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Back flip exit on tandem

 

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Vercha

Aug 10, 2009, 10:16 AM
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Back flip exit on tandem Can't Post

Hey, guys,

I had my tandem jump in one drop zone with a back flip exit.. it was fun. However, when I went to another drop zone to continue my training, they mentioned that a back flip exit on a tandem jump is extremely dangerous and said I won't be getting that in their dropzone..

So I was wondering if it is actually dangerous or it just depends on a drop zone?

Thanks a lot in advance!


apogee77  (D 1000000)

Aug 10, 2009, 10:27 AM
Post #2 of 138 (9151 views)
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends, back flips are not the best idea out of a King air/other small door plane. IMHO, it's extra work getting turned around in any plane (except CASA/Van) and after doing a dozen+ jumps a day it's not worth the effort.

Will


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 10, 2009, 10:32 AM
Post #3 of 138 (9140 views)
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

At least 1 major manufactor forbids any type of flip during exit except during an exit from a tailgate aircraft. Stable exits help to prevent many types of issues that can occur on a tandem skydive.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Aug 10, 2009, 11:08 AM
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends. The objective should be to get stable and deploy the drogue as quickly as possible, and in that order without undue rushing.

Intentional backflips increase the likelihood of instability, and increase freefall speeds, and thus should be avoided. However, sometimes they happen. That's especially true when jumping from tailgate airplanes, where a single backflip could actually be used to nicely position the tandem pair in the relative air.

I wouldn't say a single backflip is necessarily dangerous, but it shouldn't be sold as a desirable activity. Tandem jumps are already extreme, we don't need to be adding to risk level, so I'd avoid doing backflips.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 10, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering that Tandem skydiving is a training method according to the USPA, and all USPA members who do tandems need to be USPA TI's, they should realize there is no added benefit, only risk, and it serves no purpose in the introduction of skydiving, nor the instructional process.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Aug 10, 2009, 4:57 PM
Post #6 of 138 (8956 views)
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not a TI. (so grain of salt is suggested)

However, I have been shooting video for a number of years and I have filmed dozens of different TIs.

There are a few who do a back flip out of a C-U206 and come out throwing the drogue as they come back face to earth.

Out of 5 or 6 hundred 206 tandems I've filmed, these are the most stable and clean drogue throws I have ever seen out of a 206.

I'm just sayin.................. (remember,,,, grain of salt)


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Aug 10, 2009, 4:58 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 10, 2009, 6:58 PM
Post #7 of 138 (8874 views)
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends if you are talking about a back flip that is started with the student in the plane and the instructor out the door, and launched backwards like that? These are more dangerous (not that I have never done themWink) because regaining stability takes longer, but doing a nice gainer is a good skill to have and practice.

Remember when you learned to skydive? and obtained your rating? you were made to go unstable on purpose and recover, the better and more current you get at these skills the better you will be (and more comfortable) at recovering from them when they happen unintentionaly.

The guys that play with different exits tend to be the more solid tandem flyers, and the ones that only ever do poised exits (in most cases) tend to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing.

Gainers are perfectly safe, fun and not that difficult. it really does depend though on the aircraft and instructor. For a skilled indsructor they are possible on all aircraft. for some instructors i would not even recommend continuing with taking paying customers, but that is up to them and thier superiors!

Manufacueres will always be conservative with what they allow, this is usually due to litigation and not common sense.

IE's and DZO's will continue to put through instructors that are clearly not ready to do so, this has a negative effect on the skilled guys as thay all have to play by the same rules.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 11, 2009, 6:47 PM
Post #8 of 138 (8719 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Remember when you learned to skydive? and obtained your rating? you were made to go unstable on purpose and recover, the better and more current you get at these skills the better you will be (and more comfortable) at recovering from them when they happen unintentionaly.

That's fine and dandy as long as you are taking those chances with experienced jumpers, and not first time students who do not have the experience to make the decision to take on an added risk.

Quote:
The guys that play with different exits tend to be the more solid tandem flyers, and the ones that only ever do poised exits (in most cases) tend to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing.

Bull. They tend to be the ones that are burnt out and don't realize that once they take money for a skydive, it's not theirs to do with as they please. They are the carnies, rather than the instructors. They are the ones trying to milk a tip, rather than do the job as safely as possible as they were hired to do.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Aug 11, 2009, 9:23 PM
Post #9 of 138 (8699 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

New Tandem Instructor - "Warning"

I think there should be some clarification made in regards to an exit with intentional flips and one with a "gainer".

