Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
T.I. constantly unstable

 

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tat2guy  (D 30000)

Dec 7, 2009, 9:01 PM
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T.I. constantly unstable Can't Post

so seeing the other thread on T.I. and doing dangerous stuff. i was wondering what you guys can give some insight or imput into soething that ive seen happen fairly frequently. i go to do a tandem video and one certain T.I has got me flying in all body positions to stay with him as he tumbles out of the plane flipping at least once but ive seen up to 3 times. ive also watched him pitch the drogue unstable on a regular basis, including a couple times were he stopped flipping and was on his back and used it to flip him to his belly.

im not a S&TA but this seems like it could also be pretty dangerous, am i wrong? i fear the drogue wrapping around him or his student.

sorry in advance for poor spelling ect.


mwabd1  (D 25298)

Dec 7, 2009, 9:09 PM
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Re: [tat2guy] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this a new TI? Is the problem just the exit?

If it is a true safety concern than I would go to the DZO or DZ Manager and request not to film that person. I have witnessed alot of new TI's screw the pooch if a video person is added to soon after they get the rating, it could be as easy as removing that distraction to give the guy time to get comfy.


Rover  (D 241)

Dec 7, 2009, 9:19 PM
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Re: [tat2guy] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
ive also watched him pitch the drogue unstable on a regular basis, including a couple times were he stopped flipping and was on his back and used it to flip him to his belly.

Isn't that what drogues for....Pirate


tat2guy  (D 30000)

Dec 7, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: [mwabd1] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

good idea, this T.I has over a 1000 tandems. his unstabilty is in his exit and usually its the drogue that gets him stable.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Dec 8, 2009, 4:43 AM
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Re: [tat2guy] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
good idea, this T.I has over a 1000 tandems. his unstabilty is in his exit and usually its the drogue that gets him stable.

It sounds like a serious issue.

I would start with a conversation with the TI immediately after a bad jump. You could approach him and ask "what happened with that exit," while expressing concern about his overall ability to manage the initial part of the jump. He may not know what he's doing is perceived as an issue. That you fly with other TI's is an advantage because you can clue him into how they handle similar jumps. It's also pretty easy to say something like "When I'm shooting your exits I have to work like heck to fly relative, but that's not true with (list a good TI or two), and offer to show him video, or suggest he chat with those other TI's about the issue. Be positive about the feedback and gauge his reaction. If he accepts the feedback and you think he'll seek assistance to meet a higher standard, then great.

Keep in mind that tandem jumping isn't cameraflying, and a TI is going to be more willing to accept feedback from another TI than a cameraperson (the same is true for AFF issues). You shouldn't try to teach him to do the exit, but rather illuminate the problem so he will want to seek assistance from an experienced TI or examiner.

If talking to the instructor isn't working, you need to bring it to the DZO or S&TA, or perhaps the manufacturer (last). I'd chat with the S&TA or DZO, and if possible show them a compilation of videos, again focusing on the troubles and making it clear you don't see similar problems with other TI's, and that's why you are concerned. Another option is to show the videos to another TI that the problem TI trusts and respects...that's a voice he may be more willing to listen to.

I used to be S&TA at a big DZ with more than a dozen TI's. We had a public viewing area where students would watch their videos after they landed. Occasionally somebody would tell me about a problem TI, and I would then arrange to be nearby the public screens so I could "stumble upon" the problem myself. Likewise we often had an examiner on the DZ so I'd ask him to walk by the video area and take a look at the screens with me. That way I protected the cameraperson from being a snitch. Once I had seen he issue on a public screen it was easy to approach the TI and talk about the specific video I happened to see, and explain that I had been hearing about the issue elsewhere, then offer improvement feedback.

There were also a few times where a video person showed me a tape of a problem instructor in the video room, and as soon as the concern was out in the open (still in the privacy of the video production room) the other cameraflyers joined in. It's important that you share the concern with somebody who can fix the problem, and perhaps it would help you if you first discuss it with a couple of other camera people to see if they are experiencing the same thing...there is power in numbers.

Finally, you have an obligation to future students and to the sport, to help correct the issue. And you have an obligation to yourself. It really sucks when there is an accident and you knew about the problem well in advance but didn't take action to fix it. Doing the right thing is sometimes hard, but you will sleep better, and as you age you will look back at those challenge points and appreciate how important they were.


(This post was edited by tombuch on Dec 8, 2009, 4:45 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 8, 2009, 6:44 AM
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Re: [tombuch] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would start with a conversation with the TI immediately after a bad jump.

Or maybe before, given that the guy's next bad jump might be really bad - if ya know what I mean.Wink


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 8, 2009, 2:23 PM
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Re: [tombuch] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes,

There are policies and procedures and hierarchies involved because lives are on the line, but some instructors have delicate egos.
The problem may be as simple as manifest assigning all the worst students to one instructor.
In most other businesses, that counts as discrimination.

