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A better way out of line twist!

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Aug 24, 2009, 6:58 PM
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 A better way out of line twist! Can't Post
I seen a post in the wingsuit forum about line twist by matto765. Here is his post

Quote:
There is also another method that I have found to be almost 100% effective to getting out of line twist. Jonathan Tagle tought me it. Its kind of a 2 step method. (#1) When you get into line twist, instead of grabbing your risers and spreading them, push them together. This brings the twist down towards the risers which makes it easier to get out of them. (#2) While squeezing the risers together, twist them in the same direction as the linetwist. This sounds counterproductive, but it will spin you out of the twist. I'm not really sure why it happens that way, but my guess would be that it involves Newton's 3rd Law of Motion (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). By trying to twist the risers into the line twist (the action), your body will spin in the opposite direction (the equal and opposite reaction). This method works like a charm and has saved my ass many times from what would have been an immediate chop if I used any other way to remedy linetwist. I have a video of me using this technique that I will upload to youtube later if anyone wants to see it in action.

I tried this this last weekend and it worked like a charm! Got out of a couple of line twist fast than ever! I just want to get it out here so hopefully more will see it and maybe learn a better way to get out of line twist!

Also from him

Quote:
Here the link to the video I mentioned in my previous post. There are two points in the video where I have line twist on opening and use the technique that I mentioned (one at 1:47, and the other at 3:03). I didn't have to kick at all during either of those two openings to get out of the twists. Squeezing the risers together and twisting them did it all for me.

(This post was edited by JohnDeere on Aug 24, 2009, 7:00 PM)

MakeItHappen

Aug 24, 2009, 7:25 PM
Post #2 of 116 (7951 views)
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I seen a post in the wingsuit forum about line twist by matto765. Here is his post

Quote:
There is also another method that I have found to be almost 100% effective to getting out of line twist. Jonathan Tagle tought me it. Its kind of a 2 step method. (#1) When you get into line twist, instead of grabbing your risers and spreading them, push them together. This brings the twist down towards the risers which makes it easier to get out of them. (#2) While squeezing the risers together, twist them in the same direction as the linetwist. This sounds counterproductive, but it will spin you out of the twist. I'm not really sure why it happens that way, but my guess would be that it involves Newton's 3rd Law of Motion (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). By trying to twist the risers into the line twist (the action), your body will spin in the opposite direction (the equal and opposite reaction). This method works like a charm and has saved my ass many times from what would have been an immediate chop if I used any other way to remedy linetwist. I have a video of me using this technique that I will upload to youtube later if anyone wants to see it in action.

I tried this this last weekend and it worked like a charm! Got out of a couple of line twist fast than ever! I just want to get it out here so hopefully more will see it and maybe learn a better way to get out of line twist!

Also from him

Quote:
Here the link to the video I mentioned in my previous post. There are two points in the video where I have line twist on opening and use the technique that I mentioned (one at 1:47, and the other at 3:03). I didn't have to kick at all during either of those two openings to get out of the twists. Squeezing the risers together and twisting them did it all for me.

There are a couple of BG vids on this too. But from the limited vids I've seen, IIRC it only works well when the canopy is not diving.
And one potential hazard is that you might release one brake by accident, that might complicate the situation.
It does look like a promising alternative, but the 'gotchas' have not been identified yet.

.

matto765

Aug 24, 2009, 7:38 PM
Post #3 of 116 (7918 views)
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I have used this technique many times when the canopy was diving and it still worked very well. I'm sure if it was spinning hard enough though, nothing would help. You are right about the possibility of releasing a brake by accident. Even with that possiblity, I still believe that this technique is way better than spreadng the risers apart. Spreading your risers apart after the lines have twisted seems to work against you and make it more difficult to kick out of the twists.

Edit to add: Just for reference as well, the canopy I was using in the video a few posts above was an Icarus Neos 99 loaded at about 2.0

(This post was edited by matto765 on Aug 24, 2009, 7:40 PM)

Aug 24, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #4 of 116 (7895 views)
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Like i said i have only used this one time but it made me a believer the first time!

BTW the line twist i had was diving. I will continue to use it and see how it works out.

k-dubjumps  (D 38495)

Aug 24, 2009, 10:09 PM
Post #5 of 116 (7830 views)
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 Re: [JohnDeere] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
Something to keep in mind is to be very aware of your hand and finger placement on the risers and the line twists as they move down towards the risers. I actually just watched a video today where the jumper got his finger/hand caught in the risers as they were being twisted. It looked quite painful!