Out of a plane such as a PAC-750 where the pair is seated on the edge of the door a gainer exit affords a very quick drogue throw.

Now intentionally doing flips that are not stable and control can only be established by radically changing your body position should not be done.

Personally I do tandems out of 182, so just lovely dives out the door, but my first 16 or so paid tandems were from a PAC.

Flame on.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 11, 2009, 11:25 PM
Post #10 of 138 (8672 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

>The guys that play with different exits tend to be the more solid tandem
>flyers, and the ones that only ever do poised exits (in most cases) tend
>to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing.

Right! Just like the more solid newer jumpers jump Xaos-27's, and the more incompetent/uncomfortable jumpers jump bigger, boring canopies. And who wants to be incompetent?

>For a skilled indsructor they are possible on all aircraft.

Yep. And for a REALLY skilled instructor, he doesn't even need to hook up the laterals before exiting. It's much more comfortable for the student, and his expertise will prevent the student from dropping out and/or starting a really bad sidespin.

Of course, for the less competent, more uncomfortable instructors, hook up those laterals per the manufacturers recommendations! Everyone will take pity on your lack of daring, but if that's what you have to do, so be it.

>Remember when you learned to skydive? and obtained your rating?
>you were made to go unstable on purpose and recover, the better and
>more current you get at these skills the better you will be (and more
>comfortable) at recovering from them when they happen unintentionaly.

Exactly. And many tandem masters need to do an intentional cutaway before they get their rating. Indeed, the really expert tandem masters will do an intentional cutaway on every tandem jump, thus giving the student two jumps for the price of one AND demonstrating rock-solid confidence in their gear.

And again, if you are a coward, by all means, don't cut away - give the student less than their money's worth. Perhaps you could give the brave TM's $35 a tandem and the cowardly TM's $25 a tandem. That way you are paying for skill and not lack thereof.


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 12, 2009, 12:54 AM
Post #11 of 138 (8654 views)
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Re: [billvon] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

having a bad day bill, aren't you? Smile

on a serious, no joking side:

the worst backflip from a tandem i saw (video) was from a 206 with the TI going backwards out of the door. he nearly went into a sidespin Unimpressed - bad idea in my book

if you go from a skyvan or similar: well a backflip can be a good way to exit if your student performs as trained. if not - well your mileage may vary. personally i don't like to do tandem from skyvans


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 12, 2009, 3:35 AM
Post #12 of 138 (8635 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's fine and dandy as long as you are taking those chances with experienced jumpers, and not first time students who do not have the experience to make the decision to take on an added risk.

We'll that all comes down to where you work and what the policies are there isn't it. i have worked at places that allow 'cool' exits and places that do not. generally though there is a 5 second rule on the drougue.

In reply to:
Bull. They tend to be the ones that are burnt out and don't realize that once they take money for a skydive, it's not theirs to do with as they please. They are the carnies, rather than the instructors. They are the ones trying to milk a tip, rather than do the job as safely as possible as they were hired to do.

The reality is that a high percntage of tandems are there for a carnival ride, if you want to be a vanilla instructor, that is your prerogative.

We don't generally get tips where I am from. That is an american thing.


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 12, 2009, 3:47 AM
Post #13 of 138 (8631 views)
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Re: [billvon] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Right! Just like the more solid newer jumpers jump Xaos-27's, and the more incompetent/uncomfortable jumpers jump bigger, boring canopies. And who wants to be incompetent?

If you say so bill. You can either land a parachute well or you can't. The size is irrelevant, except for the fact that smaller parachutes are harder/take more skill to land well.

In reply to:
Yep. And for a REALLY skilled instructor, he doesn't even need to hook up the laterals before exiting. It's much more comfortable for the student, and his expertise will prevent the student from dropping out and/or starting a really bad sidespin.

WTFLaughDid you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Not attaching any one of the customer attachments is gross neglegence, and has nothing to do with how one exits the aircraft with all 4 attachments fastened.

In reply to:
Exactly. And many tandem masters need to do an intentional cutaway before they get their rating. Indeed, the really expert tandem masters will do an intentional cutaway on every tandem jump, thus giving the student two jumps for the price of one AND demonstrating rock-solid confidence in their gear.

