Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
AAD for CReW

 

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Baksteen  (C 708753)

Oct 30, 2009, 1:12 AM
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AAD for CReW Can't Post

In the incidents forum, Skypuppy wrote:
In reply to:
..I really believe aads have the potential to be detrimental if used on crw jumps. I know many crwdogs that don't like them. Talking to some of the crwdogs from the world meet in France, where aads were mandatory, they didn't like them and they didn't turn them on, anyways! So what's the use of making them mandatory for crw? Not to mention the cost of putting them on the rigs we loan out to people.

I was curious why people would mislike AADs for CReW specifically.

I understand the cost issue, but that is an argument which is always used against AAD use - and not a very good one either, in my humble opinion.Blush

I did a quick search of this forum and found an old thread started by Bubbles in which someone mentioned low downplanes, but that cannot be the only reason, can it? Smile


Chubba  (A 10160)

Oct 30, 2009, 5:46 AM
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Re: [Baksteen] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Would it make sense for CRW jumpers to use the speed model if any?

Just throwing this out there for some repsonses, I'm quite interested.


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Oct 30, 2009, 6:31 AM
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Re: [Baksteen] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I don't want my reserve firing unless I give the command. An AAD is a computer & while modern AADs are very reliable, I have had a "modern" AAD misfire & deploy my reserve while under a fully functioning main canopy. I don't want that happening while in a CRW formation.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Oct 30, 2009, 9:02 AM
Post #4 of 35 (2807 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from planned low downplanes, the reasoning I've heard goes mostly like this: If I'm in a jam (eh, wrap) and low, I want to be able to make my own decision when to pull my reserve.
My take on that: if you're so low the AAD is gonna fire and going at a speed that triggers it, you do not HAVE any more time to do something yourself and any fabric you can get it a bonus!

I did do a couple dozen AAD-less jumps and most of those happened to be CRW jumps, but with borrowed rigs. I can understand someone not putting AADs in spare loaner rigs that are not used by newbies (or people without a C license, per regulations over here). But not putting in an AAD in a CRW rig you regularly jump because it might fire when you don't want it to? For your own choice fine but I think that's a dangerous mindset to tell new CRW jumpers, somewhat similar to people not trusting RSL and telling 20-something jumpers not to buy a rig with one... These days, for CRW jumpers, can't see a reason NOT to jump with a modern AAD (cypres/vigil2/argus).

And if anyone got away with not turning on their AAD in France you were crafty, as people were watching, also you were breaking competition rules. Not something I'd be proud of...


CReW  (D License)

Oct 30, 2009, 11:20 AM
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Re: [dragon2] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped one once, on my first freefall.
Might have had to on my second freefall but they couldn't find it.
There was only one on the airport.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Oct 30, 2009, 1:58 PM
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Re: [CReW] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Has there been a CRW fatality where an AAD would have made a difference? Not that I can think of, but I am willing to be enlightened.

top


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 30, 2009, 8:28 PM
Post #7 of 35 (2728 views)
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Re: [topdocker] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly. An AAD misfire on a freefall jump - you end up with 2 out. An AAD fires on a CRW jump - your reserve just went through your friends lines and you now have no good canopies left available to work with.

Modern AADs are designed to NOT fire if you have anything at all out. CRWdogs die because they have too much out - wrapped canopies etc. Assuming that you can get out of an airplane and pull without killing yourself on the tail, a modern AAD should never fire on a CRW jump.

So if it works like it is supposed to - it will never fire and be of no help. If it misfires (and they definitely have) you'll probably die from the AAD-induced wrap. The risks outweigh the benefits..

And there were a bunch of CRWdogs who didn't turn on their AADs in France. The vast majority of CRWdogs I know of think the risks outweigh the benefits. Heck - there were a bunch of cases a while back of radios firing Cypreses - SSK seemed to have fixed the problem - but all 100 people on the last world record were wearing radios in tight formation. Can you imagine an AAD misfire in the middle of that thing? It could have killed a bunch of people. Admittedly the odds are low, but there have been AAD misfires and if you're in a CRW formation and your AAD fires, your odds are low of survival.


parachutist  (D 25468)

Oct 30, 2009, 9:47 PM
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Re: [topdocker] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Has there been a CRW fatality where an AAD would have made a difference? Not that I can think of, but I am willing to be enlightened.

top

I believe there was:
http://www.dropzone.com/...orum.cgi?post=144397

Chris


skypuppy  (D 347)

Oct 31, 2009, 3:07 AM
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Re: [parachutist] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

The article says

Foster, who had more than 4,000 jumps to his credit, likely died upon impact with the plane, fire Capt. James Judkins Jr. said.


So an aad in all liklihood would not have helped....


parachutist  (D 25468)

Oct 31, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #10 of 35 (2648 views)
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Re: [skypuppy] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The article says

Foster, who had more than 4,000 jumps to his credit, likely died upon impact with the plane, fire Capt. James Judkins Jr. said.


