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Tandem Lowers

 

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Poll: Tandem Lowers
Leave em hooked, or reconnect after losening. 67 / 50%
Disconnect and leave dangling. 68 / 50%
135 total votes
 
skydived19006  (D 19006)

Dec 16, 2009, 12:52 PM
Post #1 of 66 (4021 views)
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Tandem Lowers Can't Post

I've just been informed by multiple parties that it's not a good idea to release the lower connectors and leave them that way. And one Tandem IE stating that it's against Strong Enterprise teachings, don't know about the other manufacturers.

Good enough, but I don't think that in the real world this is general practice. After thinking about it for a bit, and especially remembering seeing a whole lot of TIs land in windy conditions, without exception I can't recall ever seeing anyone disconnect anything other than the top two after landing.

Since people here tend not to go against the accepted correct "I do it the wrong way", for not feeling the need to go out of their way to get flamed, I've made the poll (anonymous).

For what ever it's worth, maybe nothing more than awareness.


indyz  (D 28525)

Dec 16, 2009, 1:25 PM
Post #2 of 66 (3936 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

I go by the Sigma manual (the only system that I'm rated on) and reconnect after loosening. Not loosening the lowers at all makes landing difficult. I forgot to do it once after a reserve ride and didn't realize it until I was flaring.


parachutist  (D 25468)

Dec 16, 2009, 1:26 PM
Post #3 of 66 (3931 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

I got advice from a TI soon after I got my TI rating: It's a good idea to disconnect lowers after main canopy opens, loosen them all the way, then reconnect them in case of need to cutaway at lower altitude. I started doing that. About 100 jumps later I deployed, disconnected lowers & loosened them, reconnected them, then noticed we had a right turn going. We had a big rip on top skin of our main. I was glad the lowers were connected. We cut away, skyhook deployed our reserve, everything went smooth.

It takes about 4 extra seconds after I've landed to disconnect both lowers. I don't see reason for leaving them undone while under canopy


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 16, 2009, 1:26 PM
Post #4 of 66 (3930 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two reasons not to leave them dangling.
The first one is the case of the canopy wrap where the TM and passenger suffered broken necks after cutaway due to them hinging on the upper clips. Although I do not do tandem crw I do occasionally engage in proximity flying. When I do I always reconnect the lowers.
The other scenario is when you are spiraling after releasing the lowers the hook to the inside of the spiral can (and apparently has) catch the steering line causing an uncontrollable canopy that cannot be cut away. In my experience this is not a problem with a thin passenger as the strap is not long enough to be a problem. For thicker passengers I do them back up after extending them. I do however re-release them once I enter the pattern. One rather thick TE told me he sticks them between him and the passenger and they stay there. This method does not work for me due to my svelte form (well, compared to him anyway).Wink


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Dec 16, 2009, 4:51 PM
Post #5 of 66 (3858 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

missed one for strongs. disconnecting and clipping them back into the piece on the back.


skyjump122  (D 20797)

Dec 16, 2009, 5:18 PM
Post #6 of 66 (3850 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

This is very, very scary!
Regardless of the brand of tandem equipment.
If you are disconnecting and leaving the lowers disconnected you are creating a hinge point at the shoulder. This hinge point can kill, either during a cut-away or landing.
I have also seen this practice, and have told the instructors in every case of the dangers in doing so. I did not bring this to light to knock anyone - I pointed it out to possibly save some lives.

Now I just saw this "missed one for strongs. disconnecting and clipping them back into the piece on the back." This does nothing to prevent the hinge point at the shoulders! It only prevents the straps from hanging, and probably takes just as long to do.... Plain and simple, the lowers need to be connected at the hook-up rings.

