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Is the AFF rating too easy?

 

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davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 17, 2009, 8:16 PM
Post #126 of 447 (1468 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

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But most of us earned it just like the rest of you.

Just to be clear, you did not (or will not) earn a rating just like the instructors who earned their rating through the old-style course. They earned their rating by passing a much harder course then you had to (or will have to) pass.

This is not to say that you would not have also passed the old-style course as well, but the fact is that you earned your rating in a much different way than the old-school guys.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 17, 2009, 9:36 PM
Post #127 of 447 (1461 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IMO, aerial skills are much more easily acquired compared to communications skills. Regardless of the field in which I'm working, there are many competent at the task but they cannot teach the task very well.

I couldnt agree with you more. I just wish the program had more of a mentor/Instuctor agenda. This way the new JM can assist, teach, learn, listen, and hone teaching skills, as well as in air skills.

I sort of feel new AFFI's are being thrown to the wolves. I know this is general and some DZ's do this, so please do not take this as a shot at anyone or any specific DZ.

Needless to say I was a fan of the AFFJM rating. I wish it would be considered. That is why I hope to attend the next AFF I/E meeting, I will sit and acquire as many facts as I can. I believe to compkain about a process and not get involved is fruitless. Thanks DSE


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #128 of 447 (1455 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

This is not to say that you would not have also passed the old-style course as well, but the fact is that you earned your rating in a much different way than the old-school guys.

Maybe we earned it "differently" but we still earned it.
I earned my Grammy's the old-fashioned way; we used tape, razor blades, and no such thing as pitch correction. In film, we used Steenbecks and Moviola's.
Today, it's all computer-driven and if you screw up a bit of media, it's not like you can't go backwards. In the old days, if you screwed up a razor edit or damaged film strips, it was costly and sometimes irrecoverable.
Old dogs today in the film and broadcast industry bitch that the new generation doesn't understand manual editing, or where the software tools were birthed, named, and refined.
That doesn't mean today's editors are no good, they just had a better foundation on which to build their skills. Reading these posts isn't much different than listening to old-world editors bitching that new editors don't understand what was done for them.
OK, so it's easier for new editors. They didn't have to do nearly the work to get to where they are as we did back in the days of razor blades. In the production world, I'm an old dog, but I grow weary very fast when other old dogs whine about how easy it is for the "new crew."
Who gives a shit? I sure don't, because the job gets done. Do people screw up today because they perhaps don't have the foundational (not fundamental) knowledge? Sure. Just like they do in AFF, ISP, S/L, and IAD. Just like they did 10 and 20 years ago.
It's a different teaching culture for certain, but it's also a different learning culture. It's dynamic. If it's not changing, it's dying.
Has the incident rate for students gone up or down since the advent of AFF vs old world? Has it gone up or down since the inception of ISP? Therein lies the true measure, IMO.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Oct 18, 2009, 3:25 AM
Post #129 of 447 (1447 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the course was harder because the skills that were needed to properly teach students were kept secret. Only those who had the rating knew what was required to obtain the AFF rating and the new candidates were guessing.

Well, whats wrong with having the course material up front? Studying it. Practicing it in the air for weeks/months/years before the course. Learning what skills are required to become a teacher in the sky and then refining communication techniques on the ground with those willing to share their experiences? I'm glad that more experienced instructors are now willing to share thier experience and help teach the next generation of AFF instructors what they need to know.

Because someone was given their rating under the old system doesn't make them any better an AFF instructor than someone earning their rating today.

Anyone who comes out of the AFF course today thinking it was easy doesn't "get it". Is the course easier than 20 years ago? Shit I hope so or we aren't moving forward. Are 108-way head down formations easier than they were 20 years ago? Of course. It doesn't make them easy.

And just to be clear I'm not directing this at anyone in particular. Its just my random thoughts. I don't think the AFF rating was easy. I practiced my ass off and still do every weekend. Its different than it was years ago ( i've been around the dropzone since I was an infant so I've seen the changes) but maybe for the better?


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 18, 2009, 7:14 AM
Post #130 of 447 (1430 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is fair to say had we kept the old system that we would have far less AFFI's today.

