Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it?

 

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davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 24, 2009, 8:04 AM
Post #51 of 102 (1184 views)
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Re: [captain1976] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if you want soft landings you should be jumping a 230 sq ft canopy of just about any manufacturer.

No, he shouldn't. If you look at his profile you'll see that he has 7 jumps. Being a bigger fella, that would put him at a 1 to 1 WL, and with 7 jumps, that is far too low. He should be jumping something closer to a 280.

Quote:
Back in the 80's, the squares I jumped included the para cloud's and the cruise air/lite's. These were F111 fabrics and I could shut them down to a tip toe landing every time.

Back in the 80's those canopies were new, and when they were new it wasn't hard to land them softly. F-11 student canopies are anything but new.

For starters, I don't think anyone is making all F-111 student canopies these days, or for the last 5 years or so. The end result is that even the newest F-111 student canopy has a few hard years on it already.

The other problem with F-111 student canopies is that there is nobody keeping track of their performance.

If you jump a Cruise Lite as your personal canopy, you see the performance from day to day, and when it starts to fall off, you know it because you're the same guy flying the canopy the same way, but the end result is different.

Student canopies are jumped by different students every day. Each jumper will get a different result from the canopy, so watching them land doesn't really reveal the condition of the canopy. Addtionally, the students have no frame of refernce to make that type of judgement nor is their performance going to be consistant enough even if they do end up making 2 or 3 jumps on the same canopy.

The end result is some really beat student canopies still in use. With a 170 lb guy, and 8 to 10 mph wind, a good PLF makes it seem like everything is OK. Switch that to a 200 or 210 lb guy, and take the wind away, suddenly the margin for error has become razor thin, and when students are involved, that type of margin is never good.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 24, 2009, 9:21 AM
Post #52 of 102 (1171 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to land like a feather.
At 190lbs can this be done?


Tokter  (Student)

Jul 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
Post #53 of 102 (1163 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm 195lbs and 6'4", I jump a Manata 288 Student canopy and my langs are really soft lately. So it can be done, if I can do it Smile


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 24, 2009, 1:01 PM
Post #54 of 102 (1142 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just want to land like a feather.
At 190lbs can this be done?
Yes but what you should take away from the discussion above is that the type of canopy, the material it's made from, how frequently you jump that particular canopy and its age will affect your ability to land softly. This is even if you get the technique right.

It's important (I learned this the hard way) to know your gear. Find out what it is before you jump and make sure you practice flaring up high to get a feel for it before your health depends on it (when you land).

(reminder: I'm a noob)


Sangi

Jul 25, 2009, 5:13 AM
Post #55 of 102 (1101 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just want to land like a feather.
At 190lbs can this be done?

There are guys much heavier than that who fly 100sqft+ high performance canopies and land them no problem.. Off course, the skill difference is immense, so it's an odd comparison.

But really, how hard can it be to nicely land a huge student canopy? Get some 270-300 student canopy, turn it into the wind and flare at the right time... It's all about your flare actually, time it right and you will land good.


trigger  (D 101390)

Jul 25, 2009, 6:45 AM
Post #56 of 102 (1093 views)
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[Sangi] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

 All in good time, everyone's different... In addition to some very good pointers contained within 'this thread' stay calm and remember not to hurt yourself.

I've been jumping the same canopy for approx 800 jumps and i still and still feel there's more to be had... i.e mastered, it takes timeWink


d123  (B 6134)

Jul 25, 2009, 1:17 PM
Post #57 of 102 (1069 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey man,

You've broke your ankle. That's not that bad. You'll probably going to have "a" pain every day in your life that will not let you forget to be focus in your choices. The pain is not the type of pain that you can't ignore (you can detach from it and enjoy a wide range of activities from snowboard to longboard to skate to skydiving and so on).
Learning to land will come from more landings. Learning to respect the unknown and progress to it instead of jumping right into it comes from getting hurt. The good part is that you got hurt earlier and now you got the lesson. This lesson will stay with you in every other sport you'll try, it will make you safe and on the long run you'll find more things to enjoy just because you'll spend more time in that sport ! And please do try more riding sports. Longboarding fixed a lot of my ankle range problems while I was discovering a lot of fun. In 3 years without forcing myself I've naturally progressed to downhill speed-riding and I'm all happy in those moments! I've seen friends of mine, that didn't learned the "get hurt" lesson, getting hurt real bad because they've jump into the unknown while I was progressing to that unknown and many others after it just because of my lucky pain. This pain its a keeper!

A ridiculous funny way to think about it: Succeeding in something is just like being pregnant. Everybody congratulate you but nobody knows how many times you got fucked!


