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Tube Stows

 

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glgflyer

Sep 21, 2009, 6:44 PM
Post #1 of 78 (3764 views)
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Tube Stows Can't Post

Does anyone know of any documented incidents where using tube stows instead of rubber bands actually caused a bag lock or any other problems? Any info or opinions are welcome concerning tube stows. Thanks


mrbiceps  (D License)

Sep 21, 2009, 7:00 PM
Post #2 of 78 (3730 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

i reakon tube stows are unreal. I was changing a rubber band it seemed like every 3rd or 4th pack job and it was driving me nuts. With tube stows i can go up to months without changing them. best $20 money can buy.


glgflyer

Sep 21, 2009, 7:18 PM
Post #3 of 78 (3714 views)
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Re: [mrbiceps] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the input. I hope there will be some more advice and opinions posted on the subject.


NiteQwill  (C 39978)

Sep 21, 2009, 8:34 PM
Post #4 of 78 (3682 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Never used them, but from what riggers have told me, don't double stow a tube stow or you can cause a bag lock. True or not, I'm sure someone more experienced will chime in.

I figure milspec bands are so plentiful and cheap that I just use them exclusively.


ZigZagMarquis  (D License)

Sep 21, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #5 of 78 (3678 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
... but from what riggers have told me, don't double stow a tube stow or you can cause a bag lock. True or not, I'm sure someone more experienced will chime in.

I've heard / figure the same thing, but cannot say that I've ever definitively seen double stows using tube stows being 110% certain as to having caused a bag-lock, but I would still advise against it. Others opinions may differ.

I've also heard told not to mix tube stows and rubber bands on the same bag, but have seen it done lots.

Personally, I've always used rubber bands... mostly because the DZs I frequent have a complementary can of them out and as long as one doesn't get greedy... i.e. seen going to the can and stuffing their pockets & gear bag... they're FREE! Wink


(This post was edited by ZigZagMarquis on Sep 21, 2009, 8:42 PM)


D22369  (D 22369)

Sep 21, 2009, 9:01 PM
Post #6 of 78 (3654 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

evidence, no - my own experience yes.

cant find my log books, have moved too many times and although I am sure they are here somewhere (in boxes still) cant find them.

somewhere around 300-400 jumps I had a baglock/ streamer combo - the last stow did not release, and only part of the canopy got out of the d-bag, it gave me line stretch and threw me around like you wouldnt believe...

Nothing was out of place when we examined the canopy and bag other than the final stow was still in place... nothing was interfering with it, but it was still stowed Unsure as we picked it up the stow fell out.

only thing we came up with was that something got in the stow while there was tension on it and once the tension was released it fell out, what it was we have no idea, I switched to rubber bands at that time.

on a side note it also set up one of the funniest conversations I have ever experienced:
I had 9 students doing static line jumps from the westside, huskys are their mascot - big football star types doing a frat pledge - the convo as I entered the dz shack :

big studly guy -> with a smirk -->"you pack that?"
Me, skinny instructor ---> "yup, and I prolly packed yours too" - the look on his face still makes me smileSmile

btw, all 9 of them had absolutely horrid exits.... did style series out of the plane.

Roy


bclark  (D 22626)

Sep 21, 2009, 9:39 PM
Post #7 of 78 (3633 views)
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Re: [mrbiceps] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Rubber bands are cheap and break when you need them to.

Tube stows are expensive and may or may not break when needed.

I like properly sized rubber bands.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Sep 21, 2009, 9:47 PM
Post #8 of 78 (3623 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Baglock still can and do happens with rubber bands... so
I used to use tube stows, but at now back to the rubber bands just for the reason it's cheap and I always keep a few spare of them (big and small) in my jump suit... Replace them when it just start wear a little. With tube there was some doubts and willind to keep em work a little bit more... and there was some problem as there was only three big tubes in the selling pack, so... If i had a big bag with tube stows I'd prefer to use them, but as soon as haven't the rubber bands makes "rigging" more simple for me))


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Sep 21, 2009, 10:02 PM
Post #9 of 78 (3620 views)
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Re: [bclark] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tube stows are expensive and may or may not break when needed.
I make them for myself, they are cheap too.
I can make them on proper size.


virgin-burner

Sep 21, 2009, 10:54 PM
Post #10 of 78 (3602 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

you always seem to have to replace rubber bands when you're either on a back-to-back load or when you least can be fucked; replace rubberstows at the beginning of the season, and you're good for the year!

and for the baglock-thingy: if you follow the advice of not double-stowing too wide stoes and just twist them, you're supposed to be fine..