I also think it is fair to say that some AFFI's that earned their rating the new way are excellent instructors.

Maybe the newer AFF's should look at the old system and see if they could have made it through. Remember one bust out of six and you were basically done. Needing a 4 on one dive which was not common to say the least. Think about that one jump out of six and you had a bad jump good bye, see you next year.

No practice up and come back next week we can work on it bullshit, and rightfully so there are no redo's in AFF.


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 18, 2009, 8:08 AM
Post #131 of 447 (1425 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Well, whats wrong with having the course material up front? Studying it. Practicing it in the air for weeks/months/years before the course. Learning what skills are required to become a teacher in the sky and then refining communication techniques on the ground with those willing to share their experiences? I'm glad that more experienced instructors are now willing to share thier experience and help teach the next generation of AFF instructors what they need to know.

Doubt anyone's complaining about those people. But you CAN show up at an AFF course today having done ZERO practice ahead of time. Having done NO coach jumps. Not even having your entire card filled out. Having no experience teaching. And not even having made a freefall skydive within 6 months... and pass. I saw it with my own eyes. No offense to any of these candidates... they took the course and met the criteria to pass according to the I/E.

IMO, it should take one freaking amazing skydiver to pass the course with no preparation ahead of time. I do NOT think it's possible to do that with every I/E, but it is possible with some. I don't know if the AFF rating is too easy, but I do know that some courses are easier than others and there is a serious lack of consistency between the pass/fail criteria of different I/Es. I did quite a lot of practice before taking the course. I had 1700+ jumps, coaching experience, practice for months in the air, tunnel time devoted to rollovers, spin stops, and staying with a student, etc. I like to think I could have passed any course. But I do believe I took an easier than average course, so I have no idea how I would have done in any other course.

Dave


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2009, 8:14 AM
Post #132 of 447 (1423 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

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so it's easier for new editors. They didn't have to do nearly the work to get to where they are as we did back in the days of razor blades. In the production world, I'm an old dog, but I grow weary very fast when other old dogs whine about how easy it is for the "new crew."

That's not really a fair comparison becuase the product of those new editors is different than the product you put out 20 years ago. If a 'new' editor, with all of their technical advantages was putting out the same product as you were 20 years ago, they certainly wouldn't be winning any awards. Just as the state of the art has improved, so have the expectations of the final product.

In AFF terms, the product remains the same. Students are the same as they ever were, and are apt to do the same stupid shit as they used to. No amount of refining the ground school is going to change the fact that you're taking a human being, capable of making errors and being 'human', into a frightening, high stress situation. In the end (or in the air) today's AFF I needs to be as good as one from 20 years ago.

Again, I want to stress that this isn't a slam against all AFF I rated under the new system, Everyone with a rating completed all the tasks required of them at the time they earned a rating.

Some of them are excellent instructors, who would have passed any course they took, but there is a percentage that would not have passed the old-style course. The math is undeniable - look at the pass rate of the old course, and compare it to the pass rate of the new course. The difference between the two (for the most part) are all of the instructors who never would have passed the old course.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2009, 8:29 AM
Post #133 of 447 (1419 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Is the course easier than 20 years ago? Shit I hope so or we aren't moving forward.


Why shoud the course be easier when the job you're being rated to do is the same?

There are no 'new style' students who are guatanteed to perform any better once they leave the plane. Right after 'up, down, go' everything is the same as it's always been.

Quote:
Maybe the course was harder because the skills that were needed to properly teach students were kept secret.

Well, whats wrong with having the course material up front? Studying it. Practicing it in the air for weeks/months/years before the course.

If you actually believe that the course materials and techniques were kept a secret, then you are sadly mistaken.

Wanting to get an AFF rating, before your course began, was the same 20 years ago as it is today. You were expected to train for wekks/months/years before showing up.

If you expressed an interest in getting a rating at your home DZ, the staff would coach you, and jump with you, and do whatever they could to help you achieve your goal.

When you were ready, the course evaluators would hold a pre-course the week before the actual course. During this time, you would jump with the actual evaluators, and they would debrief you just like you were in the course. You would learn what i took to pass, and they would help you to meet those expectations.