Aug 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
Post #6 of 116 (7814 views)
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Something to keep in mind is to be very aware of your hand and finger placement on the risers and the line twists as they move down towards the risers. I actually just watched a video today where the jumper got his finger/hand caught in the risers as they were being twisted. It looked quite painful!

Not to mention, what do you do if BOTH hands are caught up and you can't get em out? That would REALLY hurt!

freeflyit  (A 11286)

Aug 25, 2009, 5:31 AM
Post #7 of 116 (7689 views)
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>>if it was spinning hard enough though, nothing would help<<

You know it.

I have a theory about this (could be completely wrong) but by using this method, you're not trying to arrest the motion and bring its momentum down to zero. Then after you're going from a dead stop to try and muscle the risers to spin out. What you are doing is aiding the twist to progress naturally and therefore save a ot of energy. It usually it works out that the twist resolves faster than trying to kick out.

Think of sitting on swings and twisting. Once you swing all the way in one direction, the natural thing to happen is that the swing will twist back due to tension. Same principle (I think).

Just for the record, I have never done this before personally as I was never in twists for that long.

michalm21  (Student)

Aug 25, 2009, 7:23 AM
Post #8 of 116 (7623 views)
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Also, after seeing this post weeks ago, I tried it when I had some linetwist on a wingsuit jump.
Was amazed how quickly and effortlessly I got out of it

LuckyMcSwervy  (B 32709)

Aug 25, 2009, 10:45 AM
Post #9 of 116 (7523 views)
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I had line twists last night that I had to fight to get out of. Next time I'm definitely going to give this a shot.

champu  (D 28302)

Aug 25, 2009, 12:54 PM
Post #10 of 116 (7440 views)
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 Re: [matto765] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
hmm... I'm watching the video and I'm not seeing the riser twisting you're talking about. It looks like you're just pushing your risers together and waiting for the twists to work themselves out. In otherwords, during the process you are still spinning yourself out of the twists relative to your canopy. (which, don't get me wrong, may have its own merits.)

The riser-twisting technique I'm familiar with involves intentionally inducing line twists low in the risers, below the toggles and very quickly, to counter the twists forming above the risers. This involves no net rotation between you and your canopy which is what makes it almost effortless regardless of how many twists you have or what your canopy is doing. What it allows you to do is get your hands above the twists and get the canopy flying level, and once you've done that you have all the leverage in the world to swing yourself out of the twists you made in your risers.

AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 25, 2009, 1:13 PM
Post #11 of 116 (7430 views)
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 Re: [LuckyMcSwervy] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
I had line twists last night that I had to fight to get out of. Next time I'm definitely going to give this a shot. Thanks for the advice.

NO - NO - NO

Don’t be too quick to take advice off the internet and make changes to your current foundation of skydiving practices. There are inherent dangers doing this as already mentioned getting fingers, hands and or forearm caught in the risers. If this happens you MUST get out of it or you are supremely fucked! I have seen 3 videos that risers have twisted around an arm and this is a very dangerous situation to create for yourself. During inflation and irregular/erratic flight keep your hands clear of the risers and save yourself from unseen potential hazards until you gain more knowledge and experience.

Something I strongly caution the students I train is being quick to make changes to the foundation of SAFE skydiving practices that we developed during their training, especially advice on the internet or packing room floor from well intentioned skydivers, many who have thousands of jumps, spend 10k a year at tunnel camp and can cut a billion points on a 4-way, yet still cannot fly a decent pattern and landing or even know what a flat turn is and how to properly execute one. Hell, I have seen AFF Instructors who are afraid to stall thier canopy! WTF Ghost Rider? Over...
There have been many skydivers with mad freefall skills perish as a direct result of discontinued safety training.
A lot of good those freefall skills do in a casket.

Many skydivers have safety priorities fucked up – I have never been on a jump plane and the person sitting next to me has a femur sticking out of the side of his leg or is dead. So be careful when you decide to accept advice and make changes to the practices you should employ at your experience level…

format  (B 15348)

Aug 25, 2009, 2:53 PM
Post #12 of 116 (7380 views)
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 Re: [AFFI] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
So be careful when you decide to accept advice and make changes to the practices you should employ at your experience level…

For instance: "take this advice ONLY if"
When?

It's just a question.

AFFI  (D 25538)

Aug 26, 2009, 7:37 AM
Post #13 of 116 (7208 views)
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For instance: "take this advice ONLY if"
When?
Excellent question.

