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My landing video...advice?

 

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Pammi

Feb 2, 2003, 4:36 PM
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My landing video...advice? Can't Post

I've talked about my landings on here many times, and so I took Skycat's advice and had my daughter, Samantha, video as I landed (which explains why it's a little shaky). I'd appreciate some opinions from you guys about what I might be doing. I'm finishing my flair fine now (I hadn't been previously) but I"m not sure how to correct whatever it is I'm doing now. Laugh away as well, I do! WinkLaugh

(BTW, I actually have a video of me landing on my feet on the jump before this one, so I'm not completely hopeless....just can't get used to this lack of a good wind here in NC! Tongue)


My landing


Pam


12bhi

Feb 2, 2003, 4:49 PM
Post #2 of 72 (3257 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

   Dont take advice from me because I've only 9
jumps,but it looked to me that your right toggle
was lower than your left.


hawkbit  (A 41902)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:00 PM
Post #3 of 72 (3246 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Definately looks like you you had your right toggle all the way down before the left. That was the most noticable thing, but then again, my canopy has been happily dumping my ass on the ground a lot recently. Hopefully Hooknswoops canopy class will take care of that Crazy.

Keep filming and I'm sure a pattern will emerge.
I hate those no wind days!


Michele  (B 26874)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:37 PM
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, Pammi. So like I'm some sort of expert. (I mean, geesh, give a girl a canopy class, and she'll start spouting off all kinds of advice!Wink) Please take the advice of folks who know over mine every day, o.k.?

I watched this about 10 times, and slowed it/frame advanced it several times. I noticed a few things I'd like to share.

1. The others are right - your right arm is significantly lower than your left. I think that you're even leaning right a little - not square to the ground. because of this really faint tilt, you are not getting your feet under you at all.

2. It doesn't look like you get the speed bled off enough. This might have to do with the uneven flare, but I'm not sure (this is one of my worst problems).

3. You're touching down a little angled. Your left shoulder is slightly ahead of your right one, and your right leg is "sliding" under your left so that you end up sliding into the ground on your right side.

4. You're reaching for the ground a little bit. I mean, you're not letting it come to your feet, you're pushing your legs out and front. I do this a lot too...Jim says it's "sitting back". He told me to lean as if I was getting up out of a chair, instead of sitting into a chair.

Last note. I am not sure you're getting a full flare, even with your arms extended. Something about the speed in which you're coming in makes me think this, but I really don't know. Is the canopy in trim? Can you stall it up high - to where you really slow/stop/drop? I couldn't see if there was deflection at full flight (it didn't look like it, but I really couldn't tell), and didn't see the change in angle of chute because of where Samantha was aiming (the canopy was not in the pix).

If you can watch the good, stand-up landing and then this one, over and over, maybe you'll notice something you did/didn't do on the good one that you didn't do/did on this one.

That's about all I saw. But don't take my word for anything when it comes to jumping - I haven't got a real idea what I'm watching.

Ciels-
Michele


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:47 PM
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Re: [Michele] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

good job michele Cool half the battle to fixing your own landing issues is identifying them.

Only thing I would like to add is it looks like you are giving up and letting your feet roll under you rather than staying on them trying to slide it out. (If you did that you would probably slide in on your butt and the chair thing michele is talking about would make more sense). This could be due to your bootie suit, since I know it's kind of hard to run in those things. Maybe try a few hop-n-pops without your bootie suit and see if that makes any difference, I know it's a lot easier for me to run things out in my freefly pants than my RW suit.

Also it looks like you may be flaring to high, but I'll have Derek watch it to say for sure, I've been watching to many elliptical landings lately.

Ok I swear last time I edit this, but it looks like your canopy at full flight might be flying in brakes, next time you are up look at the tail and see how far you can pul the lines down before you see the tail start getting pulled down. I think it's suppose to something like 2 to 3 inches.


(This post was edited by skycat on Feb 2, 2003, 5:55 PM)


Kris  (D 26033)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:52 PM
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

It does look like you're uneven with the flare. Also, like Michele said, check your brake length. That was a lot of speed for the amount of flare that you had input into the canopy.

I was also concerned by how you were holding your legs straight down. Bring your knees up a bit, like you were preparing for a PLF.