It was not a 'secret society' where you were ambushed with the unexpected the moment you walked in the door. It was very similar to the cirrent course, with all of the opportunities to prepare available to you. The main difference was that the standard for passing was higher.

Like always, the old course produced it's share of meatballs. Not everyone was a hero, but the new course is producing more meatballs, and they seem to be meatier than ever. Good for pasta, bad for AFF.

One more time, thsi doesn't mean that all of the new crop of AFF Is are meatballs. Some are very good, and would have been in the top of their class had they taken the course 10 years ago.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 18, 2009, 5:52 PM
Post #134 of 447 (1365 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to disagree, Dave. In the editing world, the quality of the acquired image is better, but the tools used today are exact computer replicas of what we did with razor blades, and the techniques are identical too.
If you're thinking of CG, editors don't do that, it's a different "stream" that feeds the film, just as it was 20 years ago.

Students today are different than they were 20 years ago. I didn't need to be around skydiving 20 years ago to know this. The culture of learning, the culture of humans has changed significantly. Overall, I suspect students are far better informed. I know I was fairly well informed before my FJC.
Instructors today have the errors and successes of the past upon which to build; something instructors of the past didn't have. Additionally, communication between instructors today is easier too. In the microcosm of the 'net, we instantly know about screwups but we rarely hear much about successes. I don't believe it's at all an accurate assessment of anything. There were terrific and terrible instructors 20 years ago, and terrific and terrible instructors today. Yet overall, I'd bet that the mean average of instructors today are better. We have more tools, more history, more jumps on average before taking the course, and a number of better pre-course materials. The USPA vids alone are great for students and instructors alike, and anyone can access them 24/7 on the web. Hopefully USPA will soon pull their heads out of their backsides and put the IRM in a pdf form too. Some course directors have excellent pre-course materials available. Mine did, and the others I've shot video for do too. I've also seen a very poor course director with no prep and a lot of angst towards his students. I don't think either represents the mean average of CD's.
Overall, the discussion is still no different than old world mechanics, editors, instructors, even computer programmers bitching about "how hard it used to be." In truth, I think it's just a sign of aging and wishing one was "back in the day." FWIW, I've attended five AFF courses; one as a candidate and the others as a sit-in/videographer. And seen a lot of very good people fail. Only once can I say I've seen a poor flyer/instructor pass. I'm sure in your many more years of experience, you've seen more than I have, so your opinion may carry more weight, but I simply can't help but compare skydiving to other whiners in music and film.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2009, 9:04 PM
Post #135 of 447 (1342 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Students today are different than they were 20 years ago. I didn't need to be around skydiving 20 years ago to know this. The culture of learning, the culture of humans has changed significantly. Overall, I suspect students are far better informed.

Nothing has cahnged that much in 20 years. The jumpsuits look different, and the rigs are a little nicer, but freefall skydiving instruction is the same as it ever was.

You can't train people not to react to freefall. It called 'fight or flight' and it's a response built deep into our brains that kicks when our lives are threatened (like after leaving a plane for the first time).

No advancement in ground school or 'information' is going to change that. What a student knows the morning of their FJC is not a factor because the FJC should cover everything they need to know to make their first jump. No matter how well you teach them, or what 'tools' you use, youre still taking them into the unknown when you leave the plane.

This is what's it's really all about. If we had really advanced all that far, why do we still need AFF Is? Why don't we train the stupid right out of them, so they can just do it right the first time, and send them out solo?

It's because you can't train the stupid out of people, at least not all of the people all of the time. So you need a back up plan, and it's the AFF I.

Your job as the AFF I is to save the day. Lots of jumpers could handle an average or better student. Some students make the job so easy they almost could go solo on jump one. You are there for the other times.

Those times, and what needs to be done hasn't changed much, and never will. Flying is flying, and your fancy rig, or carbon fibre helmet doen't change any of that. From exit to a having a good canopy is where you earn your keep. Everything beyond that is open to negotiation.

The student can't nail the dive flow on the ground? Take a break, and try again later.