You are really streching your argument now bill, FYI my wife has never had a cutaway and has hundreds of tandems. she had a manufacturers rating and a USPA rating and she did not have to have a cutaway.

How about we be really safe and not jump out of the airplane in the first place!

In reply to:
And again, if you are a coward, by all means, don't cut away - give the student less than their money's worth. Perhaps you could give the brave TM's $35 a tandem and the cowardly TM's $25 a tandem. That way you are paying for skill and not lack thereof.

For fucks sake, you are being rediculous now.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 13, 2009, 8:23 AM
Post #14 of 138 (8455 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
Exactly. And many tandem masters need to do an intentional cutaway before they get their rating. ...
You are really streching your argument now bill, FYI my wife has never had a cutaway and has hundreds of tandems. she had a manufacturers rating and a USPA rating and she did not have to have a cutaway.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Strong Enterprises insists that all new Tandem Instructors experience at least one cutaway and reserve ride before jumping Dual Hawk Tandem. This screening technique ensures that they can keep their cool - under a scary malfunction - before jumping with the general public.

If aspiring Strong TIs have never suffered a malfunction, then they need to do an intentional cutaway the first day of their TI course.

RWS/UPT/the Vector and Sigma factory is not that strict.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner
Vector Tandem Master
Racer Tandem Master

P.S.I agree that Bill's post got silly.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 13, 2009, 8:30 AM
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Re: [apogee77] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Good tandem instructors can do consistently stable exits out of any type of airplane.

Even off of tailgates, they should be able to do consistently stable exits.
Early on (1987) I taught myself to do consistently stable exits from the Pink Skyvan. I learned two stable exits. The first was a simple dive, which flattened out quickly, similar to a diving exit from a Cessna.
My second favorite Skyvan exit was to tell the student to pick up their feet - a couple of metres from the edge - then I turned to face the pilot and hopped off, head-high and was immediately stable.

Since I have not done a tandem - from a tailgate in the last fifteen years - I never understood the current fashion of doing gainers from tailagtes.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


feuergnom  (D License)

Aug 13, 2009, 8:38 AM
Post #16 of 138 (8432 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My second favorite Skyvan exit was to tell the student to pick up their feet - a couple of metres from the edge - then I turned to face the pilot and hopped off, head-high and was immediately stable.

i'll give this one a shot next time Smile - if my passengers are not in the 1.8 meters/85kilos+ class again Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 13, 2009, 10:12 AM
Post #17 of 138 (8404 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

>Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

No. That post was full of hyperbole - intentional gross exaggerations to demonstrate something. The fact that you found the comparisons absurd is sort of the point.

I have five unintentional cutaways and ten intentional ones. They are pretty safe to do. That does NOT mean that they are a good idea for anyone to do. If I said "sure, chop your main! The people who cut away from their mains all the time tend to be the more solid and experienced skydivers, and the ones that only ever do normal deployments tend to be the ones that are not comfortable with what they are doing" - that would be a foolish thing to say. Even if I am comfortable with them.

Good judgment comes from long experience. The TM's who have the good judgment to not do back/frontloops on given gear/with given students tend to be the ones who are the better TM's, the ones who have the experience to know when to do what. All too often, the TM's you see doing backloops on every load are the ones who are feeding their own egos. "Backloops are fun, so I'm going to do them no matter what the student wants! She'll thank me later, I'm sure."


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 15, 2009, 1:24 AM
Post #18 of 138 (8316 views)
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Re: [billvon] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have five unintentional cutaways and ten intentional ones. They are pretty safe to do. That does NOT mean that they are a good idea for anyone to do.

If there was with tertiary parachute in your intentionals, there is no reason why they should not be as safe for any experienced skydiver with the correct training to conduct.

If not, well the implications of having done so would give reason to question your judgment.

A fun Gainer or similar exit with a tandem is not akin to intentially cuttng away your main by any strech of the imagination, and I fail to see your point?

In reply to:
Good judgment comes from long experience. The TM's who have the good judgment to not do back/frontloops on given gear/with given students tend to be the ones who are the better TM's, the ones who have the experience to know when to do what. All too often, the TM's you see doing backloops on every load are the ones who are feeding their own egos. "Backloops are fun, so I'm going to do them no matter what the student wants! She'll thank me later, I'm sure."