Research is the first thing that comes to mind.
Rather than just hearing of an alternate method and quickly deciding - “Next time I'm definitely going to give this a shot” – Instead, gather all the facts you can, run it by some experienced, “safety oriented” instructors and make the best informed decision possible. For example, I was getting a lot of packing advice when I first started, so I found the most experienced rigger I could, picked their brain and gathered facts.

Most skydivers never get to witness ultra intense carnage first hand like walking up to a buddy laying in a field soaked in blood having just taken their final shit in their pants. Perhaps that contributes to the complacency so prevalent in our sub-culture but always keep in mind that in this sport, it is EASY to get all corpsed-up as a result of a bad decision so carefully take into consideration all the Pros and Cons before making a decision that could lead you to a disastrous end.

LuckyMcSwervy  (B 32709)

Aug 26, 2009, 9:39 AM
Post #14 of 116 (7153 views)
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 Re: [AFFI] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
I had line twists last night that I had to fight to get out of. Next time I'm definitely going to give this a shot. Thanks for the advice.

NO - NO - NO

Don’t be too quick to take advice off the internet and make changes to your current foundation of skydiving practices.

Thanks. I had a 2 line twists yesterday and bringing the risers together never even entered my mind. My brain went right to what I was taught in training.

cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2009, 12:22 PM
Post #15 of 116 (6942 views)
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 Re: [matto765] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
Danny, I followed this thread from the one in the wingsuit and watched the video with interest. I sort of see it working, but not sure, as it almost looks like the twists are working their way out when you squeeze the risers on the first one, and the second one is difficult to see from the belly angle. I'll give it a try some time.

A way of getting out of twists is to not get into them in the first place. Do you think you might be inducing some of the twists by grabbing the risers early? I know they are just snapshots in time but see the attached screenshots.

Also, has anyone commented or the stowing (or lack thereof) of the excess brake line. Sorry to say, but it looks like an accident waiting to happen to me. Be careful.
Attachments: MattoTwists1.jpg (35.8 KB)
MattoTwists2.jpg (41.0 KB)

JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 30, 2009, 10:22 AM
Post #16 of 116 (6817 views)
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I tried the squeeze technique on a tandem jump last weekend. Seemed to work quickly, faster than pulling apart.

An earlier poster mentioned not getting your fingers trapped. I used open hands to push inward. Never occurred to me to grab and stick my fingers into harm's way. Maybe it's all those years of using power tools, table saws and hand guns. I watch where I stick my digits.

(This post was edited by JohnMitchell on Aug 30, 2009, 10:22 AM)

Sangi

Aug 30, 2009, 10:49 AM
Post #17 of 116 (6803 views)
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Thanks for sharing this, gonna definitely try this next time I get into linetwists

Aug 30, 2009, 8:07 PM
Post #18 of 116 (6725 views)
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Quote:
An earlier poster mentioned not getting your fingers trapped. I used open hands to push inward.

That is how i did it! I should have said it in my OP but fogot. I would think it would be commen sence.
But then again commen sence is not that commen any more

mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Sep 1, 2009, 10:55 AM
Post #19 of 116 (6588 views)
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Quote:
There is also another method that I have found to be almost 100% effective to getting out of line twist. Jonathan Tagle tought me it. Its kind of a 2 step method. (#1) When you get into line twist, instead of grabbing your risers and spreading them, push them together. This brings the twist down towards the risers which makes it easier to get out of them.
This makes scientific sense. The force of the parachute above the top twist spreading the risers apart is more effective than hands trying to spread risers apart below the bottom twist. By pressing risers together, the whole series of twists move downwards, and makes the parachute's untwisting job much easier - and can more quickly 'accelerate' the parachute's ability to do the untwisting for you.

If you play with a playground swing and twist the swing while sitting in it, the phenomenon still works (pressing together rather than pulling apart) although it's not quite apples to apples, it demonstrates the physics involved.

This solution isn't universal, it would stop working if the twists are all the way to your neck, so you don't have any room to press risers together, but by then, the twists are probably making you spin and you're already reaching for the chop. (But be noted of this limitation during severe line twists, the super-severe type that are the culprit in certain skydiving deaths in the past)

Quote:
(#2) While squeezing the risers together, twist them in the same direction as the linetwist. This sounds counterproductive, but it will spin you out of the twist. I'm not really sure why it happens that way, but my guess would be that it involves Newton's 3rd Law of Motion (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction).
Yes, doing this, simply accelerates your body in the opposite direction, helping your body spin in the "untwist" direction much faster. (By the time you're restrained by your main lift webbing in your attempt to untwist, you've already helped give the momentary surge of acceleration in the untwist direction, speeding up the self-resolution of the linetwist)

The technique appears scientifically sound, based on university physics and on research and positive word-of-mouth from multiple sources, and I'll be tempted to try this new line-untwist technique on a future jump, but I'll continue to be mindful of my cutaway handle - like I nearly reached for on my line-over event.