The student is confused about hand signals in the plane? Attempt to retrain, mayeb take a go around, mayeb ride the plane down and try again next load.

The student doesn't reposnd to the radio? They do have an open canopy, there's a good chance they'll be fine.

But if anything goes wrong between exit and opening, that's when it's time to make the donuts. There is no stopping to retrain, no going back, and no surviving unless something happens, and you are there to make something happen.

You tell your students that they are responsible for opening their parachute, but you know in the back of your mind that this guy will have a PC out above 3500ft. There's no way that this guy in the ProTec is going to get the better of you.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that this will ever change. All of the training and all of the gear will change other parts of the experience, but freefall is always going to be the same, and what people do in freefall will always be the same, and good portion of it will be stupid. You're there to clean up the stupid, just like the guys did 20 years ago.

I'm not whining about the 'good old days'. I'm making a valid point. The rating system is different, and it is easier to get a rating. The job at hand is the same, the people doing that job are not.

These are not opinions, these are facts. The USPA literally said, "The AFFJMCC is too hard, and not enough people are passing. Less and less are even trying, and we're going to run out of instructors sooner or later. We need to make it easier to get a higher pass rate, and up the attendence".

At some point in time sombody drew a line in the sand and said, "This is the standard for becoming an AFF I". Nobody can say for sure if that line was too far up the beach or not, but the line was moved to a lot closer to the middle of the bell curve.

Was it placed too far off center in the first place? I don't know.

Was it moved too far toward the middle? I don't know.

Should it be moved even futher toward the center? Maybe, I can't say for sure.

Nobody knows these things for sure, but we do know that it used to be one way, and now it's another way, and the new way sure looks a lot easier to me.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 19, 2009, 7:21 AM
Post #136 of 447 (1292 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we are all on the same page for the most part. DSE you took your class with Jay S.
I know Jay very well and I know he puts on an excellent AFFI CC. IF you make it through he feels that you are competent. In conversations with him, the criteria he uses is whether or not he would let you take a family member. That being said we are not diminishing any new rating holder. We are just saying that the standards have changed. Remember the same Course Directors taught under both systems. I would love to have them chime in here.
It is a fact, that the standards have been loosened and it is a fact that some new AFFI's 10 years ago would not have earned the same rating.
What bothers me is the appearance that the rating is being handed out to anyone who pays for it. Again, not everyone. But I am telling you that is what is being said out there.
This hurts both of us. It diminishes the new instructors because they are all klumped together in a category of, "They are handing out ratings nowadays". and it hurts the old system guys by making the rating a joke. It bothers me and it should bother you to see what we put into this class and then to see a guy, go to the class with few jumps, no practice, never stopped a spin, never flipped over a student, never did a coach jump or very few, never assisted with a true first jump class...and come away with the AFF Instructor rating.
So basically now that guy is responsible for coaches never even have really coached.
This nausiates me, and then they expect the respect that a AFFI deserves? Again, skydivers are not stupid, it is the person that earns the respect not the rating.
I used to say that if a skydiver was a AFFI, then beleive me they knew how to fly and I would trust them without ever seeing them in the air. I would say to other instructors if that guy is an AFFI he is not just good he is excellent. Now, I do not trust the system anymore and I am sceptical of all ratings issued.
Let me say another thing when you meet a guy who went through the old system, and I have, it is funny how you both have an immediate bond and also the same opinnion. That is why i tend to agree with Dave.
What you both need to understand is that this hurts us both. Tighten the reigns on the course and make it a true evaluation course. Not a, lets teach you how to be an AFF Instructor course.
Give the rating back its integrity, because whether you admit it or not, it has become something less than what it used to be.
and the new guys should agree because they will get more respect out of it, trust me we used to have it.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 19, 2009, 11:15 AM
Post #137 of 447 (1256 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

If im correct. You old timers use to put students out with 100 jumps as a JM. Has things changed? YES Are they for the better? I don't know. I got my rating last winter. Did they hand it to me for paying them? NO! Was I ready to work with students after getting my rating? USPA said I was. Looking back I have learned a lot this past season. The biggest was that I have a lot more to learn. If you guys are so sure that its to easy, Then why dont you do something about it. Instead of talking about it here. Go to board meeting, call your Regional Director and voice your option. Talking here is going to get nothing done. Jay Stokes is Pres. and a AFF IE Call him and tell him to make it tougher. I worked my ass off to get my rating and continue to improve as a instructor.. Would I have passed in the old system? I dont know and really sorry but don't care. Its not the system now and I met all requirements to get it.
Do I care that people look at me and say it was handed to me? YES. If it was that easy everyone would have it and they dont.