So an aad in all liklihood would not have helped....

Fire Captain, not Coroner. IMO the guy was just talking. I know one other jumper who had a very similar head impact with same type of aircraft. She woke up in a tree because her Cypres fired. Incidents I've read show that impacts with horizontal stabilizers of typical skydiving aircraft don't usually cause death.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Oct 31, 2009, 8:51 PM
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Re: [parachutist] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

I for one would like to know, which was it impact with plane causing death or impact on ground. Fire Chief does not have the final say of cause, he was just giving his opinion. prob was asked by a reporter who didn't know anything and needed a OFFICAL that was responding to the call. Would really like to know, anybody have access to the FACTS and not opinions?Cool


skypuppy  (D 347)

Nov 1, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #12 of 35 (2550 views)
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Re: [parachutist] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Fire Captain, not Coroner. IMO the guy was just talking. I know one other jumper who had a very similar head impact with same type of aircraft. She woke up in a tree because her Cypres fired. Incidents I've read show that impacts with horizontal stabilizers of typical skydiving aircraft don't usually cause death.
_______________________________________________

Like Scoobiedoo said, you want to find the coroner's report and post it we'll all know. Otherwise it comes down to do I believe the fire captain's opinion (who was there) or yours -- from your hearing of lots of other incidents similar....


topdocker  (D 12018)

Nov 2, 2009, 8:29 AM
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Re: [skypuppy] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Wendy's assessment, risks outweigh the benefits.

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kkeenan  (D 22164)

Nov 2, 2009, 10:56 AM
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Re: [topdocker] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Has there been a CRW fatality where an AAD would have made a difference?

In the recent CRW accident at Lodi, the descent rate is not known. So who's to know if the vertical velocity was enough to trigger an AAD. However, no reserves were activated.

I realize that AAD use is a controversial topic in the CRW world. It comes down to individual choice. I choose to use an AAD on my CRW rig. My thoughts are that at 750 ft and 78 mph, most of the operational choices in the situation have been made and things are not looking good. More nylon could hardly make things worse.

Inadvertant activation of AADs has happened. That cannot be disputed. However, I have been in the air with a lot of jumpers with AADs over the years, and have never seen it happen. That may influence my perception that the liklihood approaches zero.

In CRW, we all make decisions and take actions which can affect the safety and survival of our friends. This is probably more true in CRW than in any other discipline. I have no problem discussing my choices with fellow jumpers. I may turn it off, if someone has a problem with it being there. I equally have no problem with anyone who wishes to not jump with me because of my choices.

Kevin Keenan


(This post was edited by kkeenan on Nov 2, 2009, 11:00 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Nov 2, 2009, 11:34 AM
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Re: [kkeenan] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, with regards to the incident in Lodi, one reserve was fired and the p/c, bridle, bag was wrapped wround the other jumper from the spin, keeping the reserve from leaving the bag.

The rate of loss of altitude may have been enough to trigger an AAD, but it would have probably done what the other reserve did- wrap around the mess that was already there.

top


JohanW  (D 86318)

Nov 4, 2009, 7:18 AM
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Re: [kkeenan] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My thoughts are that at 750 ft and 78 mph, most of the operational choices in the situation have been made and things are not looking good. More nylon could hardly make things worse.

Inadvertent activation of AADs has happened. That cannot be disputed. However, I have been in the air with a lot of jumpers with AADs over the years, and have never seen it happen. That may influence my perception that the likelihood approaches zero.
Kevin, honest question:

How often have you seen a CRW-dog going through 750 ft at 78 mph? And how did the answer to that question influence your perception of that likelihood?

We're dealing with exceedingly small risks and sample sizes here.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Nov 4, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Re: [JohanW] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How often have you seen a CRW-dog going through 750 ft at 78 mph? And how did the answer to that question influence your perception of that likelihood?

We're dealing with exceedingly small risks and sample sizes here.

I'm not sure I understand your question/statement. Are you saying that 78 mph is a higher descent rate than you would get in a wrap ? I don't really know. I used that figure because it is the activation speed of a CYPRES. I don't know what speed the other AADs use, but I'm guessing that they are similar. Obviously, a wrap may descend slower and still be fast enough to kill you.

I had a problem once wherein my right arm was trapped between the risers of my spinning main. I was jumping a L-113, and the lines were twisted up to the stabilizers, making for a very small canopy. I have no idea what the rate of descent was. I was able to reach the cutaway handle with my left hand and all ended well. However, had both arms been wrapped, I would not have been able to release the main. More importantly, I would also have been unable to pull the reserve ripcord. Deploying a reserve into a spinning main is a pretty bad idea, unless there is no alternative. It may work or it may not. However, I had decided that if I could not release the main, i would have to do just that. If my left hand had been unavailable, the CYPRES would have fired (if my speed were high enough). Therefore, in this circumstance, it would have mirrored my own intentions.

