Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback)

 


starkmtn  (D 22770)

Jan 25, 2009, 1:16 PM
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U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) Can't Post

Chris Gay is not yet on DZ.com so I am posting this on his behalf. Please post feedback (I'll collect and forward). Thanks!

***begin forwarded message*

Hello all,


During the past few years there has been tremendous
growth in the 2-way event on an international level;
however, at the US Nationals we are seeing a decline
in all CF events including the 2-way. This is a
problem that, if not corrected, will very likely lead
to the end of CF in the future, and certainly no
chance for anything larger than a 100-person
formation.


I would like to get some feedback on a possible new
division (working title: “Pro-Am”) that I am going to
lobby USPA to create. If we have enough response from
all you experienced dogs, then this new division may
be a part of this or next years US Nationals.


USPA has been reluctant to create a new division until
our numbers justify doing so. However, I believe our
numbers will not grow until/unless we have this extra
division. There would still be an Open class. The
goal of the Pro-Am division would be to have Open
class jumpers bring newer jumpers to the U.S.
Nationals to compete in 2-way CF.


Here are my ideas for the "Pro-Am" division, and I am
certainly open to any suggestions or changes to make
it better for all of us:


CF 2-Way Pro-Am


Team Composition:
Maximum 4 jumpers - Minimum 3 jumpers.
(2 jumpers turning points, 1 video person, 1
alternate)


Eligibility:
During each jump, at least 1 of the jumpers turning
points must be an amateur (as defined below). The
video person and the alternate may be either from the
Open class or may be amateurs.


Definition of amateur: (this is the tricky part)
An “amateur” shall be defined as a jumper who has
never medaled at the U.S. Nationals in CF or has not
been on a CF World Record.



As you review this proposal, please keep in mind that
we are trying to do this to INCREASE our numbers of
new jumpers.


Now I have two questions for the group:


1) Do you like this idea for a new division, or do you
have any other ideas for another division that would
bring more CF jumpers to competition?


2) If this division were created, how many Open or
non-amateur CF people from this group would bring an
amateur with them to compete this year?


Best Regards,
Chris J. Gay


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jan 26, 2009, 11:11 AM
Post #2 of 17 (3289 views)
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Re: [starkmtn] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think the reason for people not competing at the nationals in 2-way is because they can't medal.
the barriers to competition are:

1) Cost- at least a couple grand to enter, stay in a hotel, go to restaurants, etc., for ALL the days CF is competing. The cost of a meet is more than the cost of a cruise, and you get catered to on a cruise!

2) Time off work- you have to take all the time off that CF is competing because on any day, two way can be called on to compete. Weather holds can put the competition way out in the calendar.

3) Number of jumps per day- we have in the past had to do 17 jumps in two days in competition. So an "amateur" could possibly be asked to make as many as eight jumps plus rejumps in one day. Not at all enticing.

4) Nationals are no fun- you get up at at least an hour before sunrise, spend all day at the zone unable to make any jumps, until they need you to make a crapload of jumps right now. CF in notoriously spotted off the dropzone or very far out. The whole time more often than not, you're being told you are holding up RW loads or tandem loads.

5) No fame- you can win all you want, nobody even puts your picture in the magazine. Back in the day, EVERY competitor was in the "Nationals Special" issue of Parachutist. It was a lot of fun to see all the teams and who had gone from one team to another.

Maybe we could look at regional 2-way meets that earn points toward a National CRW Title. Find some format that keeps it simple, local, and fun.

Just my humble opinions, and I got lots of 'em
Craig


(This post was edited by topdocker on Jan 26, 2009, 11:11 AM)


kleggo  (D 8292)

Mar 5, 2009, 3:27 PM
Post #3 of 17 (3071 views)
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Re: [topdocker] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think the reason for people not competing at the nationals in 2-way is because they can't medal.
the barriers to competition are:

1) Cost- at least a couple grand to enter, stay in a hotel, go to restaurants, etc., for ALL the days CF is competing. The cost of a meet is more than the cost of a cruise, and you get catered to on a cruise!

2) Time off work- you have to take all the time off that CF is competing because on any day, two way can be called on to compete. Weather holds can put the competition way out in the calendar.

3) Number of jumps per day- we have in the past had to do 17 jumps in two days in competition. So an "amateur" could possibly be asked to make as many as eight jumps plus rejumps in one day. Not at all enticing.

4) Nationals are no fun- you get up at at least an hour before sunrise, spend all day at the zone unable to make any jumps, until they need you to make a crapload of jumps right now. CF in notoriously spotted off the dropzone or very far out. The whole time more often than not, you're being told you are holding up RW loads or tandem loads.