You guys can go round robin on this to you are blue in the face . The system is what it is and if you dont like it do something about it.
Just my 2 cents
Blue skys


Deisel  (D 31661)

Oct 20, 2009, 7:23 AM
Post #138 of 447 (1188 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

So let me get this straight; you don't go to the AFFI course to learn to be an AFFI? That math does not add up to me.

Why is it wrong to learn/teach everything needed to be an AFFI at the AFFI course? And anyone that says 'because that's not how we used to do it' needs to understand just how wrong headed that position truly is.


pilotdave  (D License)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:03 AM
Post #139 of 447 (1181 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So let me get this straight; you don't go to the AFFI course to learn to be an AFFI? That math does not add up to me.

Why is it wrong to learn/teach everything needed to be an AFFI at the AFFI course? And anyone that says 'because that's not how we used to do it' needs to understand just how wrong headed that position truly is.

Because a week long course isn't enough preparation. There's no JM rating anymore. You don't go back to your home DZ after the course and become an Instructor Jr. You're the real deal from day 1. Hopefully most DZs work new instructors in slowly. For me it was a bunch of Cat As and Bs before I was allowed to start going on release dives.

But it still boggles my mind that someone can show up to the course with zero preparation, even quite uncurrent, teach poorly or even give incorrect information during ground evals, and walk away with an AFFI rating in a week.

Don't get me wrong... I've heard horror stories about the way AFF courses used to be. I'm glad things have changed. I'm glad the course is a course, not just an evaluation. I'm glad evaluators are fair and don't try to mess with candidates (as much!). But that's separate from pass/fail standards being reduced.

Dave


FrflyPimpDaddy  (D License)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:15 AM
Post #140 of 447 (1173 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You guys can go round robin on this to you are blue in the face . The system is what it is and if you dont like it do something about it.

After reading this thread I've made some conclusions.

First, the "old-timers" had it much more difficult than us new guys. I know and have flown with some of the people that did get their rating from Yarling, and they are truly bad ass. Respect.

Second, I have my AFF rating and I went to two IE's. I didn't fail the first one, just ran out of time because of weather. I can tell you there is a huge difference in the two AFF courses that I attended in regards to the skydiving part. I can't comment on the teaching part. I did 30 something prep jumps with one, and was still pretty much on the bubble, and one with the other, declared, and I was 3 and out. Easy....Didn't even breathe hard. So, I have no doubt it's not an even playing field.

Third, it seems to me that many of the "old guys" that earned their ratings a while back don't have much respect for the newer AFF instructors. I can understand that, and respect it. What I don't understand, is why it seems you assume that we're (the new guy's) cool with that. I don't want to be as good as you, I want to be better! I did everything I could with the available opportunities to make myself the best instructor I can be. What else can I do? Well, here's a thought.

Why don't all of you "old guys" that feel you're better that us, STEP THE FUCK UP!!! I'm tired as hell of hearing it. I want to be the best AFF instructor I can be. Period. Not because of ego, not because you don't think I earned it or I'm not worthy, but because AFF scares me. Students thought processes scare me, the unknown scares me the most. Every jump. The students that pay me to instruct/jump with them deserve the best from me, and it is my job to be the best I can be, and apparently, to some of my peers, that's not good enough. So, like I said before, "old guy's/gal's", lets go. STEP UP!! I'll get a group of AFF instructors together that think the same way I do, and trust me, you will have enough people for a class. We'll fly you to where ever we decide to do this, and we'll get it on. I want to learn from you, I want to know what you know, please teach me. We'll be happy to pay for the opportunity. All we ask, is don't waste our time. I fully expect the best from you. I want to get down from our jumps barely able to breathe, sweating my ass off, shaking, and possibly bleeding. I want full contact, in your face, OMFG!! what is this guy trying to do to me type of skydives, and I'm willing to pay you for it. This is not us against you, this is the more experienced (noticed I said more experienced. I don't care about your views on the system, the USPA, any other bullshit, keep it to your self) teaching the less experienced.