You represented both ends of the spectrum without including the lions share, there is pleny of colour between ultra violet and infra red, as there are tandem masters that like to have fun on occasion and make their customers' experience 'custom built' to thier level of ability and coherence. A vanilla skydive for idiots and a nice gainer for the onto it relaxed ones.

Trying to give the impression these acts are conducted on every skydive is not a good argument! If they are, then maybe you're right but done with good judgment you are not.

I do agree however good judgement is gained through experience, I have 2000 or so tandems now and feel much more competant than I was at 1000 tandems. I will do a gainer or similar probably less than 10 percent of the time!


(This post was edited by rhys on Aug 15, 2009, 1:26 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 15, 2009, 7:43 AM
Post #19 of 138 (8292 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I try to keep unstable exits down to less than five percent of the time eg. when a student surprises me by sticking a leg out at a weird angle.

Otherwise, I only do intentionally unstable exits when training new tandem instructors.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Aug 15, 2009, 8:49 AM
Post #20 of 138 (8284 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A fun Gainer or similar exit with a tandem is not akin to intentially cuttng away your main by any strech of the imagination, and I fail to see your point?

Would you recommend that a first jump AFF student pull a 90 front to final? No, of course not - nobody with two functioning brain cells to rub together would.

We don't, because it's more dangerous to the student, and they don't understand yet that it *IS* more dangerous to do that. The same reason holds for backflipping a tandem exit just for fun - the student has NO basis of experience to judge if it's a good idea or not.


(This post was edited by mnealtx on Aug 15, 2009, 9:00 AM)


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 15, 2009, 10:31 PM
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Re: [mnealtx] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would you recommend that a first jump AFF student pull a 90 front to final? No, of course not - nobody with two functioning brain cells to rub together would.

We don't, because it's more dangerous to the student, and they don't understand yet that it *IS* more dangerous to do that. The same reason holds for backflipping a tandem exit just for fun - the student has NO basis of experience to judge if it's a good idea or not.

i dunno if you or bill hold the 'Crap Analogy' title.

You are now trying to say that doing a gainer with a coherent, relaxed tandem customer poses the same peril as telling a student to do a 90 on landing.

[sarcasm]I take it you are talking from experience?[/sarcasm]

Laugh


rhys  (D 95)

Aug 15, 2009, 10:36 PM
Post #22 of 138 (8245 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
I try to keep unstable exits down to less than five percent of the time eg. when a student surprises me by sticking a leg out at a weird angle.

Otherwise, I only do intentionally unstable exits when training new tandem instructors.

Define unsatble?

Gainers can allow you to have the drogue out(stable) in less time than a poised exit, if you so wish to do so.


diablopilot  (D License)

Aug 15, 2009, 11:39 PM
Post #23 of 138 (8238 views)
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Re: [rhys] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

No they don't and if you believe so, you're not doing it right. I've got 6000+ tandems and far more than a "few" intentionally unstable exits, that say I'm right. You fail to grasp the concept that it's not your skydive and the student is incapable of making an informed decision about an unstable exit.


unclekenny01  (D License)

Aug 15, 2009, 11:51 PM
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Re: [Vercha] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Depends on the aircraft . Tailgate, ok . Any side door air plane the droug all the pinsare in the relative wind . If there is any closing loop or bridle exposed and worst case of thing to happen , a closing loop brakes or bridle is out . And your chute comes out . It's going to be bad . As far as stablity the TI just needs to fly there body and get control of the wind .Remember...every student is going to kill you and it your job to figure out how . And you wil be on your toes thinking safty on every skydive.
In reply to:


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 16, 2009, 7:18 AM
Post #25 of 138 (8216 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Back flip exit on tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

" ... and the student is incapable of making an informed decision about an unstable exit."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

When they ask for an unstable exit, I reply: "Sometimes I flip and sometimes I don't. Keep your eyes open and count how many times we flip. Tee! Hee!"
Most students cannot see the difference between a stable or unstable exit.
Sometimes I get belly-to-wind quickly and toss the drogue, then throw in a fast turn while we are still "on the hill." Most students feel that as a spin/loop/roll.

For the one percent of students who can perceive the difference between stable and unstable - and complain afterwards - I direct their complaint to manifest, because I know that management will back me in avoiding unstable exits.


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