5) No fame- you can win all you want, nobody even puts your picture in the magazine. Back in the day, EVERY competitor was in the "Nationals Special" issue of Parachutist. It was a lot of fun to see all the teams and who had gone from one team to another.

Maybe we could look at regional 2-way meets that earn points toward a National CRW Title. Find some format that keeps it simple, local, and fun.

Just my humble opinions, and I got lots of 'em
Craig

humble my a$$ Wink

keep those opinions coming my friend.

Craig F.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 6, 2009, 2:32 PM
Post #4 of 17 (3013 views)
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Re: [kleggo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

Just keep pulling my string and I'll keep spouting opinions!

top


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 15, 2009, 1:16 PM
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Re: [starkmtn] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I use to do CReW, back in the day, and it was a lot of fun. I only do no contact now because of a highly loaded eliptical with razor sharp lines. I can't afford to have an extra canopy/rig just for CReW.

My passion is in 4 way. I put together a team to compete in an NSL league in Missouri that was suppose to kick off in '99 or 2000. the guy who was going to head that league dropped the ball.

During some subsequent conversations I was having with Kurt Gabel, I decided to start my own league.

In 2001 the NPSL was born. We started with 4 or 5 teams and have grown to a steady 9 or 10 teams consistantly and are still going. We use our registration money to bring in world class coaches for most of the meets to provide dive engineering, dirt dive, creeping and exits. The next day each team sits with the coach to debrief the meet video.

Many of the people on those teams have gone on to compete at the nationals and to become big way world record holders. The 4 way skills in our area have improved dramatically. This of course causes an imrovement in all formation skydiving.

I strongly believe that if you want to grow CReW, you need to do it at the grass roots level which will then feed the national level. Not the other way around.

Chris should become the Kurt Gabel of CReW and start the National Canopy Formation League, the NCFL.

Get one or two people from each area with the passion for CF to be league directors. It won't be long before CReW is more popular than ever.

Just MHO.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Mar 15, 2009, 1:17 PM)


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Jul 10, 2009, 11:20 PM
Post #6 of 17 (2636 views)
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Re: [starkmtn] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the last guy is more correct. I have been trying to get people interested in CRW for awhile. Nobody in the area to really talk to about how to start. Some of the older dogs are lying around and nobody stepping up, you guys are losing the CRW sport big! Soon when you all quit, it's going to fade away. You really need to cross this great country and teach! I only know of 4 people doing it and they only do demo's, no teaching! Can't find any info. on how to get started on net either, just a little intro but no how to chose a canopy, sizes, weights, how to perform a downplane(which I really want to do!). you get people doing it and the sport will grow and get noticed more also.
Hope to see your replyMad


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jul 12, 2009, 7:47 PM
Post #7 of 17 (2597 views)
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't have a location in your profile. Post where you are and you might find some folks!


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 12, 2009, 8:03 PM
Post #8 of 17 (2596 views)
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I did a 2 way camp earlier this year with Chris Gay and Jim Rasmussen... Had a great time and learned a ton. I was truly amazed at Chris’s ability to teach the “technology” of 2X Crew. I left the camp more interested in doing another 2 way CRW jump than any sort of larger formation. However, as stated above, CRW requires additional gear and training. Back in the day, we all jumped F-111's and every skydive culminated in a CRW portion of the jump. Most of the experienced jumpers had some CRW background and we learned from them.

Today’s experienced jumpers use highly wing loaded elliptical canopies with razor lines and the mentality is “stay away”! At Baldwin, some of us old timers started doing CRW again by putting together some old F-111 rigs and recruiting newer jumpers to give it a try. Even though we’ve grown a small base of CRW jumpers, it’s hard to organize and recruit.

However, if you want to grow CRW, follow Sandy’s advice above. I learned from Chris this summer that 2 way CRW is very fluid and extremely challenging. Develop a league and teach the discipline. The NPSL model may work but the key is to start from the grass roots and build from there.

Scooby... you may have to travel to learn and then bring that back to your DZ. Or, call Jim or Chris and convince them to come to you. Jim came to Baldwin this spring and brought several newer PD Storms. We had a great time and learned alot.

Chris... If you want to grow CRW, take your show on the road. Show others what you showed us this spring and I garantee you'll find takers. Take it from a very old CReW Pup... 2 way CRW is a blast!!