I do this on my landings and when I have leveled the canopy out and am adding in lift is when I put my right foot in front, left foot back, and I am prepared to slide out the last little bit of energy after I'm done dragging a toe.Smile Also, this helps balance you for a slide-out landing (good thing).

Re-watch your video and notice that you try to run as soon as your foot touches the ground. That's a big no-no. Never run out a landing, slide it out. That's SkymonkeyONE's mantra as well.

Kris


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 2, 2003, 5:53 PM
Post #7 of 72 (3206 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Michele hit about all the major points, but basically the right side is lower. Thats turning you and there for accelerating you. You reached with your feet, your knees should be bent and loose until you are stalling the canopy about 2 inches off the ground then take a step. Even with no wind you ahould never have to run, if you are you are not flaring the canopy all the way.

Also it seemed like you did a very compressed flare, there was no real plane out peroid before you went into your flare.

Run up and see Chuck, he should be able to point more things out by seeing it in person.


Kris  (D 26033)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:55 PM
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Re: [skycat] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also it looks like you may be flaring to high, but I'll have Derek watch it to say for sure, I've been watching to many elliptical landings lately.
Quote:

Thanks, Kelli. I forgot that one. It did look that way to me as well.

If you are too early with your flare, Pam, you will have wasted a good portion of the energy you will need to shut the canopy down. You may have leveled it off at the right point above the planet but you have no reserve left to deal with the speed that you have left.

Kris


dex  (D 26204)

Feb 2, 2003, 5:55 PM
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks like you might have steped down to soon. Like your foot reached for the ground instead of waiting for the ground to come to you. If you step down while you still have significant forward speed you have to either walk/run it out, PLF or tumble.

Edit: ps I LOVE the sound effects of the onlookers... "flare flare flare.. oaooaoaoaoaoaooh"


(This post was edited by dex on Feb 2, 2003, 6:00 PM)


Jib  (C License)

Feb 2, 2003, 6:01 PM
Post #10 of 72 (3193 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have 30 jumps; so, take what I say with a grain of salt. It looks like you may have flared high, too slowly at first, finished early and reached for the ground. At altitude, try flaring faster down to the point your canopy pops up. Try to find where you can flare to and maintain altitude (not pop up). Then, ride your brakes at that point (hopefully, that's around your shoulders somewhere), adding brakes to maintain altitude only (or decrease your rate of descent). When you are close to the ground and the canopy is ready to land (don't force it to by reaching), finish the flare; don't finish it before you are ready to land or you could stall the canopy. So, at altitude, flare to the point, ride/add brakes thinking you're trying to maintain altitude and finish the flare (to a stall). I'm not saying to stab your brakes, but you want to use enough force to flatten out the canopy's descent. Hope it helps.

jib


(This post was edited by Jib on Feb 2, 2003, 6:15 PM)


Samurai136  (D 26609)

Feb 2, 2003, 9:01 PM
Post #11 of 72 (3135 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most everyone has commented on the slight uneven flare but the first thing I noticed is that you are flaring too high.

If you look at the background notice when you move just past the end of the trees. You hands are at your waist and there is little range left in your toggle stroke to do anything and you're about 5' off the ground. I can't see the canopy but based on where the A lines are going I'd guess that you have been completely swung out infront of the canopy which means you are VERY near the stall point.

Also look where your hands are when you transition from silhouette to color, this is about tree top level. When the camera first picks you up in color your toggles have been pulled as far as your chin- chest strap range. Another sign you are flaring too high.

Leave your toggles all the way up a second or two longer than you are currently comfortable with. Then begin your flare. When you begin the flare too high you bleed off some of the forward speed that will give you more lift during landing.

You are doing good finishing the flare but do it evenly. If you sense that you are 'falling' right or left at touchdown, give a bit more flare w/ the opposite toggle to even it out. A common instinct is to reach in the direction of the 'fall' and this makes the canopy continue to turn in the direction of the 'fall'.

All in all, your landing looks pretty good. Just start the flare a bit lower and evenly thru the full toggle stroke.

Ken


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Feb 2, 2003, 9:17 PM
Post #12 of 72 (3128 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

NOOOOOICE video. I especially like the commentaryLaugh My quick and fast advice is to learn how to run faster or start your flare a bit higher. Nice recovery BTWLaugh


Kris  (D 26033)

Feb 2, 2003, 9:30 PM
Post #13 of 72 (3120 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NOOOOOICE video. I especially like the commentaryLaugh My quick and fast advice is to learn how to run faster or start your flare a bit higher. Nice recovery BTWLaugh

Ummm...don't you mean a bit lower?

