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PT6-20 Cessna U206

 

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vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:12 AM
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PT6-20 Cessna U206 Can't Post

PT6-20 Cessna U206
I am looking for interest by DZOs in a PT6-20 powered U206 for skydiving. The aircraft targets would be 350hp to 13K MSl, 6 jumpers, 3 loads between fueling, true15 minute turns. The converted aircraft cost would be $250,000 to $300,000. I know a U206 isnt sexy to up jumpers but I think the aircraft could fly 2 Tandems with Video to alt and while the tandem masters and camera men are resetting for the next load carry a load of up jumpers. Right now it takes 8 to 15 min for the tandem masters and video to get ready for the next load and manifest doesnt want fun jumpers blocking the aircraft for 30 min. 6000 head per year min would make it cost effective. How many DZs need this aircraft? -20s are cheap and easy to come by, at 350hp 640c is the highest temp the engine will see temp except start, No start hot section limitation. I have found an interested party in developing and getting an STC for the aircraft. I just have to put up the airframe, engine, and money for 1 year. Please give me input on weather this is a workable aircraft in our industry.


pilot-one  (D 30000)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:21 AM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

How many Mark 1's do you see in skydiving? I think that should answer your question.


totter

Oct 22, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PT6-20 Cessna U206

If there was a demand for this type of aircraft, why aren't there more of the Allison powered Soloy 206s flying? The Allison puts out just as much horsepower.

What type of prop would you use? The standard 3-bladed Hartzell barely has enough prop clearance on a King Air.

Also, have you given thought to Weight & Balance. A -20 fully rigged weighs 340 pounds + 180 for the prop. This is more than a 206 with an IO-520 - IO-540. For an aircraft that already requires full UP Elevator to keep it off the nose wheel at landing this could pose a problem.


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:29 AM
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Re: [pilot-one] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Find me a Soloy 206 for under $400,000, I cant find one under $500,000.


(This post was edited by vpjr on Oct 22, 2009, 10:40 AM)


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:34 AM
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Re: [totter] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the -20 with prop weighs less than an the Cont or lyc. T-34C has a large lead weight in the nose to make up for the 470 it replaced. The combo will actually weigh less, extending the engine farther fwd would fix the CG. The aircraft would be F and G model 206s with large horizontals Stabs. You were flying old small tail aircraft. Asking only 350 hp would alow for a shorter prop. Just use a hack saw.


(This post was edited by vpjr on Oct 22, 2009, 10:46 AM)


keithbar  (A 14048)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

from a jumper not pilot p.o.v. would we be talking a standard door? or the big rear cargo door? I've always wanted to jump a cargo door 206


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 22, 2009, 10:49 AM
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Re: [keithbar] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not enough P 206 aircraft for the STC to recover cost.


totter

Oct 22, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

You are correct with the weight if your are replacing an IO-540 or a TIO-54O. The PT6 and prop combo would be less.
If it is replacing an IO-520 then the PT6/prop combo would be alittle more.


diverdriver  (D 19012)

Oct 22, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Re: [totter] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

While I would love to have flown a Soloy converted U206 (400 SHP!) I flew a converted U206 with an IO-550 engine and found it to be fantastic. Lower cost of conversion and plenty of power. And because it was piston you didn't have as much concern about shutting it down between loads. Turbines need to run. If you're starting it every load and not hotfueling then the wear and tear on a turbine can outgrow it's advantage in overhaul.

Just some thoughts.

I still want to get my hands on a Soloy 206. I think it would be great for some DZs to offer fast turns and higher altitude without outrunning the ability of the people on the DZ to pack and get ready. Only taking 6 jumpers at a time it might be a nice pace for a DZ with a small runway and maybe 20 up jumpers who will be in varying stages of packing and getting ready for each load.


(This post was edited by diverdriver on Oct 22, 2009, 12:18 PM)


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 22, 2009, 12:34 PM
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Re: [totter] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dry weight if a 520 is 454 with light weight starter. add 20lbs of oil. Props of the same diameter should be close to the same weight. The Hartzell on my 206 weighs 78. 454+20+78=552 I have to go out to my Twin Otter and look at the W/B to check your numbers (340+180=520)


(This post was edited by vpjr on Oct 22, 2009, 12:44 PM)


totter

Oct 22, 2009, 1:27 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

The weight would work in your favor. The HC-B3TN Prop, as on the -100, -200 Otters with the -20 is 112 pounds. So the PT6/Prop combo would be lighter.
Sorry for the miscalculation. I was thinking prop with paddle blades which th -20 would not be able to turn.
How would the balance work out, though? The moment for the engine, (i.e. the engine mounts), would be 2-3 feet farther forward.


pilot-one  (D 30000)

Oct 22, 2009, 1:43 PM
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Re: [totter] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
PT6-20 Cessna U206

If there was a demand for this type of aircraft, why aren't there more of the Allison powered Soloy 206s flying? The Allison puts out just as much horsepower.

What type of prop would you use? The standard 3-bladed Hartzell barely has enough prop clearance on a King Air.

Also, have you given thought to Weight & Balance. A -20 fully rigged weighs 340 pounds + 180 for the prop. This is more than a 206 with an IO-520 - IO-540. For an aircraft that already requires full UP Elevator to keep it off the nose wheel at landing this could pose a problem.

