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(R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO.

 

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vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:02 PM
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(R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. Can't Post

So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..


(This post was edited by vortexr1 on Dec 5, 2009, 9:11 PM)


bfilarsky  (C 37619)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:20 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a canopy that YOU decided YOU couldn't safely land. You cut it away. I'd say you made the correct choice.

It is absolutely possible to land a canopy on rear risers, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the best decision for YOU.

Good job!


likearock  (D 24640)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:25 PM
Post #3 of 52 (4664 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You walked away - you did good.

What kind of canopy was it?


icevideot  (D 23833)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:26 PM
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Re: [vortexr1] STERRING LINE BRAKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

The sad truth is someone will always second guess your decisions and there doesn't seem to be a way around that.

First point, you made a decision and walked away so that leans toward it being a good decision. (At least in this case) I would say the same if you landed on rears and walked away.

One question that comes to mind is how rattled were you by the hard opening? You may have been aware that you were at 3300' but if you weren't able to accurately assess the condition of your main by 2500' you definitely made the right choice.

At your experience level, you should have some time practicing a flare with toggles unstowed on rear risers. If that is true you could make an informed decision on whether to land on rears or not. A stall on risers is much more abrupt than on toggles so I would not want my first attempt to be at the ground.

Were you one of my former students I would feel good about your decision and would ask you these questions only to prompt you to think ahead toward any future crisis that may occur.

In this sport time is often a luxury so considering situations and responses ahead of time is our best defense. You can never know ahead of time exactly what situation you will be faced with.

It is also more valuable to seek the opinions of the instructors and knowledgable jumpers you trust the most. They may give you alternatives to consider but ask them specifically what they think you did wrong and why they may think that.

At the end of the day remember, it is your butt on the line. Make your best decision and proceed with confidence. The life you save may be your own.

Sounds like a fine reaction to me.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #5 of 52 (4647 views)
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Re: [icevideot] STERRING LINE BRAKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Appreciate that . Im gonna practice some rear riser braking tomorrow and turns and really get a better feel for them...Thanks again.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 9:37 PM
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Re: [likearock] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Manta 210


Amazon  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #7 of 52 (4597 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..

You did great. You had a canopy that YOU decided was beyond your ability to land safely and you cut it away for a canopy that would get you down to the ground safely.. again.. well done.

I had a ParaFoil years ago that used to blow steering lines about every 10th jump so I got pretty good at landing it on rear risers. I did the same with a Triathlon a few years ago that had the toggle come loose from the steering line... no wind sunset load and a long spot out over a swamp.. I kept the canopy( I was SOOOOO not looking forward to trying to find it out in that swamp) after releasing the other toggle.. and doing basic control tests on the risers... so I kept it and flew it back to a brisk but good landing right where I needed to land. You may want to get with a good canopy instructor and have a chat on what you need to do to land on rears.. and work on it, so you know how in case you find yourself in that position again.


dninness  (D 19617)

Dec 5, 2009, 10:26 PM
Post #8 of 52 (4591 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to pile on, but if you thought it wasn't good enough to control and land, then you made a good decision.

Had a student in our program about 2 summers ago who thought she had a busted line on opening. (I think it was a blown toggle) She chopped it and landed the reserve. Good job.

Later, shitload of folks gave her a hard time about chopping it, but I told her "They were a half mile away from that canopy and not under it. You were 15 feet away and relying on it to get you to the ground. You made the decision you thought you needed to make with the information you had. And you were successful."

People need to chill the hell out sometimes. Geez.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Dec 5, 2009, 11:09 PM
Post #9 of 52 (4563 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you walking? If so, you did a fine job.

I have seen a student ride a bad, spiralling main all the way to impact. Thank heavens she landed in recently plowed, muddy (soft) field. She was badly hurt, but lived. You on the other hand, assessed the situation, made and executed a decision, and walked away... good job.

Now go do rear riser drills up high ....