When I was still wet behind the ears as a tandem instructor, I witnessed an equally bad practice being followed by the veterans at another DZ. Out of respect for their experience, I kept quiet being the newbie.
A year or so later this same practice at the very same DZ resulted in a tandem fatality! This is not a decision that should be based on what others are doing!
A group of people doing something wrong doesn't make it safe. I have seen complacency result in a fatality one too many times. If you see this being done, please be the one to step up and say something.
Thanks everyone


(This post was edited by skyjump122 on Dec 16, 2009, 5:53 PM)


kj126  (D 28079)

Dec 16, 2009, 6:15 PM
Post #7 of 66 (3815 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

The 2 reason that were explained to me for the rule of leaving the lowers connected after loosening.

Incident 1-released the lowers but not pulling out the slack so they were waist level, doing a spin with one toggle buried, the steering line could hook into the lower connector and spin you in without being able to release the main.

2nd was a release of the lowers and on landing toppling over the student because you are only attached with the uppers could break your neck.Pirate


skydog  (D 567)

Dec 16, 2009, 11:47 PM
Post #8 of 66 (3739 views)
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Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

I disconnect mine at 2000ft (and tuck them in between the student and me) after I know there are no canopy issues.

As for high pivot point, if you are smashing your landings you should reconsider being a TI.


douwanto  (D 23851)

Dec 17, 2009, 2:15 AM
Post #9 of 66 (3722 views)
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Re: [skydog] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

I was taught to loosen the laterals and reconnect them. I teach loosen the laterals and reconnect them.

That said after seeing more than a few TI's struggle on landing because of the restricted lower body movement I now relaese them and connect them to the harness,on front with /sigma and the back with Strong after a complete canopy control check including a couple of hard turns and full flairs. It allows me to get my knees and feet well up and outside the passengers body for landing allowing me to protect my body and theirs during difficult landings.

As for canopy wraps I will avoid them at all cost but am aware of and prepared to control my passengers body at all times.

I saw BoB Holler flip a passenger threw the harness with the lowers attached in Tallahassee when I had 60 or so tandems.

By the way I have 4372 tandems and 0 injuries to speak of. I think some of that is related to mobility during landing. My rule is dont flip over the student on landing and I slide more than I stand.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 17, 2009, 8:01 AM
Post #10 of 66 (3628 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

Majority of my tandem experience is on Strong.
Disconnect, loosen, re-attach.
Same with Sigma.
Smile

I see other that leave them disconnected and don't understand why either....Unsure


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 17, 2009, 3:17 PM
Post #11 of 66 (3541 views)
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Re: [skydog] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As for high pivot point, if you are smashing your landings you should reconsider being a TI.

Damned straight, i consistently see experienced most often older TI's that cannot land a parachute well at all, competence and confidence is everything in tandem skydiving.

I usullay just leave them dangling, I know i should probably reconnect them, but I should probably not be using a precision reserve in a sigma container, let alone a icarus main, or use my secondary drogue release as my primary, or punching 8/8ths clouds below 5k...

If I have to cutaway I have legs to grip and words to speak, I am quite confident that the pivot point is not a problem.

The toggle hooking up is more of a concern. but my technique does not locate my toggles anywhere near the hips of the passenger. We fly only Icarus 330's for EVERYBODY, even up to 140kg (300lb's) passengers, so the toggles are only at around the customers shoulders when piloting the canopy.

As far as I am aware I have only ever worked with 1 instructor that does this, I have worked with well over 100 different tandem masters!


deadwood  (D 9930)

Dec 17, 2009, 4:28 PM
Post #12 of 66 (3516 views)
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Re: [skydog] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

[As for high pivot point, if you are smashing your landings you should reconsider being a TI.
If you think you will never run into turbulence during a landing, never have anyone ever cut you off, or never ever make a mistake during a landing, then you should reconsider being a TI.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 17, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #13 of 66 (3512 views)
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Re: [deadwood] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you think you will never run into turbulence during a landing, never have anyone ever cut you off, or never ever make a mistake during a landing, then you should reconsider being a TI.

If you think connecting your lowers is going to help you when you;

1, are cut off.
2, make a mistake on landing.
3, are thumped in, by turbulance.

You sould reconsider being a TI.

LaughTongue


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Dec 17, 2009, 4:50 PM
Post #14 of 66 (3500 views)
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Re: [deadwood] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[As for high pivot point, if you are smashing your landings you should reconsider being a TI.

