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Is the AFF rating too easy?

 

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ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 22, 2008, 2:12 PM
Post #101 of 447 (2413 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Hey Ozzy make it easy for us lazy asses next time..Wink

Yea every time I try to make a link it don't work so I let you pro's do it Sly


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Mar 22, 2008, 2:21 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 22, 2008, 5:49 PM
Post #102 of 447 (2389 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think the instructor really mess up on this jump.

Quote:
Let me say that I AM NOT saying the instructor did a bad job.

So which is it Ozzie?


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 22, 2008, 9:05 PM
Post #103 of 447 (2369 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty easy click the url button under the text window, paste your link, click url button again, presto you have clicky....Tongue


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 22, 2008, 9:42 PM
Post #104 of 447 (2366 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I POST THIS VIDEO ON SDM FOR THE TOPIC.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=q6cap

I think the instructor really mess up on this jump. Its a level three and you can see how far away he is from her on deployment. The barrel roll was NOT done on purpose but she recovered good from it. Again i just posted the video so people can see how fast things could go wrong. The student was very lucky on this jump.

What is your point. There was nothing signifigantly wrong with the way that skydive was conducted. You think the Instructor should have prevented the roll? Have you ever heard the phrase "inhibiting learning"?


I do not see where the instructor made any grievious errors, nor was the student in danger.

You wanna arm chair quasrterback, get a rating.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 23, 2008, 7:49 AM
Post #105 of 447 (2340 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

ill tell you what. I posted it because I wanted to . Im not going to respond to the comments. You think It was a good level. Well so do I she passed.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Mar 24, 2008, 1:11 PM
Post #106 of 447 (2292 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do not see where the instructor made any grievious errors, nor was the student in danger.

What surprised me about that video was that the instructor did not even attempt to fly his slot.

My AFF training was that I was to do my best to always be able to take the grip if necessary. This instructor does not seem to be making any efforts to maintain close proximity.

_Am


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 24, 2008, 1:56 PM
Post #107 of 447 (2276 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I do not see where the instructor made any grievious errors, nor was the student in danger.

What surprised me about that video was that the instructor did not even attempt to fly his slot.

My AFF training was that I was to do my best to always be able to take the grip if necessary. This instructor does not seem to be making any efforts to maintain close proximity.

_Am


Some instructors give the student more room to fly. Nothing wrong with that, as you dont have to always be on the main side to pull for the student. I have pulled many students from the reserve side. If AFFI's are going to give the student more room to fly, as in this case, they better be good at taking an agressive dock should the student need them.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 26, 2008, 10:29 AM
Post #108 of 447 (2184 views)
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Re: [Allballs] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you believe the Aff rating is too easy?


Depends on who the course director is, which is a problem in itself.


4dbill  (D 11664)

Oct 3, 2009, 9:26 PM
Post #109 of 447 (1962 views)
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Re: [Allballs] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I got my rating in 1990 when Don Yahrling had a course at Skydance. Less than 50% of the candidates passed, which was the norm at the time.
The most valuable flying skill needed to pass was being able to go from point A to B as speedily as possible. A good range of fall rate was a must. I was a stocky fast faller, so I compensated by wearing huge cotton suit. Don, when he saw me for the first time with the suit, called it the "Elephant Suit", but he understood its usefulness when he saw me fly with it. It got the job done on every evaluation jump.
I saw some competition jumpers with high number of jumps fail the course because it required different skill sets. They were great at turning points, falling at the same speed, but they simply didn't have the either vertical or the horizontal range keep up with "out of control" students.
Getting the rating was one of greatest accomplishments in life. It was good that only around 50% of the candidates passed back then. It weeded out the not-so-great jumpers and instructors.
With a relatively low number of jumps at the time (around 550) and being known as somewhat "adventurous," almost everyone at my DZ thought I was wasting my money, surely to fail. Even after passing the course by Tuesday night, with a jump left over (2, 2, 2, 2, 4), more than a few people back at my DZ thought that I just got lucky. Well.. there was no such thing as luck back then when it came to passing the AFF course, because Don ran a tough, but fair, course.
Today's courses -- CAN you get lucky these days?