--Turns with brakes stowed
--Turns with brakes UNstowed
--Flares
--Stalls (chat with an instructor about this before attempting it.)


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 5, 2009, 11:30 PM
Post #10 of 52 (4552 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I definitely will practice those rear riser drills.Thanks
Alot for the advice.


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Dec 6, 2009, 12:01 AM
Post #11 of 52 (4539 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure I'll get bashed by the all coddlers and sunshine blowers here, but I want you to live forever and maybe jump with you some day. Let me start by saying I'm glad you're alright, and that doing something is always better than doing nothing. That being said, if you were a low time jumper at my DZ and this happened, my 1st question would be "why did you immediately go to your emergency procedure on a low speed problem so far above decision altitude?" I know that you might think that the canopy was "diving hard", but if a broken steering line was your only problem, then you didn't really need to be in such a rush. If you have a toggle fire(toggle comes unstowed) it will do exactlty the same thing, and I know you don't want to cut away from an unstowed toggle. Your 1st instinct if your canopy opens in a turn should be to reach up and unstow both toggles, this will usually stop the turn and only takes a second. Once the canopy is flying straight, then re-evaluate. If you don't feel comfortable landing on your rear risers by your decision altitude, then by all means, cut away. Never 2nd guess your reserve, but don't to use it if you don't have to.

Happy jumping!


format  (B 15348)

Dec 6, 2009, 12:56 AM
Post #12 of 52 (4511 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My right steering toggle snapped...
My chute was diving to the RIGHT...

I'm curious, how come it was diving to the right?
Is that what normally happens - right toggle off and you turn right?
If so - why


377  (F 666)

Dec 6, 2009, 2:36 AM
Post #13 of 52 (4472 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with the majority who say you did the right thing. You had a main controllability problem, you cut away above your hard deck, you landed safely. End of discussion. Once you have done a successful cutaway it gives you a big boost in confidence. You know you can handle the stress.

377


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Dec 6, 2009, 3:21 AM
Post #14 of 52 (4455 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Manta 210


Quote:
You might have been jumping a 210, but I believe a Manta is 288 sq ft.


JohanW  (D 86318)

Dec 6, 2009, 4:10 AM
Post #15 of 52 (4434 views)
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Re: [wrightskyguy, format, vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Mantas come in 290 and 230; ZP Mantas come in 185, 200, 230, 260, 290 and 320. See the website. Either way, OP seems confused what exact canopy he was jumping.

I would expect a canopy with a broken right steering line and a left steering line still in half brakes to turn left, unless there is (invisible?) damage to the canopy, possibly as a result of the hard opening.

OP, I think you did good. There will always be someone second-guessing you, but especially the turn direction weirdness means either you or the canopy (or both) was not functioning as expected, which means you're a lot better off under a reserve with good steering lines.

Knowing how to land on rears may save you from cutting away a perfectly good canopy with less than stellar steering lines sometime in the future, but that's a decision only the canopy pilot who's there, then, can make. If you get to be that there then canopy pilot, it helps if you have practised rear riser manoeuvres before, under controlled circumstances.

(Some of this belongs in Safety and Training, some of this possibly in Gear and Rigging, some of this belongs right here in Incidents ..)


(This post was edited by JohanW on Dec 6, 2009, 4:11 AM)


Lucky...  (F 1)

Dec 6, 2009, 5:03 AM
Post #16 of 52 (4394 views)
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Re: [wrightskyguy] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure I'll get bashed by the all coddlers and sunshine blowers here, but I want you to live forever and maybe jump with you some day. Let me start by saying I'm glad you're alright, and that doing something is always better than doing nothing. That being said, if you were a low time jumper at my DZ and this happened, my 1st question would be "why did you immediately go to your emergency procedure on a low speed problem so far above decision altitude?" I know that you might think that the canopy was "diving hard", but if a broken steering line was your only problem, then you didn't really need to be in such a rush. If you have a toggle fire(toggle comes unstowed) it will do exactlty the same thing, and I know you don't want to cut away from an unstowed toggle. Your 1st instinct if your canopy opens in a turn should be to reach up and unstow both toggles, this will usually stop the turn and only takes a second. Once the canopy is flying straight, then re-evaluate. If you don't feel comfortable landing on your rear risers by your decision altitude, then by all means, cut away. Never 2nd guess your reserve, but don't to use it if you don't have to.

