Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center!

 

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4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 15, 2009, 6:38 PM
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Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! Can't Post

After a couple days of hard rain, The Parachute Center (Lodi / Acampo) pond is filled up after a long dry spell. I played hookie today because I just could not resist it just sitting there!
The DZ rule states no more than 90 degree turns below 500 feet, so it takes different techniques than 180 or 270, but you can still get a decent swoop carving it slowly.
I dare anyone to swoop the whole thing using 90. I am sure it can be done.
Best of all, hop & pop's are only FIVE bucks at Lodi!
The pond is great for beginners since it's less than a foot deep. If you are not going to make it, you can always walk out, preventing your canopy from getting wet.
See you there!
How do you like my pre-owned velo120? I got it for a good deal. :)

4DBill


(This post was edited by 4dbill on Oct 15, 2009, 6:42 PM)
Attachments: bvlodiswoop.jpg (196 KB)


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 15, 2009, 6:41 PM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The DZ rule states no more than 90 degree turns below 500 feet, so it takes different techniques than 180 or 270

Do what now? So I couldn't do anything more than a 90 below 500ft, but I start a 270 in the 800ft range so that would be cool?


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 15, 2009, 6:44 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill Dause, the DZO, won't allow initiating 180 or 270 above 500 feet. You just have to be creative doing a 90.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 15, 2009, 6:58 PM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You just have to be creative doing a 90

Like 3 90s right after one another? In quick succession? With little or no discernible pause in between them?

Tongue

A swoop pond at a DZ that has effectively banned modern swooping is sort of like having a case of empty beer cans. Sure it looks good, but I think you'll end up getting disappointed.


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 15, 2009, 7:38 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quick 90's in successions are not allowed either. You would be surprised to see how much speed you can build up using just a 90. It isn't how hard you whip it but how LONG you carve it. Brian Germain explains it really well in his book, "The Parachute and its Pilot," which is a MUST READ for all canopy pilots.
He talks about reaching "Canopy Terminal Velocity" which takes 4-6 seconds. So, if you carve a slow controlled front riser 90 for 4-5 seconds, which takes discipline, you should get very close to canopy's terminal velocity. No, you won't be screaming down like after a perfectly executed 270, but it would be enough to impress the spectators. :)
Quoting Brian, "Time is the most relevant variable in achieving speed when gravity is the empowering device."
He is my new hero. At the swooping's infancy, I understood many things he talked about in the book, purely by trial and error, but didn't know how to verbalize it. How do you exactly describe riding a bicyle? But you just know it when you get it.
Brian is a master in describing techniques, feelings, instincts, physics, etc. I never thought that any person would be able to describe a perfect swoop in plain English. He has done it in an amazing way.


(This post was edited by 4dbill on Oct 15, 2009, 7:41 PM)


buff  (D 30567)

Oct 15, 2009, 7:54 PM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

So you carve a big 90 and then hit the double fronts at Lodi?

Why not have seperate landing areas like recommended?


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 15, 2009, 8:08 PM
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Re: [buff] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, you can do a controlled 90 then front riser it. If you time the carve perfectly, there really isn't a reason to double frond riser it at the end of the arc, but that's better than stabbing the brakes doing it too low! :)


adamT  (D 26819)

Oct 15, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

You can't get anywhere near the terminal velocity of a canopy loaded over 2.0 with a 90, no mater how hard you try. You can get some speed but you are barely scratching a swooping canopy's potential.
Its really is a shame, 5$ freakin hop and pops, what a waste.
I hope he changes his mind some day, but this rule seems to be sticking around for while.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 15, 2009, 10:32 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A swoop pond at a DZ that has effectively banned modern swooping is sort of like having a case of empty beer cans. Sure it looks good, but I think you'll end up getting disappointed.

Agreed. Together with cheap hop & pops, it's like a hot date who invites you inside for a coffee only - and means it.


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 15, 2009, 11:32 PM
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Re: [adamT] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

If the pro swoopers were only allowed 90's, just have fast/far can they go? 50%? 80%? 90%?


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 16, 2009, 2:51 AM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Loaded at 2.7 I can build speed on my Velo by flexing a butt cheek, but with a long double to 90 (yes, done it), I'm achieving probably about 10-15% of what normally happens. EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, I think 10-15 was way too high of a guess. I'm thinking its lower.


(This post was edited by AggieDave on Oct 16, 2009, 3:15 AM)


BMFin

Oct 16, 2009, 3:33 AM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I cant get a good speed even with a 270. I get my pro track whining about 50% of time with 270 but at larger turns it yells 100%.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 16, 2009, 6:27 AM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if you carve a slow controlled front riser 90 for 4-5 seconds, which takes discipline, you should get very close to canopy's terminal velocity. No, you won't be screaming down like after a perfectly executed 270, but it would be enough to impress the spectators. :)

Just wondering, how many times have come screaming out of a perfectly executed 270?

My guess would be not that many if you really think that a 90 will come close to that speed. Even after doing it 1000 times, I still occasionally roll out of a 450 flat out shocked at how fast I'm going.

You talk about canopy terminal velocity, but you're ignoring the fact that angle of attack (on a gravity powered wing) will effect what that velocity is.

Terminal velocity is when gravity equals drag, and acceleration becomes zero. In freefall, we all know that terminal on your belly is only a fraction of what it is on your head. You reduce the drag when you transition to your head, and give gravity a leg up in the equation. End result - more speed.

Take this to canopy flight, and you'll see the same thing. In any turn (or dive) your weight moves out from under the wing, and allows changes in pitch and roll. In a slow turn, you limit the distance your weight will travel under the wing, and in turn you limit the overall change in pitch or roll.

