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Elsinore formation

 

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kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 19, 2009, 8:15 AM
Post #151 of 184 (1764 views)
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Re: [Sangi] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How come this 68 way is considered a record when there was a 71 way before? If it doesn't beat the previous one, it isn't a record? Crazy

Which organization certified the 71-way as a record?


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 19, 2009, 8:17 AM
Post #152 of 184 (1759 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

dizziedotcom!


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 19, 2009, 8:33 AM
Post #153 of 184 (1748 views)
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Re: [normiss] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
dizziedotcom!

Oh, OK.Laugh


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Nov 19, 2009, 9:51 AM
Post #154 of 184 (1710 views)
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Re: [normiss] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

The "expressed" reason for taking the 71 way to the USPA was to get it recognized as a record.
What actually happened is entirely a different story.

It seems works out perfectly either way. The 71 way is accepted as a formation, but then the rules changed midstream and "buffers" were added to the grid. So...had the 100 way not materialized (it didn't) then the 71 way stands. Except....the 68 way did materialize from the 100 way, so it stands. But had it not materialized, the 71 way would be the record.
And...the 71 way is still the largest assembled formation in the world whether recognized by FAI, FAA, USPA, MickeyD's, or anyone else.

Both formations are very cool, and examples of good flying, IMO.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Nov 19, 2009, 9:52 AM
Post #155 of 184 (1709 views)
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Re: [pierre3636] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe this thread has something to do with it. Wink
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3616314#3616314


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 19, 2009, 10:36 AM
Post #156 of 184 (1694 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe this thread has something to do with it. Wink
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3616314#3616314

Did the 71-way fit "the grid"? I've only seen one picture of it with the grid superimposed and it looks to me as if one person is outside their extended box.

Anyone?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Nov 19, 2009, 10:47 AM
Post #157 of 184 (1686 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Maybe this thread has something to do with it. Wink
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3616314#3616314

Did the 71-way fit "the grid"? I've only seen one picture of it with the grid superimposed and it looks to me as if one person is outside their extended box.

Anyone?

According to the USPA-designated "Field Expert" on wingsuiting, the 71 way fit the USPA criteria in ppost 19

Unfortunately, members of the USPA BOD are just as confused about grid interpretation as you seem to be.


Buried  (D License)

Nov 19, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #158 of 184 (1615 views)
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Re: [DSE] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:

It seems works out perfectly either way. The 71 way is accepted as a formation, but then the rules changed midstream and "buffers" were added to the grid. So...had the 100 way not materialized (it didn't) then the 71 way stands. Except....the 68 way did materialize from the 100 way, so it stands. But had it not materialized, the 71 way would be the record.
And...the 71 way is still the largest assembled formation in the world whether recognized by FAI, FAA, USPA, MickeyD's, or anyone else.

Marketing at it's best. let's rename/rebrand it and do it again!


Quote:
$354 x 70 = $24,780
it's not that simple which is why I asked , not assumed, out of the curiosity of myself and others. plus there were 11 covered slots or so.


Quote:
The 71 was also judged on a gird and we were told that it was successful.


yes it fit what they had as the grid. unofficial or not, it's technicalities. Actually that grid probably harder since it didn't have the 'buffer zone'. It seems to me uspa comp manual on national records says nothing about dates or time frames. it asks that the USPA is notified before and after the attempt and signatures. Since the USPA was notified before last year bother before and after, couldn't you technically apply the new grid, get signatures, send video and have that be the record?

68 way - official national record
71 way - unofficial national and unofficial world record


71way had at least 5-6 alternates.
75way, later a 68 way, had no alts and was the formational more thought through in terms of making it easier to put together (no long wings).

Either way it's about as official as the POPS record RTS also touts on the website.POPS won't recognize anything that small.
Quote:
"the parachutists over forty years old in this formation went off right afterwards to go and set a POPS (Parachutists Over Phorty Society) record of their own!"


Zeemax

Nov 20, 2009, 1:13 AM
Post #159 of 184 (1512 views)
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Re: [Buried] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
$354 x 70 = $24,780
it's not that simple which is why I asked , not assumed, out of the curiosity of myself and others. plus there were 11 covered slots or so.