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 25, 2009, 1:59 PM
Post #58 of 102 (1062 views)
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Re: [d123] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I broke my tib fib and no my ankle thank god!
I hear ankle take ages to heal and some times never do!
Solid bones do a much better job getting back to normal.
And well in this time i've had time to think about stuff.
NO WAY IN HELL WILL I EVER SWOOP! I have a freaking bike for that! Just get me down from 5k ft to 0ft in the sftest safest manner possible!
And I have to figure this out ASAP if I am ever to jump again. If this means only jumping in low wind conditions so be it! I'll BBQ at the DZ till the weather catches up to me.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Jul 25, 2009, 8:07 PM
Post #59 of 102 (1047 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

good luck on all that :-)

(bike = way more dangerous to swooping)

Dave


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2009, 5:41 AM
Post #60 of 102 (1030 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know Dave.
I mean ok you can be a total squid and high side your way into the local fivebucks.
But man there is just way more controll on a bike.
You have more options.
I never felt as if I had that many options underthe silk. It was all risk mitigation.
But I'm in deep need of some classes to lean how to properly fly this thing.
Because I'll be honest with you Dave....I love the free fall! I have never in my life felt so at ease with the universe than I did when I was free falling. But anything after 5kft....that was just work!


marks  (D 22296)

Jul 26, 2009, 6:36 AM
Post #61 of 102 (1026 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
NO WAY IN HELL WILL I EVER SWOOP!

I used to say the same thing. all the way up until I had about 1000 jumps.


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Jul 26, 2009, 6:41 AM
Post #62 of 102 (1023 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah I used to say that until I had my first soft slightly swoopy landing (all of 50 ft)

Its not you on the bike its the others in the cages man.

in the air once you get on something that really flies you will enjoy flying it I promise. Just dont rush. Get yourself I 250cc tp start with oops I mean...

you get the drift.

Dave


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2009, 10:56 AM
Post #63 of 102 (1010 views)
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Re: [dharma1976] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I'll start with getting better.
Then I'll hit a few classes to lean what the hell I'm doing and then walk back into it.
But I don't know guys.....you need ride with me in the mountains of NJ. We have great roads and amazing pizza! AND! if you are smart you will always go home!


d123  (B 6134)

Jul 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
Post #64 of 102 (1000 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ignore my last post. Good luck with your quest!


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 26, 2009, 2:45 PM
Post #65 of 102 (986 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

To me a hop-n-pop and swooping outside of normal DZ traffic is less of a risk then riding a bike. Then again, I ride every single day (its my primary means of transportation) and I ride every day at work, all day. So I'm actually in the saddle on a motorcycle around 70hrs a week or more, between going places and working.

In both instances you can mitigate a lot of risk, but there are always variables well outside of your control.

I would highly recommend not turning your back to swooping. You don't have to become a swooper, but everything that goes towards being able to swoop will make you a better canopy pilot. You can learn all of those skills and be a better jumper with out ever pulling a front riser to turn onto final.

Find a local/regional canopy coach/mentor and get learning (once you're better). You'll thank yourself in the long run! Good luck!


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 26, 2009, 3:20 PM
Post #66 of 102 (980 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks guys, yeah working on getting better and looking forward to landing like a feather!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 26, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #67 of 102 (949 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would highly recommend not turning your back to swooping. You don't have to become a swooper, but everything that goes towards being able to swoop will make you a better canopy pilot. You can learn all of those skills and be a better jumper with out ever pulling a front riser to turn onto final.
Now that's some kick ass advice, thanks AggieDave!

I'm learning to swoop, just doing double fronts (have been for a while) for now & I'll slowly work my way up to 90s & then maybe something more when I'm ready. There's so much to enjoy about flying a canopy - clear & pull from full altitude on a sunset load - fucking beautiful. Wink

I ride also, mostly in the Catskills. What you're talking about is like never going to the track because you don't think there's any point in learning those skills for the street. Dragging a knee or trail braking are, for the most part, not safe on the street but when you need them (running wide & need to lean a bit more or coming into a corner a bit hot & finding sand or a 2x4 respectively) those skills come in quite handy and can save your ass.

You're missing out (at least it seems to me) on half your skydive (more in terms of time) and the part that is most likely to get you hurt as you've unfortunately discovered. It's in your best interests to find something about it you enjoy or at least to become proficient (and not hate it). There are lots of things to love about canopy flight, I could list a few but I'm sure it would bore people. Wink


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 27, 2009, 5:51 AM
Post #68 of 102 (924 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now that's some kick ass advice, thanks AggieDave!

I'm learning to swoop, just doing double fronts (have been for a while) for now & I'll slowly work my way up to 90s & then maybe something more when I'm ready. There's so much to enjoy about flying a canopy - clear & pull from full altitude on a sunset load - fucking beautiful. Wink
When it comes to swooping for me, I've been really conservative in comparision to many skydivers I know. I did my first double-fronts swoop at jump #299, and I haven't yet moved on to 90's, but I'm close to beginning to do that, lowest being a partial (30 degree or so ) turn onto final using the front riser to test the noticeable increase in altitude loss, well above complete recovery. One big reason of this relative conservativism is that I jump big ways, which isn't conductive to doing swooping. (In the last 12 months, 150 out of my last ~220-230 jumps were all at big way events). I still jump 150's and 170's, usually a Sabre.

Landing has always been fun but can be the most intense/scary part of the skydive, since I agree it's also where you get hurt...

