Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Learning CRW?

 


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Sep 3, 2009, 4:20 PM
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Learning CRW? Can't Post

I jump at a DZ where noone is much interested in CRW (or downright scared of it). A buddy and I are wanting to try some simple stuff - I am flying a SaFire 189 at 1.3, he is flying a Nitron 135 at 1.3. We have done several hop and pops from altitude and have bumped end cells, flown close etc - our forward speeds are almost the same, he sinks a bit more than I do but nothing that cant be fixed using brakes.
What would be the best way for us to try some simple CRW like a 2 stack? Just commit and fly his center cell into the back of my legs and have me grab his canopy and hook my feet into his lines?
I have read plenty and watched several videos, and have a good idea what to do but wanted to ask you experienced folks.
Important point - both of us are broke and cannot afford to travel to another DZ where some experienced CRW dawgs are at.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 3, 2009, 7:51 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm New to CRW but I learned from a great teacher. I've heard others jumping with NON-CRW canopies but you risk more. IF you get wrapped in it, the lines can cut into your leg and maybe even strip your muscle off your legs, just MAYBE but it's a higher risk than those thick dacron lines on CRW canopies. Also CRW canopies have added strength at gripping areas by added tape there. you should look at ads about CRW canopies and understand what and why things are different, there is a reason for it, your safety. I know it's a added expense but what's your legs worth? I went to a CRW boogie and seen a guy get wrapped with a CRW canopy and the red marks across the front of him where the lines rode were pretty amazing, just think what microlines would/could have done. Save you money and wait till you can go to a camp, there are a few listed here also. Most crw camps have FREE demo canopies and people that can advise and teach you properly! It's just not worth the risk of your life to be cheap, nobody just gave you a rig and said go for it, it was worth the money to learn to jump with proper equipment the first time so it's worth the money to try CRW with a proper canopy, just my opinon. You can have a great weekend learning and doing CRW with good teachers and doing it safety too! My first camp, they helped set my rig up and explained how and why they were doing it. It was a great time. Good Luck
By the way, It's a blast!


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Sep 3, 2009, 8:19 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Sep 3, 2009, 9:25 PM
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the guidance...Noone else will touch this question it seems...Unsure


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 4, 2009, 2:11 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't just go out and try stuff like this with a) another newbie and b) non-CRW canopies. Non-CRW canopies have cascaded A-lines, non-Dacron lines and trailing pilotchutes and bridles. I'd stick with flying close and at max bumping endcells. For more than that, get coaching for the 2 of you for sure (just make it happen, either get a CRW jumper to come to you or go out to another DZ) and jump more suitable canopies.


rpersi  (D 22042)

Sep 4, 2009, 5:30 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

A few years ago, two inexperienced guys at my DZ had the same idea with their 9 cells because they fly very similar next two each other. When I say inexperienced, it means no little CRW jumps and formal training. The end result were two cutaways but they were trying to take into a side by side when it imploded. I have done CRW with ellipticals in the form of a stack (not planed) but in your case, get some training and practice under CRW specific canopies first.


vrommel  (D 885)

Sep 4, 2009, 1:26 PM
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Re: [dragon2] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

I couldn't agree more! Even if you and your buddy were highly experienced canopy pilots, contact flight is a whole new game, has it's own unique risks, challenges and rules. When everything goes according to plan then yes, it's as simple as you describe it. When the shit goes down, however, you need to know a) how to recognize what you're dealing with and b) exactly how to deal with it.

When you're alone in the sky and decide to wing it, that's your business. When you're flying in contact with someone else and something goes wrong, a CRW flyer will expect you to react to specific situations in a specific way and his reaction will be based on the assumption that your reaction will be as he expects it. When everybody on a CRW jump is on exactly the same page, the jump instantly becomes a lot safer.

That being said - go out, find an experienced CRW dawg, get briefed, beg/borrow/steal some proper gear and have some fun!!

Be safe,
H


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Sep 5, 2009, 8:16 AM
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Re: [vrommel] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks guys. We have a small boogie this weekend, maybe I will get lucky and someone with some experience will show up.


DARK  (B 31685)

Sep 9, 2009, 1:45 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks guys. We have a small boogie this weekend, maybe I will get lucky and someone with some experience will show up.

i dont know how big your dz is but pd sent us 8 storms set up for crw for our boogie last weekend so you should be able to get them to send out some demo canopies for a couple of weekends maybe send them an email and see what they say


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 9, 2009, 5:59 PM
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Re: [DARK] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey cro, IF you do get some canopies, you should still get some TRAINING ADVICE before you try it, just my opinion. Training can save your life! PD does have demos, you also might want to make sure you get the correct size canopies as well BUT Maybe you should save some money and go to a camp and take your friends(as many as possible!) cause you can split travel/lodging cost PLUS you will have somebody to jump with back at your zone also. win/win That's the BEST ADVICE I can give you.