The Mark 1 is the Soloy. And it's 420 HP not 400. I have 2000 hours flying these aircraft in the Alaskan bush. It would make a bad ass skydiving plane. Climb rate is close to 2000fpm. You can literally hang the airplane on the prop.


flyboy62000  (D 29937)

Oct 23, 2009, 9:04 AM
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Re: [pilot-one] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ I jumped at in Germany (FSV Saar) had two or three Soloy 206's when I was there, and they were great. Cargo door with a large drop step that ran the length of the door, outside handles, and camera step. The only thing I didn't like about the planes were the fabric rollup doors. Lexan would have been really nice. Overall it was a great jumpship, and I would think that it would make an ideal airplane for a smaller DZ looking for turbine turn times. 6 jumpers to 4000m in 15-18 min.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 23, 2009, 11:04 AM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

There are already STCs to install PT-6 engines in Cessna 210, which is almost the same airframe, depending upon year.

One disadvantage with PT-6A-20 is their availability. I was under the impression that many Twin Otter and King Air owners were converting to later models because they had a hard time finding airworthy -20s.

Yes, I have jumped Soloy Cessna 206 in Germany and enjoyed them. They were leased from a Swiss airplane broker. That only works if fun jumpers are willing to pay the total cost of jump tickets (30 to 50 percent more than current rates in North America). Skydiving was expensive in Europe in the 1980s because fun jumper were paying the true cost of operation, not depending upon students to subsidize their fun.


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 23, 2009, 1:07 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

I havent found a STC holder for a PT6 210. I have seen pictures of a Walter 210. There is a STC for the Rolls/Allison 210 like the Soloy. -20 compleate engines are comming available now that old king airs are being parked. If I upgraded my 100 series otter to -27s I would have 3 for conversion. At the low power setting 350hp the hot section and power section should last forever. Any other PT6 small would fit just open your wallet.


totter

Oct 23, 2009, 1:08 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One disadvantage with PT-6A-20 is their availability. I was under the impression that many Twin Otter and King Air owners were converting to later models because they had a hard time finding airworthy -20s.

There are -20 out there, because of all the operators who are converting.
The biggest issue is maintenance costs. Not your typical inspection cost, but Overhaul & Hot Sections.
There are still shops out there that support the -20 for overhauls and hots, but that number is slowly shrinking. Plus, add in there that Pratt & Whitney does not support the engine anymore, (i.e. New Parts) and that sends the cost of parts way up.
You can pick up a decent -20 for $60,000 - $80,000, but come the first Hot Section that you need parts and the HSI will cost around $20K-$40K.
Overhauls will cost 2-3 times as much as what the engine was purchased at.


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 23, 2009, 1:24 PM
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Re: [totter] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

"You can pick up a decent -20 for $60,000 - $80,000, but come the first Hot Section that you need parts and the HSI will cost around $20K-$40K."

That $100K still gets you into a PT6 that would last for 1500 hours. I have been looking at the IO-550N conversion that cost $63,000 and Ill get to worry about maint cost every week.

Photo of Walter 210
http://www.airliners.net/...b6a662b2d448643bf869


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Oct 25, 2009, 6:27 AM)


Premier MidwestFreefall  (D 11112)

Oct 23, 2009, 3:38 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

I flew the Soloy 206 and it's a real buzz. I was seriously looking at buying one a few years ago - actually went out to California to look it over and fly it. At the end of the day, I really was having trouble making the business case work out with only six seats (and knowing that it would probably fly with only 4 or 5 frequently).

Regarding the -20, I found it interesting that when I attended Pratt & Whitney's factory PT6A training, the -20 wasn't even listed as an engine model in the training literature. When I asked the instructor about it, he said that it was an unsupported "legacy" product.

The U206 with a -20 might work. Interesting thought in any case.

Randy


(This post was edited by MidwestFreefall on Oct 23, 2009, 3:40 PM)


howardwhite  (C 3896)

Oct 23, 2009, 3:39 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Photo of Walter 210 I dont know how to link
Clicky.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Oct 23, 2009, 4:15 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I upgraded my 100 series otter to -27s I would have 3 for conversion.

Have Tools!

Will work for Beer, Pizza & Jump Tickets!

Will travel to help pull a motor off of 1PM... not like I haven't before... Wink


vpjr  (D 14158)

Oct 23, 2009, 6:43 PM
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Re: [MidwestFreefall] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

" I really was having trouble making the business case work out with only six seats "
Please tell me the details so I make a good decision. Aircraft price / number of seats per year? What did you figure you needed? How did it not fit your operation? What was the price? thanks in advance.


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 23, 2009, 7:11 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

You have 3 PT6s and 3 206s... coincidence? I think not. Forget 6 seats... you've got 18 seats!

Business case? C'mon, you know it'd be cool and you know you wanna do it! And I know a DZ that would use it!

Dave


Premier MidwestFreefall  (D 11112)

Oct 25, 2009, 4:48 PM
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Van - been away from the computer for a bit. I'll dust off my spreadsheet and send you a PM on my conclusions. Probably will be mid-week. Randy


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 27, 2009, 11:02 AM
Post #24 of 243 (19142 views)
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Re: [vpjr] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this about right?

Dave
Attachments: turbine 206.jpg (150 KB)


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Oct 27, 2009, 11:30 AM
Post #25 of 243 (19118 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] PT6-20 Cessna U206 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is this about right?

Dave


Needs rocket launchers, a gun-pod and a subdued (tactical) paint scheme...

Tongue


Laugh


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