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"Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals

 

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Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 4:02 PM
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"Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals Can't Post

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BikerBabe  (D 18644)

Sep 29, 2009, 4:32 PM
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

uh...wow.

my first thought is: "i can see the shit storm coming from 20 miles away".

Crazy

Of course, Spaceland is a private company, they can do what they want, but in general people hate change, and this is change. I never found the sponsor stuff to be that bad during nationals, it's nice to get free stuff and most competitors know how to tune out the BS. Of course, now it will only be approved BS that we'll have to tune out.


(This post was edited by BikerBabe on Sep 29, 2009, 4:34 PM)


RUN_FMX  (A 59418)

Sep 29, 2009, 4:41 PM
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow.

Ive been a professional athlete (not in skydiving!) for almost 7 years and have never seen anything like this.

We rely so heavily (in some cases entirely) on sponsorship funds to be able to particiapte at any sort of professional level in any sport. Being a sponsored athlete is considered the epitome of success in any sporting circle, therefore it does not come easily and I can tell you ive spent those many years carefully cultivating relationships with my sponsors. My biggest sponsor is Demon Energy (only available in New Zealand and Oz), over here it is bigger than Red Bull. They pay me an annual sponsorship salary, give me uncountable numbers of products, amazing exposure on their website, posters, even on some of their packaging. They help me with travelling to events around the country and are generally amazing people. What do they get in return? ADVERTISING!

If I went to them and said ' Hey, one of the biggest competitions in skydiving is coming up. I need you you to fly me and my rig there, put me up in a hotel, and all the other stuff that goes with it (which is common for any serious sponsor), but oh by the way I cant display your logo anywhere other than my jumpsuit which few people on the ground will ever notice'. They would laugh at me.

I understand what USPA are trying to achieve here, youd have to be silly not to, but this is not the right way to go about it. I dont know what level of sponsorship is involved in skydiving ( over here its fairly minimal) but unless those few Partners are paying ridiculous amount of cash to have that right over everyone else, in other sports this would be a great way to lose a number of 'Big Name' competetitors.

Would be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who has any sort of corporate sponsor in Skydiving, as like I say all my experience stems from a different sport entirely...


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Sep 29, 2009, 4:46 PM
Post #4 of 367 (4904 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

DISCLAIMER:

The following is my own opinion as an individual and does NOT reflect that of my employer.

WOW. I've been a competitor and an event organizer in prior USPA Nationals and I have to tell you...I think this is not a good decision.

Most competitors don't hand out items anyway that is why there are event sponsors. But to tell them they can't at all?! And they will be monitored? WOW. Just WOW!

I understand that it is the USPA Nationals and they own it but come on! Without the athletes how would one maintain the 501-C3 status?

Additionally, athletes get sponsored as ADVERTISEMENT $$ and now you have diminished some of their advertising worth by disallowing even handing out a simple manufacturer pull-up cord?!Shocked

I thought that it was always suppose to be about putting the best interest of the athletes before all other relationships??!!!

I stand corrected.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Re: [BikerBabe] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Spaceland is a private company, they can do what they want

Yup. But this isn't the Spaceland Nationals. It's the USPA Nationals. And therein lies the rub...


Andy9o8  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 4:56 PM
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of people don't like bullies. It's not unreasonable to presume that the reason the host is doing this is because the sponsors have pressured them to do so. If that's the case, then what those corporate sponsors are doing is being bullies. That means it will now likely be presumed, by people attending the event, that any obvious sponsor at the event is a corporate bully. If that happens, then that's the reputation they'll acquire. And people (read: customers) often vote their feelings with their wallets. Short-term gains can sometimes translate into long-term losses.


pilotdave  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this is one of those important items that should be noted in a DZ's bid to host nationals. I'd hope that USPA wouldn't choose a DZ that would do something like that. I think it's complete BS. Seems to be just an attempt to force team sponsors to become official event sponsors. I didn't see anything wrong with the way teams advertised their sponsors at last year's nationals (the only one I've been to). It was obvious which advertisements were "official." Hope this sort of thing doesn't become the norm...

Dave


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Sep 29, 2009, 5:08 PM
Post #8 of 367 (4852 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Spaceland is a private company, they can do what they want

Yup. But this isn't the Spaceland Nationals. It's the USPA Nationals. And therein lies the rub...

Exactly!


c10edges  (C 37592)

Sep 29, 2009, 5:14 PM
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Re: [bbarnhouse] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be nice to have a explanation.


I am short on closing tools and my favorite things about boogies and events are the booths and other things.