I realize that this was an unusual occurrance. It's hard to say what the speed of any wrap may be. They're all different. The idea is to not hit the ground at a high speed. I have, unfortunately, seen people in canopy wraps impact the ground. At 78 mph, you are 6.5 sec. from the ground. I have not seen anyone do anything in the last 6.5 seconds of a high-speed descent that altered the outcome.

CRW is a business of chance. We analyze situations and try to take the actions that have the best chances of success. There are no concrete rules that work in all cases. The best tool we have is knowledge, because it is the data in our heads that provide the tools to analyze and act properly in an emergency. Freefall skydivers have one procedure for almost all emergencies. CRWDogs have many - and sometimes we don't even know what they will be until we see the problem.

Kevin


skypuppy  (D 347)

Nov 4, 2009, 8:35 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

I have not seen anyone do anything in the last 6.5 seconds of a high-speed descent that altered the outcome.
_____________________________________________

Really? For someone with your years in sport I find that surprising. I've seen several things done in the 6.5 seconds that saved people, and most without aads. I myself was in a two-way below 800 feet (on a skydive, at terminal) and we both managed to open our reserves without aads. (doing it this low was unplanned, but we were watching, and decided to continue even tho' we were low.)

I would have to say that the number of people I've seen personally save themselves below 800' without depending on aads would at least be in double digits, and I've never seen an actual bounce (some spinny things rode in maybe, or caused by the jumper, with severe injuries and deaths, but never a bounce).

That's not to say I don't know they happen, I'm just surprised to hear someone say they've never seen anyone save themself.....


(This post was edited by skypuppy on Nov 4, 2009, 8:38 PM)


pbwing

Nov 5, 2009, 2:59 PM
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Re: [skypuppy] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a question...

What is the speed of a downplane. I'm guessing it isn't enough to fire off an ADD, but I've been in 100+ downplanes but no one ever had an ADD.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Nov 5, 2009, 7:14 PM
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Re: [pbwing] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

GREAT QUESTION! I want to know this also, never did a downplane YET, but will and I have a AAD. Now I worry wheather it should be on, this thread opened my eyes and makes me worry about it. If I do one soon, I'll try to know alt beginning and end and know time and can get avg speed but it still makes me worry max speed might "pop" it. Any body do a downplane and held it for awhile WITH a AAD?


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Nov 5, 2009, 8:52 PM
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Re: [pbwing] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember, the smaller the canopies/higher the wingloading, the faster the downplane will go. I've taken downplanes with a close friend down to 200-300 feet under Triathlon 135-150's loaded around 1.2. I'd be scared to try that under pocket rockets loaded over 2.0.


pbwing

Nov 5, 2009, 9:57 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, most of mine would have been under 126s with a wing loading of 1.4ish...


BartRN  (D 29888)

Nov 8, 2009, 7:06 AM
Post #23 of 35 (2138 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just remember, the smaller the canopies/higher the wingloading, the faster the downplane will go. I've taken downplanes with a close friend down to 200-300 feet under Triathlon 135-150's loaded around 1.2. I'd be scared to try that under pocket rockets loaded over 2.0.

Using my Tri 150 (WL 1.5) I have downplanes with average speeds of 50-57mph per my Altitrack. When I pitch out the door to do CRW it is usually when we do the downplane that the Altitrack finally thinks I have jumped... :)

Side note: I jump without an AAD


(This post was edited by BartRN on Nov 8, 2009, 7:10 AM)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Nov 10, 2009, 1:32 AM
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

First question to ask oneself is:

Do I really want to hold a downplane for so long (low) that an AAD might become an issue (~1000 feet)?


ETA my own answer:
"No - with a mere 10 CRW jumps I'm a CRoo-kie... No high speed manouevres below 3k for me."


(This post was edited by Baksteen on Nov 10, 2009, 1:33 AM)


flipper  (D 11524)

Nov 10, 2009, 1:35 AM
Post #25 of 35 (2051 views)
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Re: [BartRN] AAD for CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Just remember, the smaller the canopies/higher the wingloading, the faster the downplane will go. I've taken downplanes with a close friend down to 200-300 feet under Triathlon 135-150's loaded around 1.2. I'd be scared to try that under pocket rockets loaded over 2.0.

Using my Tri 150 (WL 1.5) I have downplanes with average speeds of 50-57mph per my Altitrack. When I pitch out the door to do CRW it is usually when we do the downplane that the Altitrack finally thinks I have jumped... :)

Side note: I jump without an AAD

Still quite far away from the activation speed !

Is there any occurences of an AAD activating during a CRW jump ? ...


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