There may be unforseen limitations of the techniques, especially as it very much depends on the angle of lines leading into the twist. Excess linetwists give too-steep angles (disallows gravity to help untwist) and too few linetwists might give too-shallow angle which may give less untwisting force (less twist tension to help untwist, although there's still enormous "spreading" force of the parachute). I'm not sure what the ideal variable values (untwist angle) is, but I think it is a semi-complex mathematical function involving the force of gravity acting on the twist, and the separation of the two lines apart from each other and/or the angle of lines leading into the twist, and the amount of twist tension. My university/high school memory is foggy, but I wonder if there's a "critical angle" somewhere in there - obviously pushing the risers together in most linetwist situations would help bring the angles of the lines above, to more favourable values for these variables....

I see no reason to dismiss this new line-untwist technique, at least based on common-sense Physics knowledge.

It does need to be tested more in the real world, but we need time to familiarize ourselves with the limitations and unforseen dangers of this 'new' technique.

That said, it's easier to memorize and train on just #1 than both (#2 is probably marginal at best, in theory)

(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Sep 1, 2009, 11:14 AM)

Sep 1, 2009, 11:48 AM
Post #20 of 116 (6580 views)
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One more example from two days ago: http://www.skydivingstills.com/...635979657_qSsBT-A-LB. After clearing the linetwists, I realized I had a stepthrough too. It flew fine so I recorded a nice message for my packer.

Been using that method for a while now and it's worked every time. I do think that there's a greater chance of unstowing a toggle by accident though. But it hasn't happened to me yet.

Dave

ozzy13  (D 29344)

Sep 1, 2009, 12:41 PM
Post #21 of 116 (6537 views)
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 Re: [pilotdave] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
here is another video

Deyan  (D 322)

Sep 1, 2009, 1:14 PM
Post #22 of 116 (6525 views)
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I realized I had a stepthrough too. It flew fine so I recorded a nice message for my packer.

No offense but if you leave your parachute for packing with a stepthrough ,don't be surprise if you get it this way. No entanglement,half brakes,slider and PC done is your job.

blue skies

Sep 1, 2009, 1:48 PM
Post #23 of 116 (6515 views)
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No offense but if you leave your parachute for packing with a stepthrough ,don't be surprise if you get it this way. No entanglement,half brakes,slider and PC done is your job.

I didn't. Brakes were set, slider set, pilot chute cocked, and everything straight. The packer was a new jumper (just got her A license a couple weeks ago). She flipped the bag when bringing it over the container. Wasn't all her fault. I happened to notice the bag sitting there kind of randomly placed as she was about to stow the risers, and I questioned how she was going to know which way to flip it to put it in the container. She brought it back over the container to do it again correctly, and that's most likely when it flipped through. She probably would have gotten it right if I hadn't said anything. But anyway, she packed for me again after that and stopped after she stowed all the lines so I could show her how to bring the bag over without flipping it. Lesson learned for both of us.

Dave

(This post was edited by pilotdave on Sep 1, 2009, 1:49 PM)

NiteQwill  (C 39978)

Sep 1, 2009, 10:19 PM
Post #24 of 116 (6428 views)
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 Re: [pilotdave] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
One more example from two days ago: http://www.skydivingstills.com/...635979657_qSsBT-A-LB. After clearing the linetwists, I realized I had a stepthrough too. It flew fine so I recorded a nice message for my packer.

Been using that method for a while now and it's worked every time. I do think that there's a greater chance of unstowing a toggle by accident though. But it hasn't happened to me yet.

Dave
Talking to your packer after/during the malfunction just made me laugh. I wish to be that calm. My first 8-10 line twists I was more along the lines of, "WTF?!? Ok, (alti) I got time. DAMNIT! Untwist bitch!!" Great video!

format  (B 15348)

Sep 2, 2009, 12:04 AM
Post #25 of 116 (6399 views)
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 Re: [pilotdave] A better way out of line twist! [In reply to] Can't Post
OP said:
Quote:
(#2) While squeezing the risers together, twist them in the same direction as the linetwist. This sounds counterproductive, but...

In your video you twisted in opposite direction??
You were actually untwisting it, check it out

Now what?

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