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 5:21 PM
Post #10 of 367 (4831 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

DISCLAIMER:

The following is my own opinion as an individual and does NOT reflect that of my home DZ or it's owner.


I don't think there is anything to get 'up in arms' about regarding this issue.

The management has made a considerable investment both in the facilities and overall planning in preparation for what looks to be a great event.

I don't know for certain, but I would guess that Spaceland is only trying to insure the companies that have actually PAID to be there in a marketing capacity, get the most bang for their buck.

Let get real, any major sponsor that has anything to do with skydiving will be represented in the same manner they usually are during the course of events such as this.

I see this as forewarning to those who might take the event as a cheap means of marketing unfairly in a way the 'official' event sponsors don't.

How would you feel if you ran Billy's pin necklace supplies and paid money to have a booth at the event, and out of nowhere Bob's pretty pins and stuff has people walking around selling THEIR junk, having not contributed to the event.

It was happening years ago at the ICAS conventions, various airshow teams that didn't have an 'exhibitors' badge or booth, would walk around the event and try to sell their act to promoters...It's not right or fair to those of us that actually were paying to put on the convention.

Pretty simple really, if your target market is skydivers and you want to market products at an event where many will congregate...pay the organizer to be there.

Try going to the Reno Air Races and selling tee-shirts without paying to do so...I've seen people arrested for doing that.


Edited to add: As far as it being the USPA Nationals...we as members have three options.

~Allow sponsors to pay for the event, and give them some assurance that they will get some kind of 'partner protection' for being involved.

~Pay for the event by raising USPA membership dues a few hundred percent and listen to the arguments from people not going and having to pay, as membership numbers drop and the organization goes under.

~Scrub the Nationals.

This thing IS big business, welcome to the 21st century! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Sep 29, 2009, 5:42 PM)


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:00 PM
Post #11 of 367 (4767 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know how I feel, but I do know I have some questions -

1) do the teams' sponsorship agreements include things like requiring them to hawk the sponsors' products when they are at competitions?

2) will the decree from the dz therefore prevent some of the best teams from competing?

3) do sponsored participants in other sports have similar agreements and restrictions? (motor sports, bicycle racing, golf, bowling, other non-league type high-profile sports)

4) are there differences between professional and amateur competitions?


RUN_FMX  (A 59418)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #12 of 367 (4765 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone with any kind of medium intelligence would at least understand if not agree with USPA's reasons behind this decision. I certainly wouldnt be silly enough to sit here and argue those reasons.

Heres the angle I was coming from though. And please bear in mind i could have a completely distorted view on this because of my experiences in my field, not skydiving.

If you are a sponsored athlete (or im assuming more common in skydiving, a sponsored team?) you are getting paid (whether it be cash or product or otherwise) to advertise your sponsor not just at the event itself but in every opportunity life throws at you. The more financially commited to you your sponsor is, the more the sponsor expects from you in way of advertising. I would be interested to hear, for example, if a particular team who is heavily supported by an outside sponsor does really well at the event, would they be allowed to thank their sponsors at prize giving? Would they be allowed to wear their sponsors t-shirt while doing any media interviews? Would they be allowed to plug their sponsors website in a magazine interview?

More than once in my sport, top level athletes have been PAID by their sponsor to NOT show up at a particular event because this type of boycotting has been ticking over in the background. In this case, loyalty to sponsor means more than any placing at the event itself.

Im seeing it purely from an athletes view, where the job of the athlete is to pump the hell out of a brand, I know theres been a number of events I didnt want to compete at but because it would be great exposure for a sponsor I have done so.

As i said, it could be whole different mindset in skydiving, do you think this rule would actually stop any particular athlete from competing in this event at all? If not, then this is really no big deal. In saying that, if sponsors are as important in skydiving as they are in the arena ive come from...this rule = epic fail.


RUN_FMX  (A 59418)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:08 PM
Post #13 of 367 (4755 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know how I feel, but I do know I have some questions -

1) do the teams' sponsorship agreements include things like requiring them to hawk the sponsors' products when they are at competitions?

2) will the decree from the dz therefore prevent some of the best teams from competing?

3) do sponsored participants in other sports have similar agreements and restrictions? (motor sports, bicycle racing, golf, bowling, other non-league type high-profile sports)

4) are there differences between professional and amateur competitions?

To answer some of Riggerpauls questions:

1). Yes. Hell yes. Every opportunity you get.

2). Yes. Hell yes. It would with my sponsors.

3). No. Never seen anything like this in 7 years.