If you think you will never run into turbulence during a landing, never have anyone ever cut you off, or never ever make a mistake during a landing, then you should reconsider being a TI.
Off topic somewhat, but what causes me to land hard is not so much turbulence but gusting. When you're on final at 50' and the wind goes from 25 mph to 10 mph, it doesn't matter what canopy you have over your head, how many tandems you have, or mad skilz you posses, you're going to thump in. I guess maybe you could always do a fairly aggressive speed generating maneuver, but that may come to bite you in the ass one day as well.

Martin


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Dec 17, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #15 of 66 (3484 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

I use option of re-attach on the front of pax harness. I've heard the war story of an instructor gettin a sleeve caught in one swinging out and attaching itself to his jumpsuit. His hand (with toggle) was forced to remain down. Too low. He lucked out and freed it in time.

When they dangle they clunk against knees as you walk back in.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 17, 2009, 8:07 PM
Post #16 of 66 (3471 views)
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Re: [efs4ever] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When they dangle they clunk against knees as you walk back in.

Thats if you don't have the harness 'on' correctly, the purpose of those straps is to keep your hips together I usually have only a couple of inches length in the straps once connected.

Uless of course they have a huge belly or ass! then there is a little more length.


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Dec 17, 2009, 8:11 PM
Post #17 of 66 (3466 views)
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Re: [rhys] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

When mine walk back in the harness is not properly adjusted, because I've undone the chest and belly and let out the leg straps. My students don't get hit in the knees because the lowers are attached to the D ring in front of their harness.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 17, 2009, 10:44 PM
Post #18 of 66 (3449 views)
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Re: [efs4ever] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

Our GCO's remove the harnesses from the customers in the landing area.


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 18, 2009, 5:57 AM
Post #19 of 66 (3410 views)
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Re: [rhys] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

The purpose of those straps are to attach the student to the harness!
Hips don't separate anyway! Most of us have a pelvic bone that connects the hips.
Crazy


skyjump122  (D 20797)

Dec 18, 2009, 5:37 PM
Post #20 of 66 (3349 views)
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Re: [rhys] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

complacency
Main Entry: comĚplaĚcenĚcy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural comĚplaĚcenĚcies
Date: 1650
1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies
2 : an instance of complacency
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I disconnect mine at 2000ft (and tuck them in between the student and me) after I know there are no canopy issues.

As for high pivot point, if you are smashing your landings you should reconsider being a TI."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I was taught to loosen the laterals and reconnect them. I teach loosen the laterals and reconnect them.

That said after seeing more than a few TI's struggle on landing because of the restricted lower body movement I now relaese them and connect them to the harness,on front with /sigma and the back with Strong after a complete canopy control check including a couple of hard turns and full flairs. It allows me to get my knees and feet well up and outside the passengers body for landing allowing me to protect my body and theirs during difficult landings.

As for canopy wraps I will avoid them at all cost but am aware of and prepared to control my passengers body at all times.

I saw BoB Holler flip a passenger threw the harness with the lowers attached in Tallahassee when I had 60 or so tandems.

By the way I have 4372 tandems and 0 injuries to speak of. I think some of that is related to mobility during landing. My rule is dont flip over the student on landing and I slide more than I stand."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ShockedIt must be wonderful to know that because of your experience level, and it has never happened - It will never happen! Smile

My student will never slide out ahead of me on landing, because I fly a high speed tandem canopy and hook em in. I'm just that friggin good!

I will never have to cut away my main because it will never unexpectedly rip or anything like that, after all I did a thorough check. I'm just that friggin good!

My equipment manufacturer recommends leaving the lowers slackened. but connected. But that is for those other instructors who just aren't up to my caliber.
I'm just that friggin good!

On a sit or buttslide landing if your feet and knees are up high on the sides to protect them, is their ass the first point of contact? I tend to absorb the landing with my heels. But even in a perfect landing if a foot catches a rut or soft spot, the student can continue to slide out ahead of me. This is one of many ways a hinge point at the shoulders becomes a real possibility. If the side connectors are fully let out they do not severly limit your movement, but they do prevent hinging at the shoulders.