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 12:00 AM
Post #11 of 78 (3589 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does anyone know of any documented incidents where using tube stows instead of rubber bands actually caused a bag lock or any other problems? Any info or opinions are welcome concerning tube stows. Thanks

Here is a scenario that fits the bill; this incident should be enough to make it clear that tube stows are not the best idea:

http://www.dropzone.com/...es/Detailed/12.shtml

Students off FJC can recognize tube stows as a risk. It's not just about double wrapping them, for example, rubber bands are designed to break in situations where lines get trapped in the excess loop.

Jump what you like, but understand there's method to the minor inconvenience of correctly sized rubber bands.


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 12:07 AM
Post #12 of 78 (3584 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and for the baglock-thingy: if you follow the advice of not double-stowing too wide stoes and just twist them, you're supposed to be fine..

I wonder if Claire Barnes was given similar advice. It's a safe bet she never realized it would be a link in the chain of events that would kill her.


virgin-burner

Sep 22, 2009, 1:53 AM
Post #13 of 78 (3567 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
and for the baglock-thingy: if you follow the advice of not double-stowing too wide stoes and just twist them, you're supposed to be fine..

I wonder if Claire Barnes was given similar advice. It's a safe bet she never realized it would be a link in the chain of events that would kill her.

edited to add: thats the manufacturer of said stoes that advises this..

as you linked so correctly:

Quote:
From the report it appears the major factors in the tragedy were "poor gear maintenance and packing"

nothing to do with tube-stoes..


(This post was edited by virgin-burner on Sep 22, 2009, 1:56 AM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Sep 22, 2009, 4:44 AM
Post #14 of 78 (3514 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

I was a packer for 3 years, and in that time, 2 people on the DZ while I was there had bag locks. Both were tube stows. I personally won't use 'em. I keep spare rubber bands in pockets of my jump suits and the back pad of my rig, so it's not a big deal to switch 'em out as needed, which for me is once every maybe 20 pack jobs.


Dougiefresh  (Student)

Sep 22, 2009, 5:14 AM
Post #15 of 78 (3497 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Tube stow gave me a bag lock. It was the only one that didn't release. I know now that you shouldn't mix tube stows and rubber bands, but at 85 jumps that little nugget of information was still unknown to me.

I will never use tube stows again. If I see someone with them, I tell them to switch to rubber bands.


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Sep 22, 2009, 5:56 AM
Post #16 of 78 (3470 views)
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Re: [Dougiefresh] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

I've used tube stoes on both my rigs since I first bought skydiving gear. Over 2000 jumps later I have never had a baglock. I have never seen a baglock with tube stoes. I have seen several baglocks and all were with people using rubber bands.

The main factor was the rubber bands were flat against the lines and had more friction in the pull. Tube stoes are rounded and just roll off the lines preventing a baglock from happening.

People like to say that tube stoes won't break. That's bullshit. Get yourself a spring tension meter, they'll pop at about 25 pounds of force. A normal pilot chute in freefall makes about 90 pounds of force. Easy math.

For anyone who may have had a baglock with a tube stoe, how can you be sure that it wouldn't have happened with a rubber band? Every baglock I've seen, the rubber band never broke.

I think the thing to take away from this is that baglocks can happen regardless of if you use rubber bands or tube stoes. In my opinion and my experience, tube stoes are LESS likely to cause a baglock because they will roll off the line and not get caught in a flattened perpendicular pull like a rubber band.