At the wingloadings and pace I do, I think I'm doing a relatively safe approach to swooping, though I don't plan to do more than swoop recreationally -- maybe I'll stick to 90 degrees, who knows, I'll progress on that when I damn feel like it (and ready currency/skills wise), no hurry...


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 27, 2009, 5:56 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 27, 2009, 6:23 AM
Post #69 of 102 (914 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

A 265 Falcon. No clue as to the number of jumps on her.
But I think she may be a little old.

Man why can't I have landings as soft as the girl in the video. I just want to walk away. NO ass skidding, no hard lanings, I just want to walk.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jul 27, 2009, 7:43 AM
Post #70 of 102 (902 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Absolutely agree mdrejhon, my biggest fear (beyond breaking myself, canopy collisions, etc.) with HP approaches is that I'm moving too quickly. I worry that my comfort comes from a lack of experience and/or understanding. I have friends who swoop who have thousands of jumps who say I'm doing very well & should consider putting a slight carve into my turn onto final. The front riser turn should be less than 90 and should slowly be built up over a long time. I'm cool with that, I'm not in a hurry. This was suggested to me, I didn't ask (other than to chat about how it works because I was curious). Honestly, I often don't do the front riser approach because it doesn't feel right, or there are people nearby, etc. My main goal when using double fronts is not a long "swoop" I'm actually using them and landing on target.

Sorry, this is a little off topic.

shah, seriously, you're what's stopping yourself from having nice landings. I doubt I'd be good at it if I were tense & worried all the time.

Coffee Frog (<- joke, please ignore) recommends going to the DZ & watching a bunch of landings, student & experienced people. Talk to your instructors & other skydivers and try to stop hating your canopy so much. Wink


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Jul 27, 2009, 8:28 AM
Post #71 of 102 (890 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A 265 Falcon. No clue as to the number of jumps on her.
Falcon is an F111, which usually requires an aggressive and quick one-stage flare, disregard the advice about doing a 2-stage flare.

Although F111 isn't that bad lightly loaded, I did a Manta 288 (F111) at 0.55:1 wingload... Among other people in this thread, I do highly recommend you switch to ZP if you decide to jump again. I certainly loved that Sabre 230 (ZP) -- my first ZP canopy jump -- after having jumping a Manta 288 for my student progression. It surprised me that I was able to pop upwards 2 or 3 feet when I did a relatively slow flare, down to a tiptoe little-thump landing that was gentle.

I'd daresay a new or medium-wear 230 ZP is actually much safer than a well-worn 265 F11, but it's also everything else, the training techniques, the student, etc. But even better, a 260 ZP, which would lightly loaded for you and probably very easy to land as long as it was in good shape, including the lines. Depending on what you're used to (you're familiar with horizontal speed already, as a motorcyclist) you may find it literally 10 times easier to land -- the difference is dramatic for some people.

Your next jump will need to have an emphasis on a lot more test flares at altitude. Instructor may specify things like flare slow, flare fast, flare halfway, pause, flare all the way, anything your instructor tells you to do. Maybe ask your instructor and radio guy you want to pull a little higher to focus on canopy flight and practice, even if you repeat an AFF level. Emphasize you got hurt, and you desire the extra altitude to do the canopy practice, even if it as non-advancing AFF jump...

Disclaimer: I am no instructor. Get a good instructor to help me you get back into the sky. But in all likelihood, I'm possibly trying to help reduce the chances of you breaking a bone next time Wink


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Jul 27, 2009, 8:31 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 27, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #72 of 102 (883 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

mdrejhon
I'm also 190lbs with out my rig.
Do you think I still qualify as lightly loaded?
And yes...the thing needed aggressive flares to do anything.
Ok thank you so much for your help. I'll relay this info back to the DZ. I can't wait till i jump next spring.
Shah


Sangi

Jul 27, 2009, 10:02 AM
Post #73 of 102 (873 views)
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Re: [shah269] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought you permanently quit skydiving? Tongue


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 27, 2009, 11:00 AM
Post #74 of 102 (859 views)
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Re: [Sangi] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought you permanently quit skydiving? Tongue
No...I miss it like you have no idea!
I wish I could go and take calsses to day but...bones be broken and kenee be off.
I just want to land as soft as can be. I want to be the last guy on the ground.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Jul 27, 2009, 11:10 AM
Post #75 of 102 (856 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Yeah....soft landings? How do you do it? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Canopy and its Pilot from Brian Germain. Improved my landings quite a bit.

Actually, I did the dumbest thing, downsized first jump after a 7 month lay off (jumped my new to me gear), on my currency jump, landed in the target (that my coach missed Wink )

Try out the 2-stage flare... ask the swoopers, they do it all the time.

Its a little tricky, but if you follow the instructions in the book to learn your sweet spot (the point in the flare where you level your flight) and level out before touching out to burn off some of that speed, makes for much nicer landings.

Two stage flare probably isnt the best thing to be advising on an F111 student canpopy...!

I know from the ones I jumped they had to be flared in one positive motion or else they 'lost' their flare power and you struck terra firma quite hard!


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