Happy jumping!

This is where I am. A reserve is only for mains that aren't flyable and landable. Good job, at 28 jumps I would have done the same thing. Hell, I did, I had a long snivelling main way early in the student program and chopped it; bad decision. But IMO that wasn't your best decision but it is great that you did make a decision, some just fight it or scream all the way down when a simple chop would have fixed it all. So I give you an 8.

I had a friend apparently not stow his toggles, or something like that when packing, and they both broke upon opening. We were real young jumpers, we opened at the same alti together and I flew to him, we opened around 6 to have more time to fly around, he was shitting his pants waving me away so I left. Anyway, I get down before him and watch him execute a rear riser flare. Kinda clumbsy, but it worked. He was seconds from making your decision and chopping too.

Did you have an RSL?

I always say, don't trade a good main for what could be a bad reserve; you can't reverse the trade.


Jumpah  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 6:58 AM
Post #17 of 52 (4296 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

You did fine...the main question is can you survive the landing? You evaluated, you decided, good for you. As you get more time in the sport you'll have more experience which will help develop other options you could choose that you would be comfortable with.

I had a steering line disconnect in my hand when I had about 50 jumps. Big student canopy, 210 or so. I had no significant turns with the good break unstowed, so I practiced rear riser flares until I entered the landing pattern. Aimed for soft grass, PLF'd the landing like I was taught. No big deal other than some grass stains.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:05 AM
Post #18 of 52 (4218 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a question. What were you taught to do in that situation on your first jump course? Now would seem like a good time to go over emergency procedures with your instructor. No one remembers everything from the fjc and now that your technical knowledge is more advanced more of those details will stick.
Don't forget to buy your friends beer.Wink


christelsabine  (D 10828)

Dec 6, 2009, 8:24 AM
Post #19 of 52 (4199 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So on my 3 rd and final jump of the day.. I pulled at 4000' had a VERY hard opening..( i was stable and in good position) people say it was because the nose wasnt tucked,,Anyways......My right steering toggle snapped upon deployment of the canopy...I reached for the left toggle..My chute was diving to the RIGHT.....I was at about 3300' and decided to cut away... When i landed we had tons to talk about..My question is,, DID i do the right thing? Some said i should of used the rear risers..I didnt really think to much about it,,I saw the problem and decided to cut away.. I have never landed with my rear risers and felt more comfortable cutting away...I have only 28 jumps..Just curious what everyone thinks....Damn crazy when you have to decided to cut away..lol..

Well done. Your decision, your life. You safed your a**, that's all what's counting. Congrats. Go on like that and never lose altitude awareness.

Smile


jtval  (D 26340)

Dec 6, 2009, 9:35 AM
Post #20 of 52 (4126 views)
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Re: [format] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My right steering toggle snapped...
My chute was diving to the RIGHT...

I'm curious, how come it was diving to the right?
Is that what normally happens - right toggle off and you turn right?
If so - why


I'm curious about this,too. Could have been other damage, it could have been a brain fart while typing the incident.

vortexr1,
The main thing is that you are safe. Good job.
But the important thing is that I hope your learned something. Hindsight is always 20/20 but if I was your AFF/DZO/S&TA/friend I would be concerned with the knowledge you are equipped with.
Let me start by saying you definitely did the right thing FOR YOU in a moment of uncertainty.


But a few things can be learned from this situation.
Ask yourself these questions WHILE YOU ARE ON THE GROUND
Was there something else I could have done?

In this situation you could have released the still stowed toggle and re-assessed the situation.
However, I will continue to say this- YOU DID THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU at the time.
Under a malfunctioning canopy is NEVER the time to second guess yourself and your training.