There was also various financial donations from business, corporate sponsorships, private donations, contributions from the DZ, breakfast was laid on by Starbucks etc... In fact, i'm pretty sure my jump ticket price guess was a bit high as well, so that frees up some more cash. There was more money in the pot than just the registrants fee, so there would have been more than ample to make that donation Smile

Actually, is raise the sky (or similar) a registered company? Their books / accounts would then be public and you could see where the money came from / went if you're interested Smile


repcool  (D 30916)

Nov 20, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #160 of 184 (1426 views)
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Re: [Zeemax] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

 
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

I think if you have a specific question you should address it to the Board of Directors who are clearly listed on the website. I think that would get you quicker answers than throwing around comments on a forum.


Zeemax

Nov 20, 2009, 8:53 AM
Post #161 of 184 (1423 views)
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Re: [repcool] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

Ah cool, sorry. Didn't realise that bit Smile


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Nov 20, 2009, 9:21 AM
Post #162 of 184 (1396 views)
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Re: [Zeemax] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

Ah cool, sorry. Didn't realise that bit Smile

NPO or not, I don't think the financials are anyone's business. No one needs to know how much this event profited anyone, it's a business just like any other. It's none of my business how much you made last year any more than it's your business how much I made last year. NPO's allow for administrative fees to be part of the program, as fundraisers have to make a living too. There is nothing that says administrators of an NPO must be volunteers.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2009, 10:03 AM
Post #163 of 184 (1376 views)
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Re: [DSE] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

Ah cool, sorry. Didn't realise that bit Smile

NPO or not, I don't think the financials are anyone's business. No one needs to know how much this event profited anyone, it's a business just like any other. It's none of my business how much you made last year any more than it's your business how much I made last year. NPO's allow for administrative fees to be part of the program, as fundraisers have to make a living too. There is nothing that says administrators of an NPO must be volunteers.

Right, if the admins of NPOs had to be unpaid volunteers we'd have no private universities and colleges (think Harvard, MIT, Princeton), major museums, symphony orchestras, etc. in this country.


WernerP  (D 106348)

Nov 20, 2009, 11:13 AM
Post #164 of 184 (1344 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

You have universities in the U.S.?
Damn..........


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2009, 11:47 AM
Post #165 of 184 (1322 views)
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Re: [WernerP] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have universities in the U.S.?
Damn..........

Since you asked:

International Student and International Faculty Factors Weightings and Statistical Scores About the World's Best Universities Rankings
Rank Overall Score
1 Harvard University
United States
100.0
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
100 Student to Faculty Score
98 International Faculty Score
85 International Students Score
78 Citations per Faculty Score
100
2 University of Cambridge
United Kingdom
99.6
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
100 Student to Faculty Score
100 International Faculty Score
98 International Students Score
96 Citations per Faculty Score
89
3 Yale University
United States
99.1
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
99 Student to Faculty Score
100 International Faculty Score
85 International Students Score
77 Citations per Faculty Score
94
4 UCL (University College London)
United Kingdom
99.0
Academic Peer Review Score
98 Employer Review Score
99 Student to Faculty Score
100 International Faculty Score
96 International Students Score
99 Citations per Faculty Score
90
5 Imperial College London
United Kingdom
97.8
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
100 Student to Faculty Score
100 International Faculty Score
98 International Students Score
100 Citations per Faculty Score
80
5 University of Oxford
United Kingdom
97.8
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
100 Student to Faculty Score
100 International Faculty Score
96 International Students Score
97 Citations per Faculty Score
80
7 University of Chicago
United States
96.8
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
99 Student to Faculty Score
97 International Faculty Score
77 International Students Score
83 Citations per Faculty Score
88
8 Princeton University
United States
96.6
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
96 Student to Faculty Score
82 International Faculty Score
89 International Students Score
81 Citations per Faculty Score
100
9 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
United States
96.1
Academic Peer Review Score
100 Employer Review Score
100 Student to Faculty Score
89 International Faculty Score
31 International Students Score
95 Citations per Faculty Score
100
10 California Institute of Technology (Caltech)
United States
95.


Zeemax

Nov 20, 2009, 1:25 PM
Post #166 of 184 (1277 views)
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Re: [DSE] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

Ah cool, sorry. Didn't realise that bit Smile

NPO or not, I don't think the financials are anyone's business. No one needs to know how much this event profited anyone, it's a business just like any other. It's none of my business how much you made last year any more than it's your business how much I made last year. NPO's allow for administrative fees to be part of the program, as fundraisers have to make a living too. There is nothing that says administrators of an NPO must be volunteers.