We're already Instructors, that won't change regardless of the class. What will change? We'll be better instructors, that will make a commitment to uphold the AFF rating in its original form.

Enough talk.....bring it.......I will.


Deisel  (D 31661)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:22 AM
Post #141 of 447 (1180 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave,
All of your points speak to what appear to be a weakness of the current system. Especially the part about not having to do any supervised instructor time before getting a student all to yourself. To steal someone's analogy from another post - you have to be a co-pilot before you get to actually fly the plane (or something like that). Why aren't AFFIs required to ride reserve side for a while?

Lou


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:42 AM
Post #142 of 447 (1170 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dave,
It used to be that way. There was a AFF JM rating, usually that meant you were reserve side or at least closely supervised by an AFFI. That has now gone by the waste and it is up to each DZ to incorporate new instructors as they see fit.
To expand on the analogy, I think it was mine, these guys want to be captains right out of the gate. It is like getting your private pilots license and going straight to the 727 captains chair. Hell they learned everything in the course why not? Or as one guy said in another trend, "I am 100% ready for whatever is thrown my way" refering to Kip and what a great job he did in his course. (Laughable)You are correct there should be a slow mentor process.
And us older guys, which I sorta take offense to, who rode co-pilot seat and worked our way into the captains chair should just shut up and not say a word about a new guy skipping the whole process and just jumping on in. Horse shit.
and to reply to the above about the competition, I have said it about ten times I am not saying that Newer instructors are not good or that we are better. I am saying the standards have changed and more than likely who ever you are could have passed the old standards, good for you. But what about the new AFF's who are getting through and being thrown into full blown AFF and losing students. I guess that is okay.
Which brings up another point, IMO if you lose a student, you should be GROUNDED until an I/E can debrief with you and re-evaluate you. To include if you are seen violating any of the major rules, Not riding a deployment through, bustin hard deck...Etc.
This isnt a joke, stop treating it as one.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Oct 20, 2009, 8:43 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:45 AM
Post #143 of 447 (1166 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dave,
All of your points speak to what appear to be a weakness of the current system. Especially the part about not having to do any supervised instructor time before getting a student all to yourself. To steal someone's analogy from another post - you have to be a co-pilot before you get to actually fly the plane (or something like that). Why aren't AFFIs required to ride reserve side for a while?

Lou

At our DZ, they are. You're an AFFI "jr" once you have your rating.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 20, 2009, 8:48 AM
Post #144 of 447 (1164 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good for your DZ. But not all are like yours. Some treat a brand new AFFI good to go and throw them in the ring.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 20, 2009, 9:04 AM
Post #145 of 447 (1155 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Good for your DZ. But not all are like yours. Some treat a brand new AFFI good to go and throw them in the ring.

I realize this, and have been in the "thrown to the wolves" situation when I completed my AFFI program (Jump #3 was main side).
Frankly, I didn't have an issue with the main side so early. What I did have a problem with was seeing some instructors CLEARLY not ready to teach on the ground, and in one case, an instructor that has a bad attitude in front of his student. I think he'd be an asshat whether he was taught by Don Yarling or Kip Lohmiller, and I think he'd have passed either of their courses. But he still shouldn't be an instructor.