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Sep 9, 2009, 6:07 PM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Sep 10, 2009, 8:14 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

How about make a road trip up to Maytown Oct 2-4 and do the CRW camp? :-) It's only $50, plus cost of jumps, and for complete CRW newbies like me. CRW canopies will be provided.


andyturner  (C License)

Sep 10, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump at a DZ where noone is much interested in CRW (or downright scared of it). A buddy and I are wanting to try some simple stuff

At the risk of getting shot down in flames and being publicly humiliated....

a. "The Wild guys" that originally started CRW probably didn't have CRW specific kit, the first BASE jumpers probably didn't have BASE specific kit and the first FS guys created a sport based on breaking the rules. Are we today so over cautious that we have forgotten how to have fun on the edge?

b. I see and hear of so many people in the same situation and CRW needs young blood. Can't we either rewrite the rulebook or provide some common sense guidelines like…
1. Micro line can really hurt so wear some really thick cloths like Motorcycle leathers and leather Motorcycle gloves.
2. Watch out for trailing Pilot chutes.
3. Read up on CRW documentation, in particular how to deal with Wraps.
4. End your fun & games at a comfortable height like 3000'
5. Carry extra knives
6. Good luck you crazy kids.

Just my thoughts,
Andy


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 10, 2009, 5:08 PM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bang, Bang, BANG!Wink now that I shot you down, hehe.
A)Your comment about the first CRW people that didn't have CRW setup canopies I not sure is correct. Back in the early days I believe (maybe wrong)that ALL canopies had rope(dacron?) for linesets as microline wasn't around yet and canopies were a lot MORE FORGIVING, NOT these tablecoths people are jumping now. Fun on the edge can also lose more people than gain. Do you get on the jump plane without your gear on? Why not, live on the edge why don't you? Cause you were taught better(I hope) limit your risk to rewards to be in your favor. Fun is living to tell about it and still being unhurt after the jump as well.
B) Didn't know CRW had a rulebook, I always thought them as a guidelines/common sense/RECOMMENDATIONS.
B1)As for wearing leathers, yeah right, jumpers wearing hot leather in 90degree weather here is gonna happen.
B2) Trailing pilot chutes, don't know what to say about them. Just another one of thoses added risk to rewards kind of questions you need to answer. What's a repack going for over there in the UK? Figure 2 pilot chute caused wraps and cut-aways and loss of your main worth the risk? Your call.
B3) Yep, reading is soooo much better than being taught by an experienced instructor that would know how to explain it and answer questions not addressed in the book. First hand knowledge of the equipment and what would be acceptable and how to manage a wrap and what to expect. Yep, I'll go read the book every time, NOT! Did you read a book before doing your first jump without an instructor? come on be that "Wild Guy" and show us how not to do it. just my opinion
Sorry for shotting you down but others also agree that a camp that teaches would be best, even YOU are trying to get a camp together for better learning, so why the bad opinion?
It sucks that equipment and instructor/lessons costs money and it causes people not to get involed with this sport to start with, but again what's you life worth?


andyturner  (C License)

Sep 11, 2009, 10:05 AM
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Bang, Bang, BANG!Wink now that I shot you down
...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH !!!

a) Agreed that Rope was used then simply cos that's what was used. That said, I bet if Micro Line was in vouge then they would of used that without thinking twice. For CRW why don't we use Dacron 600. That would be even safer!

b) Leathers no good? What about Denim, Cordura, Chainmail or even Extra safe condoms?

c) Apart from over the back rotations then you shouldn't be near a trailing PC, unless of course the pilot is low when trying to top dock. Hey the "Wild guys" coped with them!

d) Reading is better than making it up yourself thru trial & error which is what they are doing.

In conclusion, in an ideal world these guys would go on a camp and I'm chuffed to see the enthusiasm and a real "can do attitude". What annoys me is on the one hand seeing a decline in CRW and on the other hand, all the experienced guys putting obstacles in the way of the new guys and not providing enough of the support they need.

Regards
Andy


sebcat  (D 22826)

Sep 11, 2009, 11:59 AM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What annoys me is on the one hand seeing a decline in CRW and on the other hand, all the experienced guys putting obstacles in the way of the new guys and not providing enough of the support they need.
Yeah, safety's a real obstacle. It's better to ignore it.

But then again, what do I know: http://www.daedaluscanopies.com/F4.jpg :)

You could start out with less-than-optimal gear and no training, but people have died because of bridle entanglements, use of improper gear and improper actions during entanglements.