Kris


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Feb 2, 2003, 9:32 PM
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Re: [Kris] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
NOOOOOICE video. I especially like the commentaryLaugh My quick and fast advice is to learn how to run faster or start your flare a bit higher. Nice recovery BTWLaugh

Ummm...don't you mean a bit lower?

Kris

I wish they would make a tounge in cheek smiley face


RTB  (D 582)

Feb 3, 2003, 3:54 AM
Post #15 of 72 (3059 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Most of the comments are valid. I'd like to point to the pitch of the canopy though. Try starting the flare a bit lower and do the first part a bit faster. Then kind of pause there. This is to get the canopy more behind you. Or to get yourself more in front of the canopy. Doing this will help you plan out better and having your knees a little bent you can achieve a short surf before you finnish the flare. You have enough forward speed to be able to fly parallel to the ground a while.


Pammi

Feb 3, 2003, 5:39 AM
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Re: [dex] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, you guys are great! I have a lot to read through while I look at the video more. Merrick kinda said some of what you guys said, about how it looked like I still had some speed left I hadn't bled out before I reached for the ground with my feet. The one thing I'm a little confused about is that you're saying I'm supposed to bend my knees so my feet are up behind me a little, correct? Then I assume I'm to pull them back up under me when it *is* time to put them down? How do I know when it's slowed down sufficiently so I don't land ON my knees? Keeping in mind I am a slow runner (I had a guy joke when playing softball that he could pick me up and carry me faster then I could run Wink)

In reply to:
Edit: ps I LOVE the sound effects of the onlookers... "flare flare flare.. oaooaoaoaoaoaooh"

ROFL!! Tyler, my seven year old son was the 'Flare, flare, flare...." then he and my 11 year old daughter did the nice "ooaaoooaaooohhh" ROFL! Pretty hilarious! Even Tyler knows when to flare now better then I do! hehe Laugh


(This post was edited by Pammi on Feb 3, 2003, 5:49 AM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 3, 2003, 6:39 AM
Post #17 of 72 (3016 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

You should be in the PLF position, knees slightly bent in front of you ready to roll to either side if you can't stand it up. One other thing I noticed was once you hit the ground you tried to use your hands to keep from wiping out too bad... bad idea. Its really easy to sprain or break your wrist trying to catch your self when you reach. Just take the full impact in a Plf.

Coming from experience here reaching will only serve to make a harder impact.


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 3, 2003, 9:29 AM
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Keeping in mind I am a slow runner

It looks like you have a really nice landing area, so you may be able to slide to a stop and not run at all. Do exactly what phree said but remember to not lean back, do like michele discribed it (like getting up out of a chair not sitting down) or the way I think of it, press the "the girls" on the chest strap. Then allow your feet to slide across the ground. Watch Chuck and the other swoopers there land, you will see them slide before they start running.


dex  (D 26204)

Feb 3, 2003, 11:48 AM
Post #19 of 72 (2926 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How do I know when it's slowed down sufficiently so I don't land ON my knees?

I wouldn't bend your knees so much that your shins were parallel with the ground, landing like that will be very hard on your knees. I think of it as a squat so your feet are still under you but there is a bit of "slack" or spring in your knees. Lifting your legs a bit lets you bleed of speed slightly lower to the ground and if you bleed off so much that your canopy drops you you don't have as far to fall. Thinking to pick up your feet a bit may keep you from "stepping off" the ride so soon. As for when to step "down", I don't remember steping down at all I just wait for the ground to come to me at the end of my flair. I hate to slide in my booties so I try to avoid that..


goose491  (A 7123)

Feb 3, 2003, 2:09 PM
Post #20 of 72 (2886 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...about how it looked like I still had some speed left I hadn't bled out before I reached for the ground with my feet.

SOME? It doesn't look like you're getting ANY flare out of that puppy!

Has anyone spoken to you about brake-line length? When flying straight, brakes up, what do your lines look like? There should be a 'bow' or 'arc' look to them but how much is too much? When you've got your hands at your but and are still coming in pretty warm.