4). Only the fact that generally theres more money tied up in 'pro' comps.


lost_n_confuzd  (A 55061)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:31 PM
Post #14 of 367 (4725 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm confused...
Quote:
If your team sponsor happens to be one of our event sponsors then you can display these these logos without restriction. Thank you for supporting our efforts to build stronger more productive partnerships within the skydiving industry.

But earlier on they said this....
Quote:
For this reason the hosts marketing group will not allow sponsored teams or individuals to promote sponsors onsite during Nationals. This means sponsored teams/individuals cannot set up any tents, flags, airblades and more showing any company logos. If you have a packing tent you want to use during Nationals but it has a sponsor logo then you must completely cover up the logo on both sides of the material.

Counter productive?


bbarnhouse  (D License)
Pixie
Sep 29, 2009, 6:31 PM
Post #15 of 367 (4728 views)
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Re: [RUN_FMX] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone with any kind of medium intelligence would at least understand if not agree with USPA's reasons behind this decision

I would hope that I am of medium intelligence...maybe not.
I do understand the why of it but that still doesn't make it the right thing to do.
As I said before the athletes really don't hand out a bunch of stuff...they are too busy.

I have been a sponsored athlete and some I repeat some contracts have a stipulation that marketing items must be handed out at events.
I have also organized USPA Nationals as well as level 1 World meets. So I do understand.
My issue is having someone walk around to ensure that the athletes are complying.
Is this a USPA mandate or that of the host?
Lastly, we can agree to disagree, but it isn't necessary to be disagreeable in the process with the inference that folks on here are lacking in mental magnitude.


JohnDeere  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:39 PM
Post #16 of 367 (4713 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

+1

The company's that pay to be and advertise there deserve to get the most bang for there buck! I see nothing wrong with the way they set it up. If the other company's dont like it then maybe they should pay to be thereWink


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Sep 29, 2009, 6:42 PM
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, this represents the complete and abject failure of the USPA to even attempt to manage the interests of skydivers.

It's embarrassing, and honestly - offensive.

_Am


lost_n_confuzd  (A 55061)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:00 PM
Post #18 of 367 (4676 views)
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Re: [JohnDeere] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, airtwardo's example of having a selling booth is one thing. I agree, it's not a flee market where anyone can post a tent and start selling merchandise. That was a poor example for him to use because it goes without saying, imo.

The USPA memo barely touched selling merchandise, so let's push that aside and focus on the real issues.

Now the real issue; athlete's not being able to fly their sponsor's flag, talk shop, or advertise is nothing like setting up a booth. Banning those things goes against the core ideas of getting sponsored.

Go to any BMX race and you'll see sponsor flags EVERYWHERE! Same goes for just about any unconventional sport. We're not talking about the NFL or MLB here, to compare skydiving to any of the major sports is retarded at best.


(This post was edited by lost_n_confuzd on Sep 29, 2009, 7:02 PM)


RUN_FMX  (A 59418)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:03 PM
Post #19 of 367 (4670 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Anyone with any kind of medium intelligence would at least understand if not agree with USPA's reasons behind this decision

I would hope that I am of medium intelligence...maybe not.
I do understand the why of it but that still doesn't make it the right thing to do.
As I said before the athletes really don't hand out a bunch of stuff...they are too busy.

I have been a sponsored athlete and some I repeat some contracts have a stipulation that marketing items must be handed out at events.
I have also organized USPA Nationals as well as level 1 World meets. So I do understand.
My issue is having someone walk around to ensure that the athletes are complying.
Is this a USPA mandate or that of the host?
Lastly, we can agree to disagree, but it isn't necessary to be disagreeable in the process with the inference that folks on here are lacking in mental magnitude.

I hope I haven't given off the wrong vibe with what I've said, please understand, I actually agree with EVERYTHING you've just said. I am the newest of newbies when it comes to skydiving so I automatically bow down to anybody who has been involved with this amazing sport for longer than I have (which is almost everyone on here!)

My comments are based purely on my role as a professional athlete dealing with high-end sponsors on a day to day basis.

I would also like to know who this mandate would be working for, anybody know??

Besides all the politics (that go with any sport i guess) this is one event id love to just sit and watch at, the shit you guys get up to in freefall or under canopy blows my mind.Cool


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:20 PM
Post #20 of 367 (4641 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

From the USPA website -
Quote:
The USPA National Skydiving Championships is USPAs premiere event, giving the entire skydiving industry the opportunity to see and be seen by those who make our sport so exciting.


The entire skydiving industry? Or only those who've paid the money?