If a slow turn will allow you to pitch the canopy 3 degrees nose down, and you hold that pitch angle (like with a slow turn) you will accelerate to the terminal velocity of a canopy pitched 3 degrees nose down.

If you initiate a faster turn, maybe you can pitch the nose down 6 degrees. If you hold that turn long enough, you will accelerate to the terminal velocity for a canopy pitched 6 degrees nose down.

The further down you can pitch the nose, the less drag you will have relative to gravity, and the higher the terminal velocity of the canopy will be. You are correct that you need time to allow the canopy to reach terminal, whcih is why swoopers do multi-rotation turns from 800+ ft.

Beyond all that technical mumbo jumbo, how about this - You start your turn at 500 ft, and it takes 4 to 6 seconds to get to the ground. So your speed is 100ft per second (this is just an example).

I start a turn at 1000ft, and it also takes me 4 to 6 seconds to complete. My speed is 200 ft per second.

Who is going faster?


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 16, 2009, 8:47 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

-----------
I think 10-15 was way too high of a guess. I'm thinking its lower.
-----------

Huh? If there was a swooping meet at Lodi and the rules were the present rules (no more than 90 below 500 feet), you would only get around 10% distance of your normal swoop, no matter how well it was executed? 90 is THAT slow?


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 16, 2009, 9:23 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Take this to canopy flight, and you'll see the same thing. In any turn (or dive) your weight moves out from under the wing, and allows changes in pitch and roll. In a slow turn, you limit the distance your weight will travel under the wing, and in turn you limit the overall change in pitch or roll...
Beyond all that technical mumbo jumbo, how about this - You start your turn at 500 ft, and it takes 4 to 6 seconds to get to the ground. So your speed is 100ft per second (this is just an example).
I start a turn at 1000ft, and it also takes me 4 to 6 seconds to complete. My speed is 200 ft per second.
Who is going faster?

You are beginning to sound like Brian Germain! You don't have beers together, do you? Smile
There is no argument that 90 isn't as fast as 180/270/360. My point is that it CAN be close to very fast, providing it is executed at its full potential, given no other choice. It sounds like it simply can not be done with just 90 no matter what you put into it. I really would like to hear from swoopers who is restricted by 90 degree rules. Anybody from Skydive Arizona? I think they still have a 90 rule.


frost  (D 25011)

Oct 16, 2009, 10:08 AM
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

90's can be plenty fast! Jeffro does double miracle mans on 90's. what i think people here are saying is that Lodi, very sadly, is not suitable for the competitive swoop training and that 90s will never let you to get even close to the the maximum performance of a fast capable canopy.

i sure do hope Mr Bill Dause changes his mind someday about the 90 degree rule...


jcain

Oct 16, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Agreed. Together with cheap hop & pops, it's like a hot date who invites you inside for a coffee only - and means it.

Sometimes the safe way is the way to go. If that coffee does'nt lead to kids, you come out ahead in the long run and can meet more ladies for coffee.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Oct 16, 2009, 10:54 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You just have to be creative doing a 90

Like 3 90s right after one another? In quick succession? With little or no discernible pause in between them?

Tongue

A swoop pond at a DZ that has effectively banned modern swooping is sort of like having a case of empty beer cans. Sure it looks good, but I think you'll end up getting disappointed.

Don't worry Dave you can always do 3 quick 90's at Spaceland over the worlds largest swoop pond. See ya in a few days.


blackdog  (C 66613)

Oct 16, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: [dqpacker] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

still laughing at this whole thing from the top down Smile


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 16, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Re: [jcain] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sometimes the safe way is the way to go.

I know you were replying to my analogy, but I don't have a problem with Bill making any safety rules he wishes. But having that rule AND a pond AND cheap poppers is such a tease!


yoink

Oct 16, 2009, 6:37 PM
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Re: [blackdog] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
still laughing at this whole thing from the top down Smile

I was just thinking that if I wanted to practice my admittedly novice swooping, maybe Lodi is the place to do it...

I could make 4 hop n pops for the price of 1 at Perris.
Maybe it's a 'learn at Lodi, master elsewhere' solution. I could get it nailed at a quarter of the cost.


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 16, 2009, 7:30 PM
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Re: [yoink] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could make 4 hop n pops for the price of 1 at Perris.
Maybe it's a 'learn at Lodi, master elsewhere' solution. I could get it nailed at a quarter of the cost.

You "nailed" it! Perfecting 90's before anything else that is. I knew somebody was going to take full advantage of the situation. Hurry though. Water might dry up soon.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Oct 17, 2009, 5:28 PM
Post #23 of 74 (4095 views)
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Re: [4dbill] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I could make 4 hop n pops for the price of 1 at Perris.
Maybe it's a 'learn at Lodi, master elsewhere' solution. I could get it nailed at a quarter of the cost.

You "nailed" it! Perfecting 90's before anything else that is. I knew somebody was going to take full advantage of the situation. Hurry though. Water might dry up soon.

Yup, that sounds about right to me. you could do 20 hop n pops for $100. sounds like a great way for a novice to get some experience.


hjumper33  (Student)

Oct 18, 2009, 6:55 PM
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Re: [hcsvader] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember that those $5 do not guarantee anything over 3k, and possibly slightly under, nor do they guarantee you flaps. By the time you get open and the fancy slider off the canopy, its time to flare! They were, however, awesome for making sure my repairs to my track suit wouldnt make it explode.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Oct 18, 2009, 7:46 PM
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Re: [hjumper33] Pond is filled up at Lodi / Acampo Parachute Center! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just remember that those $5 do not guarantee anything over 3k, and possibly slightly under, nor do they guarantee you flaps. By the time you get open and the fancy slider off the canopy, its time to flare! They were, however, awesome for making sure my repairs to my track suit wouldnt make it explode.

So it takes you 2985ft to open and stow your slider?


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