Just like all parts of your gear, if you use the right sized tube stoes (or rubber bands), don't mix different kind of stoes, and don't double wrap one but not the other sort of thing, you'll be just fine.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Sep 22, 2009, 5:58 AM
Post #17 of 78 (3470 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Along with the bag lock issues I had another one. A customer brought me their rig to repack in the middle of winter. It had been in the car and was cold soaked. We pulled out the main for some reason and the black tube stoe he had as a locking stow had NO elasticity. It stayed fulled stretched out after taking the lines out until it warmed up. Then it behaved as normal. So, when cold it had elastic tension on the lines.

I never tested anymore, was too cheap to use them anyway, but this added to me not wanting to use them.

Somebody throw some in the freezer and try it out. I don't think I have any.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Sep 22, 2009, 6:28 AM
Post #18 of 78 (3452 views)
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Re: [glgflyer] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

I've used nothing but tube-stoes for the last 10+ years and never had a problem. I use the smaller version, made for microline, and double knot them per the instructions in the tube-stoe bag, then no need to double stow with microline.


zxcvb  (C 22432)

Sep 22, 2009, 7:26 AM
Post #19 of 78 (3417 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
rubber bands are designed to break in situations where lines get trapped in the excess loop.

Where did you get that from? Read the MIL spec and there is nothing in it about breaking intentionally.


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 10:00 AM
Post #20 of 78 (3381 views)
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Re: [zxcvb] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
rubber bands are designed to break in situations where lines get trapped in the excess loop.

Where did you get that from? Read the MIL spec and there is nothing in it about breaking intentionally.

I thought about rewording this when I wrote it to avoid this semantic issue since it was not just about the design of the band itself but it did not seem significant at the time. However to answer your question; FJC and discussions with experienced jumpers & riggers, and it's self evidently they do, they certainly have a propensity to break before a stronger stow will. Of course if you're arguing that they won't go for it. But make the claim or there's really no point of substance to be disputed.


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 10:02 AM
Post #21 of 78 (3379 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've used nothing but tube-stoes for the last 10+ years and never had a problem. I use the smaller version, made for microline, and double knot them per the instructions in the tube-stoe bag, then no need to double stow with microline.

A statistical sample of one careful jumper does not inform anyone about the risk from their use.


Morrison79  (C 37447)

Sep 22, 2009, 10:11 AM
Post #22 of 78 (3374 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

Rubber bands will NOT always break when you want them to. When I had my Bag Lock I was using rubber bands. Once on the ground and the tension was off the lines/rubber bands it was somewhat easy to remove the lines.
Whether you use rubber bands or tube stows there is always a possibility for a bag lock.


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 10:12 AM
Post #23 of 78 (3374 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
nothing to do with tube-stoes..

That is incorrect. We jump complex & redundant systems, almost all incidents are the result of a chain of events.

Here's is the relevant quote from the fatality report:

"The main parachute could not escape from its deployment bag because some suspension line stowage bands were too large to allow the bag to open under the reduced pilot chute drag conditions"

Perhaps you never read that part and wish to withdraw your statement.


dorbie

Sep 22, 2009, 10:19 AM
Post #24 of 78 (3370 views)
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Re: [Morrison79] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rubber bands will NOT always break when you want them to. When I had my Bag Lock I was using rubber bands. Once on the ground and the tension was off the lines/rubber bands it was somewhat easy to remove the lines.
Whether you use rubber bands or tube stows there is always a possibility for a bag lock.

Sorry if it appeared that I was claiming they would under all circumstances, it's not really my point. My point is a rubber band has a much greater chance of breaking before a tube stow will in scenarios where you need it to, and this is a factor in using rubber bands for stows.

Comparing two options and saying they can both baglock ignores the most critical aspect of choosing the safer option. These systems do not have the same chance of failure.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Sep 22, 2009, 10:24 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 22, 2009, 10:24 AM
Post #25 of 78 (3362 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Tube Stows [In reply to] Can't Post

My first cutaway was due to doubled wrapped tubestows on the locking stows. The packer that packed me didn't know about tubestows.
I now use rubber bands.


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