Of course not. I think my confusion was that I thought the whole thing was for charity, not that people were making money out of it.

No worries, I'll leave this one be Smile


Buried  (D License)

Nov 20, 2009, 1:35 PM
Post #167 of 184 (1271 views)
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Re: [DSE] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If you read raisethesky.org you will see that it is 501(c)3 registered entity, a non-profit. From my perspective that means that any money I donate to the entity is eligible for a receipt and tax exemption.

Ah cool, sorry. Didn't realise that bit Smile

NPO or not, I don't think the financials are anyone's business. No one needs to know how much this event profited anyone, it's a business just like any other. It's none of my business how much you made last year any more than it's your business how much I made last year. NPO's allow for administrative fees to be part of the program, as fundraisers have to make a living too. There is nothing that says administrators of an NPO must be volunteers.

yes, they can legally take wages, reimbursements, advertisements, overhead, buy assets, etc out of the $ you donated to them. When they file a 990, they will also have to report the top ten paid/compensated individuals, which would be public... JFTC is no different.

but either way, that's not what or why I asked. As long as a fair portion of every dollar raised goes to charity, who cares what they do if you choose to participate in their events.

I asked what the actual total was since 5k was unexpected for 70+ people and makes it seem like some people didn't pay a donation in order to jump...

so I'm wondering if future events donations will be optional and if not, I pose the question should the US records be always associated with raise the sky or should they have their own fund raising events?. JFTC has their own nitch and can, but not always produce records.


(This post was edited by Buried on Nov 20, 2009, 1:40 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2009, 2:33 PM
Post #168 of 184 (1245 views)
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Re: [Buried] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

so I'm wondering if future events donations will be optional and if not, I pose the question should the US records be always associated with raise the sky or should they have their own fund raising events?. JFTC has their own nitch and can, but not always produce records.

Anyone is entitled to host a record event. I have hosted 2 POPS RW records and plan to host a SOS record soon. The hard part is getting qualified jumpers to participate if you have no previous track record of success. You don't need any prior permission or anything like that.

Edited to add: it is a huge amount of work, we should all be grateful to those who put in their time to do it.


(This post was edited by kallend on Nov 20, 2009, 2:34 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Nov 20, 2009, 2:47 PM
Post #169 of 184 (1233 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Anyone is entitled to host a record event. I have hosted 2 POPS RW records and plan to host a SOS record soon. The hard part is getting qualified jumpers to participate if you have no previous track record of success. You don't need any prior permission or anything like that.

Did you charge above/beyond slots for this events?
Did you donate to a charity at these events?
Was there a personal financial gain at these events?
What sort of outside sponsorship/donations helped fund your event?


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 20, 2009, 7:02 PM
Post #170 of 184 (1162 views)
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Re: [DSE] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Anyone is entitled to host a record event. I have hosted 2 POPS RW records and plan to host a SOS record soon. The hard part is getting qualified jumpers to participate if you have no previous track record of success. You don't need any prior permission or anything like that.

Did you charge above/beyond slots for this events?
Yes, we charged a small registration fee primarily to cover the costs of: ferrying in the extra planes, tee shirts, to cover the video slots and making and mailing the event DVD, and the cost of a catered barbeque.

In reply to:
Did you donate to a charity at these events?

No, that was not one of the objectives.

In reply to:


Was there a personal financial gain at these events?

No, none of the plane captains were professional skydivers, we did it for fun. I don't think any of the POPS or SOS events are done for profit.

In reply to:


What sort of outside sponsorship/donations helped fund your event?

We got some donations for the goodie bags from the pro-shop at the DZ, and several wives volunteered their time as helpers. My son and I donated the event web site. Nothing major, no money was donated.


SwampGod  (D 27345)

Nov 21, 2009, 12:28 AM
Post #171 of 184 (1122 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello all! I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts, as no matter what there is always something to be learned from people's feedback. While sometimes random speculation makes for good brainstorming, we might as well get everyone on the same page, so the feedback can be more applicable to the present situation. So let me attempt to clarify just a bit...

I certainly hope Raise the Sky is connecting skydivers of all sorts with charities of all sorts for a long time. In order for that to happen, I do expect someone will have to start getting paid for what is amounting to a full time job.