People used to do BASE jumps with modified skydiving equipment too, that doesn't mean it's recommended today.


andyturner  (C License)

Sep 11, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Re: [sebcat] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What annoys me is on the one hand seeing a decline in CRW and on the other hand, all the experienced guys putting obstacles in the way of the new guys and not providing enough of the support they need.
Yeah, safety's a real obstacle. It's better to ignore it.

But then again, what do I know: http://www.daedaluscanopies.com/F4.jpg :)

You could start out with less-than-optimal gear and no training, but people have died because of bridle entanglements, use of improper gear and improper actions during entanglements.

People used to do BASE jumps with modified skydiving equipment too, that doesn't mean it's recommended today.

Oh My Oh My, Seb are you practicing CRW with NO GLOVES. I say that is irresponsible isn’t it!!! HAHAH Kettle calling pot, check colour please ;0))


CReW  (D License)

Sep 11, 2009, 4:33 PM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wish we DID know more about some of the early CRW and how the gear we use has changed through the years. I think it would give us a better understanding of modern training and why CRW Dogs remain so close and tolerant even though the backgrounds are so diverse.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 11, 2009, 7:37 PM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Talk about being annoyied! Decline of CRW, yes. I just don't want the decline to be caused by people giving false advice about how to do it with whatever equipment and lack of knowledge and then new PUPs die trying caused by BAD ADVICE. Yes safety should be a obstacle that must be there to avoid PUPs from doing the same mistakes that cause injuries and death. YOU still didn't answer why you want to do a camp? maybe cause you know I'm(and others here) are right bout getting training. Push people hard nuff and they will see it as a must and they will get it BUT give people an easy-out and they will be lazy and go for it. Again did you get trained to jump or did you just go for it and lived life on the edge. As for support, I'm more than willing to jump with pups but I'm not good nuff to teach it, I traveled 200 miles a day for a week for my training and first 11 jumps. My experence also helped as I had 6 cutaways and over 1300 jumps with 1100 with camera. I did that cause my life is worth it and I also had a great teacher. With experence you can excel fast with proper traning as well. As far as "no gloves" as your experence grows you also can make changes you see fit and accept the risk v rewards with experence. Looks like they are jumping crossbrace canopies with cascading microlines, lots of issues there BUT I'm sure he has hundreds of jumps on it too. This guy has a little over a hundred, how many cutaways? go ahead, live on the edge, duh
check this thread and add it up, many saying lessons, few(1) saying live on the edge. nuff said!


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Sep 11, 2009, 9:23 PM)


StefB

Sep 12, 2009, 2:28 AM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What annoys me is on the one hand seeing a decline in CRW and on the other hand, all the experienced guys putting obstacles in the way of the new guys and not providing enough of the support they need.

IMHO the decline has nothing to do with putting up obstacles and missing support and your statement is not fair.

For most jumpers and almost all new jumpers CRW is way outside their comfort zone. Maybe because it has become some sort of an unknown art and you see too few living species around doing it safe and having fun with it. Showing compilations of wraps and funnels on Youtube doesn't help either.

When you have interest in doing CRW the dogs give you all kind of support. You can rent suitable canopies and you can get expert teaching and you will have a lot of fun. But you have to provide the will to travel (or let others travel) and to learn.


(This post was edited by StefB on Sep 12, 2009, 2:29 AM)


sebcat  (D 22826)

Sep 12, 2009, 5:07 AM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh My Oh My, Seb are you practicing CRW with NO GLOVES. I say that is irresponsible isn’t it!!! HAHAH Kettle calling pot, check colour please ;0))
No, that's not me. That's Icarus' team extreme. I posted it because (as ScoobieDoo pointed out) they're doing CRW with "improper gear". So by all means, CRW can be done with x-braced canopies with cascading microlines, or HMA, or whatever they're using in that picture. Needless to say, these guys have a lot of experience. I wouldn't call them irresponsible, they probably know what they're doing. They know the risks. A new CRW-jumper might not know the risk, and should be given the proper education before finding out the hard way why microlines are bad, or why trailing bridles can kill you.

That's what I believe anyway.

To answer your question, I wear gloves. It's cold without them. Hell, it's cold with them too this time of year.

I should also point out that I am by no means an experienced CRW-jumper. I am glad however, that I took the time to find someone who could teach me the discipline, and provide me with the proper equipment. Am also glad for the time this person is willing to spend teaching me, and I hope that I too will teach CRW to someone one day... I guess that's not very relevant to this discussion, but I get the feeling that CRW is a more friendly discipline than e.g. FS or FF, and also a discipline more open to new-comers.