I'm no expert but If you pause your video at about the 6th second and explore a few frames, you'll see the difference in between your two hands (though you should make a mental effort to bring them down evenly) is pretty much negligable and could even be due to camera angle. I DO think you could stand to bring them down a little more tho Wink.

Can you stall your canopy in the air without taking wraps? Try it a couple times. In the aviation world, the nicest "greased" landings are the ones were the stall warning goes off just as you LG makes contact. You should be close to a stall when your feet first come into contact with the ground.

Anyway, try a bunch of stalls in the air. Taking your toggles to your butt and wait for it. If you have a hard time stalling without taking wraps, you could consider shortning brakes?

NICE VID!!! and Good luck Smile


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 3, 2003, 2:36 PM
Post #21 of 72 (2867 views)
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Re: [goose491] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually it looks like the brakes are right on or a bit short already based on the impact of her movements on the canopy flight.


pds  (D 27641)

Feb 3, 2003, 4:13 PM
Post #22 of 72 (2838 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

pammi, please dont reach with your hands. our hands and arms are not very strong compared to the momentum we build coming in.

most times you will get away with it using hands, but is a really bad habit that will eventually result in missing tissue, broken bones and/or dislocations. (personal experience)

if you are going over, tuck your hands and arms in and roll as in plf.

i cannot see the tail of your canopy through your entire landing but it seems to me that your hands are well below your waist (half brakes +) at more than 15 feet above the ground and are fully extended while still 5 feet above the ground. no more flare. BUT you are still moving forward in front of the canopy and falling 5 feet. the vid is a bit choppy but that would lead me to believe that you are stabbing a bit as well as flaring too early.

try the oh fuck method. you know when you start to say 'oh shit, i gotta flare!'? well, try to ignore that and wait just a second or 2 longer for the louder voice that says "OH FUCK, I GOTTA FLARE!" and then start your flare, slowly to a little less than half to get you to the ground and then start to push it out as you glide or slide.

are your brake lines too long for your arms? i.e. do you have full control range? check this with instructor and rigger before you even think about any of the halfassed advice i give you because if your brake lines are too long you could get hurt.

[edit] just read phree message (DOH!) and he may be correct, but still, take this issue up with an experienced canopy pilot on site to be sure.

most of all, keep it up!

somebody please confirm or correct this advice.......


(This post was edited by pds on Feb 3, 2003, 4:17 PM)


skycat  (D 25740)

Feb 3, 2003, 4:23 PM
Post #23 of 72 (2825 views)
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Re: [pds] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pammi here is what I think you should do. Take what every one has said, and watch your video a few times I try to recognize when and where things are happening. Then from the video visuallize how it would look if you did it right, maybe get a few shots of other people who are doing it right land.

It won't happen overnight, but you will get it girl.

Also I recommend changing only one thing at a time, or working on only one thing at a time, that way you don't go to far to the other side and get hurt.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 3, 2003, 4:57 PM
Post #24 of 72 (2808 views)
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Re: [Pammi] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's my thoughts. Corrections, Opinions, sly jokes always appreciated.

I even grabbed a few frames off the video to illustrate my points.

Take a look at the file called "TreeTop.jpg". You're a good 50 feet off the ground, and you're already starting your flare. Flaring a canopy isn't like breaking a car, starting early will NOT help you out.

You also appear to be doing a very slow gradual flare. This isn't going to help you. You'll have better luck if you do a stronger flare much lower to the ground.

In the file called FlareDone.jpg, you're a good six feet off the ground. You have absolutely no flight left in your canopy. It's COMPLETELY stalled. From here, you're essentially falling DOWN. Remember you want to stall your canopy right at ground zero, not ground zero + 6.

Lastly, in the file called 'EvenFlare.jpg', you can see clearly that your toggles are very uneven as you finally touch down. This is what is knocking you over.

_Am
Attachments: EvenFlare.jpg (14.2 KB)
  TreeTop.jpg (26.0 KB)
  FlareDone.jpg (18.6 KB)


sarge  (A 36)

Feb 3, 2003, 5:55 PM
Post #25 of 72 (2787 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] My landing video...advice? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well there Pammi, I don't think your going to get any better of an analytical analysis that what our esteemed coleague here has provided. Cudo's Dude!

In my humble opinion well done, excellently stated!

The other option would be to down-size to a 76, and in the same time-frame reference module you're flare sequence might work... except you'd fly off 90' right... and plant face first.

.

.


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