I thought the scary part was that some weren't aware of the potential danger of leaving the lowers disconnected.
The truly scary part is that some are making a decision to knowingly disregard the manufacturers recommendations.
Do you think manufacturers gather injury and fatality details for no reason?
They evaluate the situation that resulted in an accident, and make recommendations to prevent them in the future.

If you do hurt a student in any way, and find yourself in court - do you want a video showing the lowers disconnected out there? Even if it is totally unrelated, it could be evidence of not following procedures. Families and friends carry camcorders, and the one part they do get on video is the landing.

The manufacturers of tandem equipment recommend loosening, but not disconnecting from the connecting rings. If you must be disconnect to loosen them, they must be reconnected to the rings.
If you think there is a valid reason for not doing so, I suggest you contact the manufacturer of your respective equipment.


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 18, 2009, 6:14 PM
Post #21 of 66 (3340 views)
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Re: [skyjump122] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The manufacturers of tandem equipment recommend loosening, but not disconnecting from the connecting rings. If you must be disconnect to loosen them, they must be reconnected to the rings.
If you think there is a valid reason for not doing so, I suggest you contact the manufacturer of your respective equipment.

O?K rule boy I';ll take your advice but will not utilise it, next time you jump a stron rig without a set 400 canopy in it, think about this conversation.

I keep it real but i bet in real life you are just as scared to spaek up against the DZO as the next guy.

it is easy to be 'rule boy' on an internet firum but in real life you'll just shut up and do your job.

I'll keep it real!


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Dec 18, 2009, 7:13 PM
Post #22 of 66 (3322 views)
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Re: [rhys] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The manufacturers of tandem equipment recommend loosening, but not disconnecting from the connecting rings. If you must be disconnect to loosen them, they must be reconnected to the rings.
If you think there is a valid reason for not doing so, I suggest you contact the manufacturer of your respective equipment.

O?K rule boy I';ll take your advice but will not utilise it, next time you jump a stron rig without a set 400 canopy in it, think about this conversation.

I keep it real but i bet in real life you are just as scared to spaek up against the DZO as the next guy.

it is easy to be 'rule boy' on an internet firum but in real life you'll just shut up and do your job.

I'll keep it real!

Typical of most of the conversations here. Someone asks 'Do you do it wrong.' Few will step up and say "Yes I do!" As in "Do you put an altimeter on your tandem students? You know that it's only right to put an altimeter on your students. If you don't put an altimeter on your students, you're just wrong!"

The majority see no reason to stand up and say "I never put an altimeter on my students." So, the result you see here is just comments from the quire.

That said, and as stated in the original post, I'll raise awareness if nothing else is accomplished.

Be safe out there!
Martin


normiss  (D 28356)

Dec 18, 2009, 8:08 PM
Post #23 of 66 (3314 views)
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Re: [rhys] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well at least now some folks are on public record of disregarding the manufacturer's recommendations.
That should help them immensely in any legal dispute over negligence should a student become injured.
Unimpressed


skyjump122  (D 20797)

Dec 18, 2009, 10:26 PM
Post #24 of 66 (3291 views)
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Re: [normiss] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok nuff said,
The question was raised: Is it safe and/or correct to leave the lowers disconnected?

The manufacturers do not recommend this practice, some quite adimately.

Therefore the correct answer to the question is no.

And yes I only jump either a SET 400 or 360 in the Dual Hawks.


TaylorC  (D 29769)

Dec 18, 2009, 10:41 PM
Post #25 of 66 (3286 views)
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Re: [skyjump122] Tandem Lowers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok nuff said,
The question was raised: Is it safe and/or correct to leave the lowers disconnected?

The manufacturers do not recommend this practice, some quite adimately.

Therefore the correct answer to the question is no.

And yes I only jump either a SET 400 or 360 in the Dual Hawks.

hope you mean a 366 Wink


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