4DBill


Feeblemind  (D 28621)

Oct 4, 2009, 8:26 AM
Post #110 of 447 (1896 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I do not see where the instructor made any grievious errors, nor was the student in danger.

What surprised me about that video was that the instructor did not even attempt to fly his slot.

My AFF training was that I was to do my best to always be able to take the grip if necessary. This instructor does not seem to be making any efforts to maintain close proximity.

_Am


Some instructors give the student more room to fly. Nothing wrong with that, as you dont have to always be on the main side to pull for the student. I have pulled many students from the reserve side. If AFFI's are going to give the student more room to fly, as in this case, they better be good at taking an agressive dock should the student need them.

I remember that dock from 5 years ago!! Wink It was my first Cat-C and I had a case of the spins.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Oct 4, 2009, 9:34 AM
Post #111 of 447 (1871 views)
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Re: [Allballs] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the overwhelming evidence from the last 30 years is that AFF jumpmasters do have the necessary flying skills. The number of fatalities is so low that the only conclusion is that there is not a problem.
What is not so clear is whether the people given the ratings have a level of teaching skill that is high enough. The flying habits and technical knowledge of AFF grads are in many cases inadequate IMO.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Oct 7, 2009, 6:21 PM
Post #112 of 447 (1684 views)
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Re: [Allballs] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I too got my rating from Don Yahrling and I know I worked hard and earned it. Don taught me so damn much. I too miss the guy.

I haven't read all the posts and I'm not going to so I apologize if this has been mentioned.

The idiotic thing I did was to allow the rating to lapse a number of years ago. And now I have been considering getting it back. Back when I first got my rating in '93, if you let the rating lapse after a while (1 year? Two?) you'd just have to take the whole course over again. Or close to it; maybe only part of the ground prep. Anyway, flash forward to today. I asked a current course evaluator what I'd have to do to get my rating back. "Do one jump with me," he said. I reminded him I'd been out for a while. "Do one jump with me," he said. I wanted to be clear so I told him it had been over five years. "Do one jump with me," he said. I said, "You're not listening..." And he said, "No. You're not listening. Do one jump with me." "What about the five years?" I asked. "Don't matter if it's a hundred years, "he said. "They're dumbing it down, Kim." he said. Incredulous, I asked why. "Because they can't get enough and they can't keep what they got." He told me, referring to Instructors. "Plus, so many newcomers are only dong that head down stuff," he said. "They can't fly on their own bellies anymore. How are they gonna teach it? So where's the pool?" So guess what I now have to do to become an AFF USPA rated Instructor with all the rights, responsibilities and privileges afforded one? Yep, all I have to do is "one jump with [me]." After working with Don and seeing the great pride he took in fostering so many worthy Jumpmasters, I hope I don't have to explain this one to him if I do get my rating back. It would be a travesty and I'd have to hang my head talking to him. But what am I going to do? Force the evaluator to make it harder? Force 6 jumps at two points each out of him? Yarhling used to say, when bestowing ratings on newly minted JMs, "This is not just a license to teach. It's also a license to kill." We knew what he meant and it was always a matter of right to prove him wrong on that one point but now I fear his words are only all too true. Heaven help us if they are at all prophetic. One jump. That's all it'll take.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 7, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #113 of 447 (1673 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

On the other hand, my rating expired about 20 years ago, and I was told that yes, I do have to go through the course again.

My reading seemed to support that, too.

Wendy P.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Oct 8, 2009, 2:53 AM
Post #114 of 447 (1638 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wendy, were you told that recently or twenty years ago when the rating expired? If recently, what does this say about consistency in the course? As I recall consistency was also a problem back when I went through the course. It always came up in our discussions. So it would seem they haven't worked out that bug just yet - if you were told recently that you'd have to go through the whole course again.
I don't really want to go through the whole shebang again but I'd sure as hell have a lot more respect for my new rating if I did.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 8, 2009, 5:12 AM
Post #115 of 447 (1626 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told that recently, by an I/E (or whatever they're called these days) whose judgment I respect.

Wendy P.


