Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
TSO vs JTSO in Europe

 


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 4, 2003, 9:53 AM
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TSO vs JTSO in Europe Can't Post

question to the Euro folks arround here:

the official European certification standart is JTSO C23d, technicaly it seems to *very* similar to the TSO C23d (if not the same). Most of the US gear is TSO but not JTSO approved because the most US manufacturer don't make the paper work to become JTSO approved (that's all they would need to open the door)

Down here in France we can not legaly jump a no JTSO gear (unless it's JAR21, just for french stuff, forget it). If you have an incident with a TSO gear, the french insurance can claim that you didn't jump a "legal" JTSO rig and refuse to pay a single euro.

Question is: how does it work in the other European countries ? Can you jump the US TSO gear ?

thanks for input
Alain

the JTSO web site is
http://www.jaa.nl

PS: I'm not quite sure in safety and training is the right place to post this, but I can't figure where else ?


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Feb 5, 2003, 1:38 AM
Post #2 of 10 (1664 views)
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Re: [alain] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

"Can you jump the US TSO gear ?"

As far as I'm aware yes, otherwise, a whole lot of us are in trouble...Many Euros (I would say the majority of us), like myself, jump American origin equipment, this is the first I've heard about this.

"the french insurance can claim that you didn't jump a "legal" JTSO rig and refuse to pay a single euro"

This may be a peculiarity with the French, they do get kinda nationalistic about some things, fortunately I use UK insurance companies...


Bruno

Feb 5, 2003, 7:01 AM
Post #3 of 10 (1646 views)
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Re: [alain] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

In Italy, according to civil aviation authority, a rig must have a jtso OR tso to be legal
Bruno


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 5, 2003, 9:57 AM
Post #4 of 10 (1625 views)
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Re: [nacmacfeegle] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This may be a peculiarity with the French, they do get kinda nationalistic about some things

that's precisely what I'm pointing: I suspect the french manufacturer to give some lobby input on this, which clearly sux Unsure

any German jumpers arround ???

Alain


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Feb 5, 2003, 4:29 PM
Post #5 of 10 (1604 views)
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Re: [alain] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

Wasn't a problem when I lived there, but I left in 1995. A German once told me I couldn't buy my gear overseas (i.e. USA) because no German rigger would put the "Gurtesiegel" (Harness seal) on it or do reserve repacks unless customs was paid. I said as a government contractor on military status, I'm not subject to such taxes. I had my reserve repacked by a couple different German riggers, and was never asked about a "Gurtesiegel" at any DZ, so if it's really a rule, it isn't enforced.
Given how many Germans jump US gear, I'd be surprised of they enforced the JTSO thing either.

(Slight digression coming) Rules in general vary greatly from country to country, including who issues rigger ratings, what rating you need to do stuff and what standards have to be met. For instance, you need to be a rigger to modify a main (including put it on risers) in some countries (such as Canada), but these rules and the rigger ratings are issued by CSPA.

Peter


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Feb 6, 2003, 12:15 AM
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped American gear in Germany (Rhine DZ) last year, but they may have treated me as a 'visitor'..

"Rules in general vary greatly from country to country, including who issues rigger ratings, what rating you need to do stuff and what standards have to be met."

This is why its such a good idea to have your local rigger give your rig a complete check prior to taking it abroad. Apart from the fact that trying to get your rig fixed for some minor thing like velcro, can be a real pain in the pooper.


blueshrew

Feb 17, 2003, 2:51 AM
Post #7 of 10 (1518 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump in Germany and use US gear. I've never heard any inssues about JTSO vs TSO.
I am supposing that if there was anything not "legal" about jumping a TSOed rig, you wouldn't get a Guetesiegel (seal of approval, not Gurtesiegel <- no such thing ;)), and I have one for all of my gear.


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 17, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Re: [blueshrew] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

tnaks for input Smile
Alain


DutchSkyCam  (D 22224)

Feb 17, 2003, 4:03 PM
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Re: [alain] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

What are the major brand of gear in the states?
Javelin, Mirage, Vector, Teardrop, etc...

What are the major brands of gear in Europe?
Javelin, Aton, Vector, Mirage, etc...

Most reputable US brands are JTSO'ed... Or 80% of the European skydivers would breach regulations, since they are jumping -above mentioned- US gear.

Barry


alain  (C 97601)

Feb 18, 2003, 9:43 AM
Post #10 of 10 (1470 views)
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Re: [DutchSkyCam] TSO vs JTSO in Europe [In reply to] Can't Post

here's what I've found:

JTSO:

- advance (container by Parafun)
- Atom (several containers by parachutes de france, not all of them are JTSO, some are only JAR21 and therefore "legal" only in france)
- Omega (container by Performance variable)

- techno (reserve canopy by parachute de france, not all size are JTSO, some are only JAR21)
- quick (reserve canopy by Performance variable, duno if all sizes are JTSO)

Speed reserve (germany made), I duno. I'd say probably.

I guess that's about it...

Javelin, Mirage, Vector, Talon, Vodoo, PDreserve, Tempo (PISA), Raven, (...) are not as far as I know JTSO.
I would be happy if anyone could deny me on this.

The fact that many euro skydivers (me included) are jumping US gear does not mean that it's JTSO, but that the JTSO regulation is not strictly enforced. At least, that's what happens in France: nobody clearly knows where we stand. That's why I'm asking to you what the officials say regarding this point in other euro countries, just to compare and make an idea of how great euro regulations are, sometimes... Unimpressed

Alain



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