In reply to:
The management has made a considerable investment both in the facilities and overall planning in preparation for what looks to be a great event.

So have Perris, Eloy, Chicago, etc. Those dz's get plenty of use out of the facilities they built "for Nationals". They also get lots of business from teams and individual skydivers because they made those improvements. Telling Joe Competitor that he can't have a packing tent that says "Bob's Parachutes" because Bob didn't pay the money to help build those pretty facilities is, imho, messed up.

In reply to:
It's not right or fair to those of us that actually were paying to put on the convention.

This is the USPA Nationals. USPA spends money to put them on (at least it did in the past. Hopefully somebody out there can find a copy of the USPA budget on the website to prove or disprove this statement; I must be stupid because I sure can't find that info anywhere). That money comes from the dues paid by USPA members. It's not right or fair to those who pay to put on the competition, or to the jumpers who are paying to compete, to tell them they can't have a logo on their packing tent or give out pull up cords.

In reply to:
This thing IS big business, welcome to the 21st century!

You're right. Making money is far more important than any other consideration. I rest my case.


beowulf  (C License)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:20 PM
Post #21 of 367 (4645 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

This year will be my third consecutive USPA Nationals. I never felt like there was a lot of advertising at the 07 or 08 Nationals. I don't really think this was necessary or needed.

USPA didn't publish this so I think it's a Spaceland thing.

I think Spaceland is trying to force the major sponsors to pay to advertise at Nationals.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Sep 29, 2009, 7:26 PM)


Beachbum  (B License)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:21 PM
Post #22 of 367 (4642 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

all logos and such must be covered from both sides??? ... so for instance, if Red Bull doesn't want to pony up, their sponsored atheletes would not be able to fly their canopies that have the logo on them ... ??? Is it fair to make someone change their gear, especially something as important as a canopy that a swooper might have done hundreds of practice jumps with ... or the rig holding said canopy that they have practiced their harness control in ??? Not to mention the expense/hassle of covering logos on packing tents, what-have-you or replacing them with unmarked substitutes.

As for the "if they aren't willing to pay, too bad" train of thought ... not all sponsors have unlimited advertising budgets. To me, this attitude seems to unfairly disadvantage smaller companies. I agree that the pressure might have come from large sponsors, but that doesn't mean a dz has to go along with it. There ARE times when saying no to pressure applied via promised additional funds is the right thing to do, I believe! Coming next at Spaceland ... otters with blimp style ad screens on the bottom so they can sell ad space to show in the exit sequence on all videos???


davelepka  (D 21448)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #23 of 367 (4611 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thank you for supporting our efforts to build stronger more productive partnerships within the skydiving industry.


More productive partnerships for who? The USPA? The hosting DZ? Both?

Any of those answers are bullshit. What about the partnerships between the competitors, and the sponsors they have?

Last time I checked, Nationals was a recreational competition put on by the USPA, a membership funded organization, for the benefit and enjoyment of those members. This is not a commercial venture, where the competitors are going after cash prizes in a for-profit capacity (ala NASCAR), this is a chance for USPA members to get together, and see who's got the right stuff.

Any sponsorship they manage to obtain, is almost guaranteed to only be partial sponsorship, and often times is just discounts on equipment or jumps. The companies and DZs that offer this support are the ones who make Nationals happen. Without that support, many of the competitors would not be able to afford the thousands of dollars and immense investment of time it takes to bring a team to the show.

I'm not sure what fucknut in the USPA thought it would be a good idea to pull the rug out from under the competitors, in an effort to 'partner' with the hosting dropzone. No offence Skydive Spaceland, but there's a fair chance that in 2010 Nationals will be far, far away from south Texas. Meanwhile, all the competitors will still be there, wherever it is.

Talk about not knowing what side your bread is buttered on, the USPA has really missed the mark on this one. Are the people in the home office even USPA members? It seems like they go out of their way to fuck over the general population in any way they can.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #24 of 367 (4607 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Andy,

We are slowly but surely getting to USPA, Inc.

They are only chasing the money, EVERYWHERE.

JerryBaumchen


AggieDave  (D License)

Sep 29, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #25 of 367 (4606 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] "Partner protection" @ '09 USPA Nationals [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd hope that USPA wouldn't choose a DZ that would do something like that.
And I would have hoped that the USPA wouldn't allow a DZ to host nationals if they decided they didn't want to host a specific event. Yet, DZs win the bid and decide not to host Canopy Piloting. If a DZ decided that it didn't want to host RW, but wanted to host the rest of nationals, they would be laughed out of the BOD meeting!


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