MakeItHappen

Oct 8, 2009, 8:12 AM
Post #116 of 447 (1589 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told that recently, by an I/E (or whatever they're called these days) whose judgment I respect.

Wendy P.

That AFF IE ought to reread the IRM.

Someone with an expired USPA AFF rating can challenge the course by doing one eval jump that includes all prep (ground & air).
You also have to pass a written test.

.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Oct 8, 2009, 9:44 AM
Post #117 of 447 (1569 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only doing the one jump - and nothing else - I was told very specifically that that was all. I'm not saying that was correct information but the person is an evaluator of good standing. Been at it - I think from AFF's inception. At least a ground prep and a written test makes more sense to me even though I still think it's a weak re-entry for someone who has not had a rating in about 8+ years. So what if I challenge and actually pass? I have maintained that you can do something right by mistake as well as something wrong. I could get lucky on one jump. I could have a weak evaluator. At this point a current evaluator could even be a former student of mine and might just throw me a bone, so to speak. One jump with or without any ground prep or written test just seems irresponsible to me. And it feels like USPA went in the completely wrong direction when they schemed that one. Can anyone challenge a course regardless of their history? What if someone has 1,000's of jumps, grew up on a DZ, has sat in on dozens of Level ground instructions, and anything else that makes him or her feel very ready. Can they simply challenge on their first time and theoretically be rated after one jump? If a rating has lapsed many years ago, what is the difference between the former holder and anyone else who has been around a while? How the hell can one jump quantify skill? We get rusty. We forget.


MakeItHappen

Oct 8, 2009, 10:38 AM
Post #118 of 447 (1553 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Only doing the one jump - and nothing else - I was told very specifically that that was all. I'm not saying that was correct information but the person is an evaluator of good standing. Been at it - I think from AFF's inception. At least a ground prep and a written test makes more sense to me even though I still think it's a weak re-entry for someone who has not had a rating in about 8+ years. So what if I challenge and actually pass? I have maintained that you can do something right by mistake as well as something wrong. I could get lucky on one jump. I could have a weak evaluator. At this point a current evaluator could even be a former student of mine and might just throw me a bone, so to speak. One jump with or without any ground prep or written test just seems irresponsible to me. And it feels like USPA went in the completely wrong direction when they schemed that one. Can anyone challenge a course regardless of their history? What if someone has 1,000's of jumps, grew up on a DZ, has sat in on dozens of Level ground instructions, and anything else that makes him or her feel very ready. Can they simply challenge on their first time and theoretically be rated after one jump? If a rating has lapsed many years ago, what is the difference between the former holder and anyone else who has been around a while? How the hell can one jump quantify skill? We get rusty. We forget.

PPL that have never had a USPA AFF rating or do not hold a current foreign AFF rating can challenge the course. It requires 3 jumps, main side, reserve side Cat C (the old L3 release) and a Cat D (old L4) plus ground preps debriefing, written test etc.
All of this is in the IRM pg 54. It's too long for me to type it in.

I'm sure if you email Jim Crouch he can send you the section. It's AFF 1.F pg 54

Someone in the 'challenge' mode would not be able to pass unless they are familiar with the ISP and had the air skills to pass the eval jump (assuming a competent evaluator that presents roll-over, spin stopping and pull for student, esp on the one jump challenge)

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Oct 8, 2009, 10:50 AM)


djmarvin  (D 22292)

Oct 8, 2009, 11:05 AM
Post #119 of 447 (1540 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sure if you email Jim Crouch he can send you the section. It's AFF 1.F pg 54

You can also download the IRM Essentials for free. It includes the requirements to challenge any rating. The page number Jan mentions is the same number from the Essentials


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 17, 2009, 9:48 AM
Post #120 of 447 (1374 views)
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Re: [kimemerson] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Kim,
It is funny reading your story, because I also took the course with Don in 1994. It was one of the most challenging things I have done to date. At the time I thought it to be almost absurd that anyone could pass the course the way it was set up. I was 2,2,2,1,2,3. I do not even think there was a 4 given in the course. Anyhow 12 took the class and at the end I know of 4 who made it through. The AFF JM rating when I first earned it was the Golden Chalace of ratings. It was a rating reserved for someone in the sport who was thorough on the ground as well as inthe air. The class was run to weed you out, to find your weakness, which Don was good at and expose it. Once exposed you were told what it was and to go work on it and we will see you in a year.
I also agreed with the JM rating because it allowed you to ride reserve side or at least mentor under a seasoned AFFI, until you were ready to take on some upper level jumps.

