......well the swoops are nothing short of amazing distance wise.

I never would have believed that someone could get a 60 yard toe drag with a 170 @ 1.5 of any kind until I saw this ole timer do it.

It is much easier to downsize because of the riser pressures with sustained speed, but this gentleman with 800 jumps on his 170 showed up a lot of "hot swoopers" that dayLaugh


rhino  (D 22500)

Feb 11, 2003, 7:48 AM
Post #6 of 26 (2207 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Safire and Crossfire2 are NO WHERE close to the same canopies...

Be very carefull.. The crossfire2 is EXTREMELY fast and responsive. It doesn't alot for error...

Be carefull brother..

Rhino


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2003, 9:51 AM
Post #7 of 26 (2176 views)
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Re: [rhino] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not looking to make a switch to downsize. I was considering a xfire2 169 for my safire2 169. I was thinking of the flight characteristics of the canopy ie longer recovery arc. I was asking if I would need to break any bad habits after puting 300 or more jumps on this safire and then going to a xfire like the altitude (or lack of it) that the safire lets me turn in or how hard it pulls out of a dive. I thought it might be safer to learn on a bigger xfire first. I have no problem sticking with the safire. Also every one of my last 300+ landings (with the exception of a few out landings) were with some input, mostly 45's to double fronts so id like to think im not starting from scratch. If I decide the safire is the canopy to stay with I dont think I'll fly a xfire till Im ready to switch. Thanks for all the input! Add more if you wish.


listo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2003, 9:59 AM
Post #8 of 26 (2175 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was asking if I would need to break any bad habits after puting 300 or more jumps on this safire and then going to a xfire like the altitude (or lack of it) that the safire lets me turn in or how hard it pulls out of a dive. I thought it might be safer to learn on a bigger xfire first. I have no problem sticking with the safire. Also every one of my last 300+ landings (with the exception of a few out landings) were with some input, mostly 45's to double fronts so id like to think im not starting from scratch.

Any time you switch canopies, you have to start over from scratch! It is highly reccomended that when a canopy switch is made to make a few straight in approaches and then work slowly back to what you had been doing with your previous canopy. When I say slowly, I mean over the course of about 30 jumps or so. Even then, it is risky.

Please don't have the misconception that you can go out and try the same things on a canopy of the same size but with a different planform, especially when going from a semi-elliptical to a fully elliptical HP canopy like the crossfire or crossfire2. It is just plain bad judgement to do that.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2003, 11:27 AM
Post #9 of 26 (2150 views)
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Re: [listo] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

The more I think about the choices and read replies the more I think the safire is the better choice. I was just getting anxious for a bit more. No need to rush things just yet. Thanks everyone for your input. I haven't switched planform shapes yet so the idea of starting over makes sense. Thank you.


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 11, 2003, 11:55 AM
Post #10 of 26 (2140 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

interesting thread!
I'm pretty much at your point (360 jumps, 300 jumps under a safire at 1,3:1, doing 90+ to double front) and I've been throu the same dilema (ie should I go eliptical, should I down size, should I do both). I ended with the same conclusion: I'm gona put another season on the safire Cool

Alain


aufreefly  (A 35174)

Feb 11, 2003, 12:25 PM
Post #11 of 26 (2127 views)
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Re: [alain] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm gona put another season on the safire

Why not...a competent pilot can swoop the heel out of a safire

check out the first canopy to go under the hanger...safire...it can be done
http://www.atlantafreeflight.com/hangar_swoop.html
I wish I could go back and put a few more hundred on both my previous canopy's, but the openings sucked and slamming openings are not something that I am going to deal with!


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 11, 2003, 1:09 PM
Post #12 of 26 (2112 views)
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Re: [alain] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
interesting thread!
I'm pretty much at your point (360 jumps, 300 jumps under a safire at 1,3:1, doing 90+ to double front) and I've been throu the same dilema (ie should I go eliptical, should I down size, should I do both). I ended with the same conclusion: I'm gona put another season on the safire

the safire is eliptical, not much, but it is Wink

later


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2003, 2:33 PM
Post #13 of 26 (2080 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know its a way off but if after a number of jumps (and probably this whole season) on the safire169 if I wanted to go to a xfire should I move sideways to a 169 or downsize? I would wait until I would have wanted to downsize to a 149. Would the planform change and size be a bit too much? Just talking out my ass now but curious anyway.


TALONSKY  (D License)

Feb 11, 2003, 2:54 PM
Post #14 of 26 (2076 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Johnny here is some info on the Safire you may not know
I e-mailed Icarus and explained that this had been talked about here and if they could give me a reply that I could post so here is Icarus's reply

The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%.
The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as
PD.

All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD.

The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's.

We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation.

Only the Safire and Omega were affected.

Blue skies
Simon

Icarus Canopies
USA: 1S671 Bender Lane, West Chicago, IL 60185, USA
Ph. (630) 562-2735, Fax (630) 231-4430
Europe: P.I. El Ramassar, c/ VallÚs, s/n O8520,
Les Franqueses, Barcelona, SPAIN.
Ph. (34) 938 496 432, Fax (34) 938 497 971
www.icaruscanopies.com


Blues Skies
Kirk


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2003, 3:01 PM
Post #15 of 26 (2075 views)
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Re: [TALONSKY] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im aware of the size difference but thanks for adding the info for everyone. I jumped a safire1 209 for 275 or so jumps. I now have a safire2 169.