In the meantime, as a Board Member of Raise the Sky, I can report that I do not draw a salary, and do not expect to anytime in the near future. While not a formal "donation," it cost me money to come to Elsinore, make no jumps before the event ended, and attend to all requests that landed in my lap. (For me, there was no request too small, as it meant everyone was running as close as possible to their full potential.)

For the record, the money out of my pocket has been worth it, even if I never get reimbursed for purchasing everyone's breakfast cereal and coffee creamers. I look at this like any loss leader-- this is an investment in the organization's future, and an investment in bringing skydiving to other charities. Maybe someday we'll have the ability to pay our worthy staff, but for now... not so much.

Taya has been overwhelmed this week with writing and sending off articles, handling accounting issues with the drop zone, and her completely unnoticed work with Steve's family after the fatality. So please have some patience if you aren't able to find those exact numbers in the public reports immediately. Though trust me, the IRS and our charity sponsors are also quite interested in the numbers.

In the meantime, if you must do the math, be fair... slot prices were closer to $24, breakfast included fresh fruit every morning on top of the yummy cereal and mini muffins, pizza wasn't free.... nor is printing at Staples, dinner for the whole crew, shirts, etc, etc, etc.

Now if we simply got that keg back, we'd be able to return the deposit to the drop zone, and THEN we'd be rollin' in the Benjamins! Tongue

As we continue to wrap up the 2009 wingsuit record, we are starting to look forward. As before, this is an open call to everyone for suggestions of charities that you'd like to see get our support. I'd also be open to hearing ideas for other events that might be a good fit. While most of the Board members are avid wingsuiters, I (gasp) only have 4 wingsuit jumps and (double gasp) also think other skydiving disciplines are worthy of charitable components. My point (before I get tarred and feathered), is that any and all suggestions are good ones to me.

I've also heard some interest from people who would like to actually donate their time in a hands-on way. If this interests you, contact any of the folks you see on the Raise the Sky website, or sign up for the newsletter. If you met me at the event, you know that I will listen to all suggestions and do what I can to accommodate people.

To respond to most people's first suggestion, I am in the process of assembling a rig for wingsuiting so I can stop borrowing canopies when I want to jump my.... well, the wingsuit I will soon be able to call mine. Cool

Thanks to all for your continued interest and support! I'll end my long-winded piece now!!!

-eli


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Nov 21, 2009, 8:42 AM
Post #172 of 184 (1042 views)
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Re: [SwampGod] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Eli,
you did a kick ass job at the event. It was curious to see you on-camera one moment and running for water and sundries the next moment.
Thanks for the jump you did with us. I didn't know you only had four!
Howzabout no more trips to Ontario via LAX?Laugh


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 22, 2009, 7:13 AM
Post #173 of 184 (945 views)
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Re: [SwampGod] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Eli (and others),

In case my previous posts did not make this clear, I have absolutely no problems at all with the event, the organizers, the captains, the cost, the charity...

The cost was quite in line with what I've come to expect from RW big way events, and less than many.

I'd like to thank the organizers and captains for putting in the time and effort to make it all work.


SwampGod  (D 27345)

Nov 22, 2009, 1:01 PM
Post #174 of 184 (862 views)
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Re: [kallend] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi John!

You've been great, no worries!! Truly, any feedback is welcome in my book. And your posts have always been thought out, and in my limited experience very positive.

More than a few people were curious about the structure of the event. As you mentioned in your posts, some of our greatest institutions are non-profits with paid staff. It's also true that some events succeed with a tiny budget. Since there was some confusion as to where this event sat in that spectrum, and since what we're talking about is in no way a state secret, I did my best to answer. I think your "reply" button happened to be the closest when I did.

Again, all suggestions are welcome. Spot's thankless task this event gave us the following entry in the Suggestion Box:

As a courtesy to the people coming to pick them up, please make sure skydivers check their destination airport before they physically take off. We've discovered after rigorous testing that unless there are prior arrangements with the airline to get a jump run and open door, it's quite difficult to pick someone up if they are in a different city. Tongue

-eli


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Nov 22, 2009, 1:15 PM
Post #175 of 184 (858 views)
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Re: [SwampGod] Elsinore formation [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad you took that suggestion to heart. Tongue
While you're taking suggestions, I'd like to suggest that if you publish a document that says you're taking registrations until 6pm on Saturday, that you actually *do* take registrations until 6pm on Saturday.

What's querious is that captains were running/calling around on Sunday night (the day after Saturday) looking for others to register because the formation needed bodies.


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