If I were to make the rules, I would require 1000 jumps, 12 Hours of Free Fall, Coach rating for at least 24 months with at least 40 coach jumps within the 24 months, and some sort of time in sport requirement.
As it stands now you can be eligible in one year for AFF if you bang out the jumps and after 100 jumps you take the coach course. One year to AFF?
Flame Away.
I am not even going to get into what I think of the current setup.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Oct 17, 2009, 10:20 AM
Post #121 of 447 (1373 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah...i guess if you haven't been jumping for 80 years and don't have 1 billion jumps you were given a pass for your AFF rating.

Give me a break.

Are there some people who don't deserve it? Probably. But most of us earned it just like the rest of you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2009, 10:36 AM
Post #122 of 447 (1369 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah...i guess if you haven't been jumping for 80 years and don't have 1 billion jumps you were given a pass for your AFF rating.

Give me a break.

Are there some people who don't deserve it? Probably. But most of us earned it just like the rest of you.

In ten years, there will be people complaining that the (Whatever the new name might be) program isn't as tough as the ISP instruction program was to certify. It's a cycle that appears in every realm where instruction is involved.
I walked uphill (both ways) to school every day, in heavy deep snow and only had PBJ sandwiches on Wonderbread. Today they got vending machines, pizza delivery, and buses to drive them to school. Tongue


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 17, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #123 of 447 (1335 views)
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Re: [DSE] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree and can laugh at myself without thinking twice. Yes there are exceptions and some very good AFF instructors coming out of the current system.
But I can honestly say I am disgusted how I see courses helping candidates get through instead of telling them they are not ready. I will not ellaborate but losing a student now a days has become accepted I guess. Not in my book. Can it happen yes should it "NO".


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Oct 17, 2009, 4:34 PM
Post #124 of 447 (1330 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am sorry to offend:
I truly hate putting jump number requirements on anything. Just because I have seen guys flying with 200 jumps better than some with thousands. It is more about experience and time in the air. In the coach course we speak of Autonomus. The ability to perform a skill without having to think about the mechanics of it. I feel,(trust me I understand my opinnion doesnt mean much) that a AFF Instructor should have the skills to fly without thinking much about how they are flying. A good example is teaching a child to turn a bike at a corner. Youwould tell them to lean to the right, maybe shift weight, turn handle bars.. It is confusing and takes some practice. Once you understand how to ride a bike and I ask you to turn right at the corner, you would just do it without thinking about it. All I am trying to say is the AFF candidates taking the class should be able to turn at the corner without thinking about how to. We are currently teaching how to ride a bike inthe course.

That Autonomous flight unfortunately comes through hundreds if not thousands of jumps and plenty of air time, in all disciplines.
The AFF course should be there strictly to evaluate whether or not you have the skills. Air/Ground. That is why we call it an evaluation course. What I am seeing now is what can be referred to as AFF 101. Come here, pay this and we can teach you to pass an evaluation jump. Oh and if you get an unacceptable come back next week and we can try it again or maybe practice a few times first.

Then lets throw that guy into real world AFF and watch him have to learn on the job. At whos expense?
We are on the same side here, I am just trying to keep standards high, hence maintaining integrity in the rating and hopefully maintaining safety across the board.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Oct 17, 2009, 7:39 PM
Post #125 of 447 (1300 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] Is the AFF rating too easy? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's not just consider the flying skills, however. There are a lot of guys that have the aerial skills and can't communicate to save themselves. And, there are others that are great instructors on the ground that might not be the best in the air, either. Striking a balance might be where some feel the program has failed.
IMO, aerial skills are much more easily acquired compared to communications skills. Regardless of the field in which I'm working, there are many competent at the task but they cannot teach the task very well.


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