Be very careful how you present the offending maneuvers to the offending TI, because they have delicate egos. If he tells you to "F$#@! OFF," offer to show the video to your local Safety & Training Advisor.
If he tells the local S&TA where to shove it ... show the offending video to the local Tandem Examiner.
If the offending TI offers to punch out the local TE, then tell manifest that you cannot keep him in frame, so please don't manifest both of you on the same load. This method confuses and slows manifest and usually gets the DZO's attention.
If that does not work, offer to show the offending video to the DZO.
Your last resort is mailing offensive video to the tandem manufacturer, who will recommend re-training or grounding of the offending instructor.
Remember to OFFER to show the offending video to the S&TA, regional TE and DZO before mailing it .... because if you don't, you will get fired!


hallux  (C License)

Dec 8, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

if he has over a 1000 tandems and he sucks that bad then he is a retard plain and simple. Most likely there is no hope for him because after 1000 jumps he should have figured it out by now or at least realized his retardedness and quit. Is he too stupid to be scared of his consistent lack of competance?
Tandems are not that hard. What kind of aircraft is it? Did he recently go from big turbine doors to cessna wiggle and squirm out?
I certainly hope that your evaluation of his skills are way misrepresting the truth of the matter.


tat2guy  (D 30000)

Dec 9, 2009, 12:45 PM
Post #9 of 48 (3453 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes,

There are policies and procedures and hierarchies involved because lives are on the line, but some instructors have delicate egos.
The problem may be as simple as manifest assigning all the worst students to one instructor.
In most other businesses, that counts as discrimination.

Be very careful how you present the offending maneuvers to the offending TI, because they have delicate egos. If he tells you to "F$#@! OFF," offer to show the video to your local Safety & Training Advisor.
If he tells the local S&TA where to shove it ... show the offending video to the local Tandem Examiner.
If the offending TI offers to punch out the local TE, then tell manifest that you cannot keep him in frame, so please don't manifest both of you on the same load. This method confuses and slows manifest and usually gets the DZO's attention.
If that does not work, offer to show the offending video to the DZO.
Your last resort is mailing offensive video to the tandem manufacturer, who will recommend re-training or grounding of the offending instructor.
Remember to OFFER to show the offending video to the S&TA, regional TE and DZO before mailing it .... because if you don't, you will get fired!

thanks for all the great input. this is why i havent said anything yet cause i feel he will think i have no buisness saying anything, he has been jumping for 20 years, all at the same dz. he has probaly close to 3500 jumps, and all the tandems are out of a cessna. i know its not just my observation, me and the other camera guy have talked about it. with how long he has been doing it has given him the role as the primary T.I so i didnt even think about the dangers tell another T.I saw one of my videos and pointed out how he deployed his drogue unstable.. thats when i realized the other T.Is never throw the drogue unstable.

im no T.I so this why i asked, i dont know if anyone has pointed it out to S&TA or DZO before, so i am glad i seeked advice here before doing anything. once again thanks for all the positive inputSmile


tat2guy  (D 30000)

Dec 9, 2009, 12:54 PM
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Re: [hallux] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

so i was thinking, if the T.I says to f*^$ off, what would be the best thing if the DZO doesnt do much in defense of him needing the T.I to do the work.


tigra  (C 27417)

Dec 9, 2009, 3:17 PM
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Re: [tat2guy] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew a DZO who made a point of watching tandem and student videos every week- maybe not all of them, but he made sure had had access to all of them and watched a pretty decent sampling. If he saw something he didn't like, he addressed it with the instructor directly. If he saw something he really didn't like, that TI was pulled from the rotation.

Bottom line though, if you don't like something at the DZ where you work, and the DZO isn't willing to change it, you can either deal with it or go work somewhere else. Pretty much the same where ever you work or whatever you do, right?


Psychonaut  (C License)

Dec 9, 2009, 4:24 PM
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Re: [tigra] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Has USPA ever thought of sending out instructors posing as tandem students to covertly evaluate TI's once every once in a while?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 9, 2009, 4:40 PM
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Re: [Psychonaut] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Psycho,

Quote:
Has USPA ever thought of sending out instructors posing as tandem students to covertly evaluate TI's once every once in a while?

Surely you jest.

JerryBaumchen


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 9, 2009, 5:54 PM
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Re: [hallux] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if he has over a 1000 tandems and he sucks that bad then he is a retard plain and simple. Most likely there is no hope for him because after 1000 jumps he should have figured it out by now


I have to agree with you. When I first read the OP, I pictured a very new, very short TI, who just couldn't get his little wings out in the breeze, and maybe wasn't really punching out an arch.

Then I read he's got 1000 tandems? I don't care how stubby you are, after 1000 you should be able to do that shit in your sleep. In the last five years I've watched a handful of guys get their ratings, and begin working as TIs, and none of them took more than 10 or 15 jumps before they were peeling exits off the plane smooth as silk, every time.