Old system, new system, old students, new students...Maybe I'm stretching too far, but it parallels too many discussions in too many other venues for me to believe it's remotely close to what some say it is.
Is it "too easy?" Dunno. I know there are people in the "new system" that shouldn't be instructors. I can think of a few (as can you, most likely) that were trained in the "old system" and shouldn't have passed/been made a JM and instructor.
Still haven't seen any cited facts regarding increase/decrease in student incidents since the inception of the new system vs the old system. What few discussions I've had, get tossed off to "well, we had more incidents back then because the gear was harder to use."
Maybe I have a different view because I did a lot of precourse work with my DZO well in advance. He's got 42 years in the sport, most of them teaching. He doesn't like the new system much either, and refuses to use the ISP. I admit my view may be colored, but then again, I wanted my rating from day one and worked towards it from pretty much that point. Obviously, every DZ is different. There are shitty instructors who don't care about students or continuing education. There are great instructors that listen well, speak well, and constantly are looking for new ways to do things. However, those failures and attributes apply equally on both sides of the "We're better because we learned back in 19XX."

Back to the original question is it "too easy?" There is no way to measure the course without measuring the impact of the results of the course. With data that demonstrates incidents before and after the inception of the "new AFF," there might be a more intelligent discussion (I'm too lazy and don't really care enough about researching the data).


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Oct 20, 2009, 9:16 AM
Post #146 of 447 (1151 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

At my DZ, which has a robust student program, new AFFIs are mentored and gradually progress. You do a bunch of CAT A and CAT B on the reserve side; then you progress to Mainside CAT A and CAT B. Everntuially you go on a CAT C 2 JM jump with the release and when you prove yourself on enough of those, you get to fly mainside CAT C and finally solo CAT C single JM jumps. The process took me the whole summer, which is about as it should be, I suppose. My skills got better; the staff knew my capabilities and I was assigned appropriate students to progress my Instructor capabilities. I still have plenty to learn and I expect that every student is going to try to kill me or himself and I prepare for the jumps with those expectations. When they go well, that is just a bonus.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 20, 2009, 9:42 AM
Post #147 of 447 (1139 views)
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Re: [fencebuster] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Absolutely 100%, the way it should be and I applaud your DZ. I did it fairly similar.

Problem: AFP or One Instructor DZ's


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 20, 2009, 12:57 PM
Post #148 of 447 (1101 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats the problem I had. Most North East DZ's Use Tandem progression and the students first solo is with one instructor. I stayed on level one's and two's for a bunch of jumps. I would have loved to just been reserve side for the first 50 or so. Thats not how it was. Matter of fact I got yelled at for cursing at my first student. I was so pumped that he or i didn't die LOL that when he landed I congratulated him by saying FUCK YA!!! Wasn't very professional but we lived Wink Like DSE from my first skydive I knew I wanted to do this.

I would love for the system to go back to a mentor ship. Then again I thought thats what the coach rating was for. Starting to learn how to teach and hone your flying skills in. I could be wrong but thats when you start to work under said old timer AFF guy who is getting them ready for the next step...


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 20, 2009, 12:58 PM)


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 20, 2009, 5:12 PM
Post #149 of 447 (1062 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then again I thought thats what the coach rating was for. Starting to learn how to teach and hone your flying skills in. I could be wrong but thats when you start to work under said old timer AFF guy who is getting them ready for the next step...

Now that is funny. Let me explain what the Coach rating has become. A nuissance for someone wanting to be an Instructor. That is one reason, I do not enjoy giving the course anymore. All candidates get their rating on Saturday and on Sunday are enrolled in the Tandem course or AFF course.
Ozzy you're saying that you used your coach rating to hone your flying skills and learn how to interact and teach students? or it was one requirement that you checked off your card to go to an AFF course? Could be tough for you to fib on this one.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 20, 2009, 5:17 PM
Post #150 of 447 (1061 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Then again I thought thats what the coach rating was for. Starting to learn how to teach and hone your flying skills in. I could be wrong but thats when you start to work under said old timer AFF guy who is getting them ready for the next step...


Ozzy you're saying that you used your coach rating to hone your flying skills and learn how to interact and teach students? or it was one requirement that you checked off your card to go to an AFF course? Could be tough for you to fib on this one.

Not really sure why you are asking me this on here when you already know the answer..... I worked directly under your supervision as a coach. Plus you were my IE as a coach. So with that said ... Yes I did!!!! Mr. Dicky WintersCrazy


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 20, 2009, 5:22 PM)


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