I also want you to know that I find your reply to my post to be a bit patronizing in the way it's formulated, with the laugh, the smiley and the added exclamation marks. Was that intended, or am I guilty of the old "misinterpreting the state of mind behind the author of a written reply"-phenomenon?


andyturner  (C License)

Sep 13, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Re: [sebcat] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok lets knock it on the head here,

1. Agreed. I am a believer in education, proper equipment etc. This approach will safely “Grow” CRW for the “mainstream”. I too agree that the best thing for these guys is a proper course in an ideal world. That said if these guys are confident & competent enough to go it alone on nominal canopies then we should provide them with correct and precise technical guidance as requested accompanied with a large disclaimer and leave it to the DZ control to Police them.

2. I personally believe that skydiving should be an adventure and not just some plastic replica like a Tandem. FYI An adventure is an activity that comprises risky, dangerous or uncertain experiences. The term is more popularly used in reference to physical activities that have some potential for danger, such as skydiving, mountain climbing, and extreme sports. In my opinion, if the risk is diluted to 0% alchohol through thorough training, proper equipment, perfect weather conditions, conservative decision making etc, etc then the activity for me ceases to be adventurios and therfore golf may become more exciting.

3. Outside the comfort zone my arse! BASE Jumping is more popular than CRW. The reason CRW is on the decline is because its not perceived as being cool and nobody does it anymore. It’s easier to find a “Mentor” and get into BASE then CRW.

4. Sebcat – I was just taking the P. Don’t take it personally.

LOVE YOU ALL,
Andy


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 13, 2009, 6:19 PM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

1)I never seen DZO people police anybody that came with their own equipment and acted like they knew what they were doing.
2)new Crw PUPs should have to drink a cola before they start drinking alchohol, the lower we can get the risk for PUPs for better for them, they can then advance to higher risk taking after they get the feel for it. if you think PUPs should take risk cause thats what you want maybe you should take up golf and get off the DZ with your bad advice!
3) It took me only 3 weeks to find a "Mentor" and he was a great teacher with plenty of info. that took 2-3 hours of walk thru and teaching even before we jumped. I also did read about how and what equip should be used as well as what to do when problems happened which helped speed the teaching and don't forget about my past experence, which always helps. I wasn't a newbe to sport as a whole like these guys are! Yes, I had to travel a little to get it done but my life is worth it!
Maybe you should take up base jumping yourself, there's nothing like a big risk like that and while your at it, live life on the edge like you say for everybody else. Use normal gear to! one that takes about 500 feet to open on a bridge about 450 high, plz! make sure you get vid also so we can show what living on the edge can do and why proper equip. should be use.
4) don't take it personally either .


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Sep 13, 2009, 6:29 PM)


andyturner  (C License)

Sep 15, 2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I jump at a DZ where noone is much interested in CRW (or downright scared of it). A buddy and I are wanting to...

Guy’s,

any DZ on the planet will advise you to do a training course for very good reasons and totally I agree. We lost two jumpers on Sunday. They had thousands of CRW jumps and all the right gear. Read about it here: http://www.dropzone.com/...8;page=unread#unread


If you still want to go it alone then that’s your choice though I recommend you, at the least, do some reading, especially on how to deal with Wraps. If it goes wrong then it will happen extremely quickly so go as slow as possible to give yourselves the best chance of survival. Here is a link to a manual. http://www.vorosmeteor.hu/...s/irodalom/83CRW.PDF

Good luck. I respect your decision either way.

Best Regards,
Andy


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Sep 15, 2009, 4:08 PM
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Re: [andyturner] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the link Andy, I had already read that manual before we started flying close. All we are doing is bumping end cells, we decided the risk of trying docks with microline and trailing pilot chutes was more than the reward (for now).
If I ever get enough money to attend a camp I will.
For whoever asked about cutaways, I have 2 - one low speed with no RSL and one high speed (multiple broken lines and spinning on my back at 2600') with an RSL resulting in 9 complete linetwists on my reserve. I got them out in time to avoid some powerlines and stood it up in the middle of a soybean field.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Sep 15, 2009, 6:52 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] Learning CRW? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure of your money but IF you start saving 10 or 20 a week over the next 9 months, you would have plenty to take a week off work(vacation),travel to a camp/dz CRW Boogie, get lessons and became a SAFE pup. There are a few good CRW camps always getting posted, next year in Aug is the Wis Boogie which is getting bigger each time. They will teach Pups on Thurs/Fri as well as fly smaller stuff Sat and Sun. 4 days in all. Its only about 10-14 hr drive for you if you jump in tenn/Mike Mullin's dz area. If your friend(s) came along, you can carpool/share expenses. YOU can only know if saving money for this is worth it.
Good Luck and hope to meet you there


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Sep 15, 2009, 7:34 PM)



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