Jimbo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2003, 4:04 PM
Post #16 of 26 (2060 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
the safire is eliptical, not much, but it is

Bah. So is the Navigator.

I think I'd like to see that word dropped entirely from canopy marketing and replaced with novice, beginner, advanced, extreme, etc...

-
Jim


f1freak  (C License)

Feb 11, 2003, 5:28 PM
Post #17 of 26 (2044 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can say that i was 100% happy when i downsized to a sabre 170 from a pd 190, that i had never landed very well.....
I mean sometimes just changing the type of canopy is all it takes....
so you cant always use the "can you land the canopy standing all the time.... " in all situations....
i would say demo the xfire at the same size first, see what you think....


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 11, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #18 of 26 (2035 views)
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Re: [Jimbo] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


the safire is eliptical, not much, but it is

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bah. So is the Navigator.

I think I'd like to see that word dropped entirely from canopy marketing and replaced with novice, beginner, advanced, extreme, etc...

ya, me too. eliptical isn't the right word. but it is for right now. would it make ya feel better to say that it is slightly tappered. Wink

later


jumperconway  (D 24335)

Feb 11, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #19 of 26 (2009 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

(Let me state beforehand that I jump every decent weekend to the tune of over 600 jumps last year. This was the edit)

Johny,
I started jumping a Xfire 1 loaded 1.8+ at 300 jumps. This was extreme and a lot of people at my DZ said that would die under it. After 500+ under that canopy, I have put several hundred on a Xaos loaded 2.2+. If you are at a DZ with a large landing area, you SHOULD be able to handle the Xfire 2. The big difference is forgiveness. If you make a mistake on the Safire you may walk away. under the Xfire, the same mistake may kill or mame you! Handled with kid gloves, the Xfire is a much better canopy. Once you start pushing YOUR limits, the margin for error shrinks, big time. The Xfire will stay diving like your Safire never thought possible. I am far from a canopy nazi as you can tell, but understand your choice. I was lucky going against what I was told but being very conservative under a new, different type canopy should improve your chances of survival. Only you know how you feel landing your canopy. Blue skies, good luck and be careful!Smile

If not the canopy nazis will be on me like stink on shi#!Wink


(This post was edited by jumperconway on Feb 11, 2003, 7:34 PM)


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Feb 11, 2003, 8:04 PM
Post #20 of 26 (1998 views)
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Re: [jumperconway] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is not much room for error at the ranch. I will probably jump my ass of with the safire this season and see if simon is coming up for the pond swoop nationals. If he is I'll ask him to bring a xfire2 169.

Also I have no problem with the elliptical term. Is the navigator "elliptical" in the way of having a constant cell aspect ratio or does it have a taper to the leading and trailing edges of the last 3 cells on each side. Like the sabre2, is that tapered like the stilleto is? Having the cells on either side chopped in the front and back? Just wondering out loud again.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Feb 11, 2003, 9:32 PM
Post #21 of 26 (1986 views)
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Re: [jumperconway] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I started jumping a Xfire 1 loaded 1.8+ at 300 jumps. This was extreme and a lot of people at my DZ said that would die under it. After 500+ under that canopy, I have put several hundred on a Xaos loaded 2.2+.

How many of these landings were "less than ideal", i.e. hurt?

Hook


jumperconway  (D 24335)

Feb 12, 2003, 5:32 AM
Post #22 of 26 (1954 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I started jumping a Xfire 1 loaded 1.8+ at 300 jumps. This was extreme and a lot of people at my DZ said that would die under it. After 500+ under that canopy, I have put several hundred on a Xaos loaded 2.2+.

How many of these landings were "less than ideal", i.e. hurt?

Less than ideal? 3 off DZ landings and a few on the Dz down wind, when I probably should have landed off safely into the wind. Put myself in a position early where I had to set it down in a small fenced back yard once. Never hurt.


jumperconway  (D 24335)

Feb 12, 2003, 5:45 AM
Post #23 of 26 (1949 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is not much room for error at the ranch. I will probably jump my ass of with the safire this season and see if simon is coming up for the pond swoop nationals. If he is I'll ask him to bring a xfire2 169.
---------------------------------------------
If I didn't jump year round, I would be real leary of downsizing. I would even suggest getting a demo one size larger at first to get a feel for the different flight
characteristics. From what I have heard of the ranch, it is much less forgiving than the DZ's I jump.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Feb 12, 2003, 5:54 AM
Post #24 of 26 (1943 views)
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Re: [johnny1488] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, i already know i put my $.02 in, but i was just thinking. you jump at the ranch. and if any way (and i'm not say you are thinking this, but if you are) that crossfire will be cooler than a safire, look at max cohn. he jumps a safire 2 as his main canopy as i'm sure you know, so just something to think about. one of the more respected jumpers at your dz i'm sure, and isn't getting into the hipe of high performance canopies.

later


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 12, 2003, 6:19 AM
Post #25 of 26 (1936 views)
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Re: [skygod7777] Xfire or no? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the safire is eliptical, not much, but it is

ok, I wrote that in some other thread... I should have said HP instead Tongue

Alain


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