What if this type of thing happens again?

Ever hear someone say I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the sky than be in the sky wishing I was on the ground? These incident forums are good for learning about a situation somebody else experienced and then asking yourself, "what would I have done?"
I suggest to my students that they read these forums and sift through the FACTS. I encourage them to discuss this with our staff. That being said, I don't want them to read this forum until they have a full understanding of the procedures and possible malfunctions since many times people "think on their feet" in order to save their lives. You need a solid basis for knowledge and muscle memory in order to be prepared for a quick reaction time to a less than desirable situation.


Are you prepared with enough training to handle some malfunction on your very next jump?
The good thing is that you now know you have the confidence to break away from a malfunction. And while it was said above "you should never second guess your reserve," what if you cutaway and you had a broken toggle on the reserve?
Now, you are in the same situation but at a lower altitude.
I will echo it again. YOU DID THE RIGHT THING FOR YOU at the time. I am not trying to attack you, though it may seem that way over the internet.
I am just trying to spark some questions/discussion that may have already come up for you in real life.


When was the last time you spoke about the scary side of skydiving?

Hopefully, You have already spoken to and discussed this with your AFFI/DZO/S&TA/everyone else.
There is so much more to discuss but the internet is not the place for it. I am sure you have folks there who will sit down and talk with you as often and as much as you need.

Good job on making a decision that allowed you to walk away safely from your malfunctioning canopy!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2009, 9:35 AM
Post #21 of 52 (4124 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

>When i landed we had tons to talk about..

Some other things to think about -

If your canopy was open (i.e. your freefall had stopped) you have some time to sort things out. If you have any questions as to whether it's landable or not, you can do a control check, which I'm sure you have been taught. It's generally straight - turn - flare (after releasing brakes) and if you can do that it's _generally_ safe to land.

If it was spinning violently, (and that's _spinning_ not turning) then it's pretty clear that you have a major problem, and you may not want to take the time to do the above.

If it's just turning, and you can control it 100% with toggles, and there are no other problems, you probably want to keep it. If you have to do something odd to control it (pull down on a riser to keep it flying straight) then you should think about whether or not you can land it like that. Can you turn right and left? Can you get it to flare at all? Does canopy size + wind mean you can land without a flare? That's always a judgment call.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 10:28 AM
Post #22 of 52 (4067 views)
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Re: [jtval] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks alot for all that.. Im actually sittin at the DZ waitin for the weather to warm up a bit..Ive discussed the whole jump amd alternatives with my instrictors and other jumpers...I really appreciate all the responses and knowledge ive gained here...Just trying to gain more experience and lnowledge..Thanks


CMiller  (B 30864)

Dec 6, 2009, 11:40 AM
Post #23 of 52 (4001 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had this very same thing happen to me. Find out if you can control the canopy. If you release the other brake and your canopy flies straight, then just use the rear risers to control your canopy. This is what happened in my case; the left brake line broke, but the canopy could still fly and be controlled with riser input.

If your brake line snaps and the canopy starts spinning out of control, it's obvious what to do.

It's really no different than any other type of malfunction. Just ask yourself "Can I probably land this safely?" if the answer is no, you should use your reserve.


shropshire  (C License)

Dec 6, 2009, 1:21 PM
Post #24 of 52 (3917 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion.... another plus point is that you now have the knowledge of what it is to cut away and use your reseve... Which I'm sure has increased your confidence/knowledge.

Welcome to the club.


vortexr1  (D License)

Dec 6, 2009, 2:51 PM
Post #25 of 52 (3852 views)
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Re: [shropshire] (R)STEERING LINE BROKE TODAY,,WHAT WOULD YOU DO. [In reply to] Can't Post

just got done doin my hop n pop from 3500' .i have to say it was alittle
nerve rackin after doin a cut away yesterday..lol..everything went great..practiced my rear riser turns and flaring..Thanks again for all the advice..


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