One of them regressed, and did some tumbling while they were trying to figure out how to do tandem gainers, but even then it was only a handful of jumps before it was dialed in.


Psychonaut  (C License)

Dec 9, 2009, 6:56 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Surely you jest.

JerryBaumchen

I'm sorry, what?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 9, 2009, 7:25 PM
Post #16 of 48 (3255 views)
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Re: [Psychonaut] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Psycho,

Quote:
Surely you jest.

JerryBaumchen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm sorry, what?

You have nothing in your profile to tell me where you are from. If you are from the USA and are quite new to jumping then you may be under the mistaken concept that USPA really goes out and does something.

You will learn, Grasshopper.

JerryBaumchen


Psychonaut  (C License)

Dec 9, 2009, 7:56 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

I am from USA..

I wasn't sure if they did anything similar to what I asked, hense why I asked Cool


rhys  (D 95)

Dec 9, 2009, 8:48 PM
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Re: [davelepka] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have to agree with you. When I first read the OP, I pictured a very new, very short TI, who just couldn't get his little wings out in the breeze, and maybe wasn't really punching out an arch.

This is an incorrect perception, my wife is only 110lbs and 5'4". she now has ove 700 tandems. she never was unstable for at least 300 tandems.

she was very eperienced bofre getting her ratin but is only 25 years old.

If the information we have been given is correct, this guy is obviously a kook, there is no excuse for someone to continously use thier drouge for satbility.

and he needs to perform a profiicienct test by a non partial examiner.

Who is brave enough?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 9, 2009, 9:16 PM
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Re: [rhys] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You're right man, I didn't mean to say that short people couldn't do tandems. I have worked with a couple of guys in the 5' 6" range, and they had no problems.

In the context of the story, that was just the picture that popped into my head. Any new TI would need a few jumps to get the hang of things, but it turned out the guy had 950 more tandems than I thought.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 10, 2009, 8:00 AM
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Re: [tat2guy] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

That is one of the dangers of becoming "a big fish in a small pond."
IOW If you do all your jumps at one DZ, you only learn one method.
Even worse, you might develop some bad habits and not even know it!
That is why instructors should visit other DZs to observe different methods.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Dec 10, 2009, 9:08 AM
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Re: [riggerrob] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is one of the dangers of becoming "a big fish in a small pond."
IOW If you do all your jumps at one DZ, you only learn one method.
Even worse, you might develop some bad habits and not even know it!
That is why instructors should visit other DZs to observe different methods
Very good point. I've seen that happen before.

And maybe they could just read the damn manual that says to be stable when pitching the drogue; don't use it to regain stability. The guy has to know he sucks. He just doesn't care.Crazy


tigra  (C 27417)

Dec 10, 2009, 10:23 AM
Post #22 of 48 (3065 views)
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Re: [Psychonaut] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Has USPA ever thought of sending out instructors posing as tandem students to covertly evaluate TI's once every once in a while?

LOL- how many experienced skydivers actually WANT to do tandems?


To the OP- maybe you can pick up a copy of the side spin video and quietly slip it in his locker along with some footage of him unstable? Scary stuff .........


Psychonaut  (C License)

Dec 10, 2009, 1:14 PM
Post #23 of 48 (3017 views)
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Re: [tigra] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
LOL- how many experienced skydivers actually WANT to do tandems?

Of course true, but I'm sure many would take on the job for the sake of safety concerning these TI's in question!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 10, 2009, 8:10 PM
Post #24 of 48 (2911 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
LOL- how many experienced skydivers actually WANT to do tandems?

Of course true, but I'm sure many would take on the job for the sake of safety concerning these TI's in question!

......................................................................

If Strong Enterprises or UPT or Jump Shack or USPA or some other alphabet group would pay my expenses, I would cheerfully spend the winter months visiting WARM DZs and pretending to be a gullible student.
The only problem is that my handsome face is too well known.
Hah!
Hah!


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 11, 2009, 5:39 AM
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Re: [Psychonaut] T.I. constantly unstable [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but I'm sure many would take on the job for the sake of safety concerning these TI's in question!

Did you even think about that before you posted it?

So there is a TI in question, and your solution is to take the time to send a 'spy' to the DZ, and have that person actually make a tandem with said TI?

You do realize that even Bill Booth could easily be killed as a passenger of an unsafe TI, right? You really think someone would step up and accept that job?

If there is a TI in question, the idea would be for them to NOT do anymore tandems until the 'questions' had been answered.

If there is no 'question' about a TI, your idea involves sending someone around the country doing tandems with random TIs. You never know which TI you're going to get at a given DZ, or if you're catching the guy on his best (or worst) day.

I'd suggest going back to the drawign board with your idea, but I don't think there's way to rework your plan and have to make sense. Sorry.


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