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Jul 13, 2009, 8:10 PM
Post #9 of 17 (2541 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm trying to locate people who can teach a little, as far as travel, I live in Aurora, IL., So IF anybody in the area that is willing to teach and knows how to teach, Im willing to learn and travel within 100 miles of my area. Any takers??
Thanks


iowa  (D 16855)

Jul 14, 2009, 5:54 AM
Post #10 of 17 (2529 views)
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to be on that demo team and can teach a little. Unfortunatly I don't have much in the way of crw canopies.

Jim Rasmussen does, is an awesome teacher and lives and jumps within 100 miles of you.

Send me a pm and I'll hook you up with some reading material and contact info.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 14, 2009, 10:26 PM
Post #11 of 17 (2482 views)
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm trying to locate people who can teach a little, as far as travel, I live in Aurora, IL., So IF anybody in the area that is willing to teach and knows how to teach, Im willing to learn and travel within 100 miles of my area. Any takers??
Thanks

Contact Jim or April here...
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

They do a lot of training at the Wisconsin CRW Boogie... See you there.


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Jul 15, 2009, 10:47 AM
Post #12 of 17 (2453 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

I called Sky Knights already,talked to Derrick/guy in charge. he said CRW Boogie not for beginners/teaching, gave me Jim e-mail, Still waiting for him to email back, been 4 days!
Thanks for trying


Madison  (D 25271)

Jul 15, 2009, 10:57 AM
Post #13 of 17 (2450 views)
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Re: [ScoobieDoo] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

We've been at our home DZ jumping/camping, not on a computer.

My apologies, I will give you his phone number via PM, and just be patient and keep trying...he gets really shitty phone reception up in the air.

Although he is getting better at texting, with his toes!,while piloting,... his phone is usually sittin in his gear bag.

No worries, it's all good.
Blue Skies,
April


(This post was edited by Madison on Jul 15, 2009, 11:47 AM)


edge01  (D 26004)

Jul 15, 2009, 12:05 PM
Post #14 of 17 (2435 views)
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Re: [Madison] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Although he is getting better at texting, with his toes!,while piloting,... his phone is usually sittin in his gear bag.
I bet he could train his hair to do the texting.:-)
See ya in August.
Eric


ScoobieDoo  (D 24795)

Jul 15, 2009, 4:28 PM
Post #15 of 17 (2418 views)
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Re: [Madison] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

tks so much for the pm, I'm going to try him later tonight. Heard nothing but GREAT things about him and his teachings. Finally I may get to see what it's all about.
thanksCool
UPDATE
Just talked with Jim, lots of info. just over the phone, can't wait to meet and jump with! Thanks all for help to getting me in touch with him!Wink


(This post was edited by ScoobieDoo on Jul 15, 2009, 8:11 PM)


morris

Aug 17, 2009, 11:32 AM
Post #16 of 17 (2272 views)
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Re: [starkmtn] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

How about changing the rules for the 2-way event?
1.Raise the exit altitude and give the competitors a full minute for the first point instead of 30 seconds.
Doing so a removable deploymentsystem as used for CanopyPiloting could do the job of removing the bridle and PC.
2.Have two minutes of working time instead of 90 seconds.
Doing so (in combination with 1.) could raise the average score of beginner teams quite a lot and therefore be motivating to compete?!


StefB

Aug 18, 2009, 2:16 AM
Post #17 of 17 (2240 views)
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Re: [morris] U.S. Nationals - Potential Pro-Am Division (need feedback) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about changing the rules for the 2-way event?

1.Raise the exit altitude and give the competitors a full minute for the first point instead of 30 seconds.
Doing so a removable deploymentsystem as used for CanopyPiloting could do the job of removing the bridle and PC.

2.Have two minutes of working time instead of 90 seconds.
Doing so (in combination with 1.) could raise the average score of beginner teams quite a lot and therefore be motivating to compete?!

1. I have never seen such deployment systems in CF competitions. Are these used actually or is this coming gear?

On the last WM in Teuge there was some discussion about shortening the 30s exit time because it costs too much time in the judging process esp. when the exit is reviewed several times. The judging and the production of "almost live" results would be more difficult with 60s exit time.

2. The work time in 2-way CF is 60s (exit time + work time = 90s). I could think of a longer work time for intermediate teams ("A class", "rookie class"). BUT at many nationals there are almost not enough teams for the open class and an additional class is difficult.

Some infos about myself: I did my first competition as "performer" in 2-way CF at the german nationals two weeks ago (av. 3,9, third place). We had four CF-teams and two of them were such pro-am teams. That was such great fun and a great competition! Before that i was CF video only. Now i'm hooked ;-)



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