Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Skydiving is risky but safe

 

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Poll: Skydiving is risky but safe
Yes 143 / 38%
No, it is not risky 19 / 5%
No, it is not safe 130 / 35%
No, if it is risky it is not safe 80 / 22%
372 total votes
 
Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 15, 2009, 12:56 PM
Post #101 of 207 (1838 views)
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Re: [jayrech] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>what part or getting into your vehicle and driving down the street with all
>the "drunk" drivers out there do you deem safe?

It's not 100% safe. It's just safer than skydiving.


drewcarp

Jun 15, 2009, 1:26 PM
Post #102 of 207 (1827 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

I have read that there were no AFF fatalities in the first 20 years of the programs existence. Is this true and about how many jumps was that?

Would seem like most AFF jumps are skydiving as close to as safe as possible. Forgiving canopy's, multiple gear checks by experienced instructors, higher pulls, more separation, good weather conditions...etc. The only danger factor being the inexperience of the student which is mitigated quite well according to the record. How many annual fatalites would there be if all jumps were like that? (minus the inexperience of the student of course)

If that is true it would seem as if most of the danger is self imposed (HP canopys, questionable conditions, big ways, etc... long list lol) and skydiving could be done with a much much better record than it has now. If all jumps were as careful and thought out as an AFF jump we might not be having this conversation. That will never happen and I'm not saying it should but you can skydive and be safer by magnitudes if you want it to be....Right? I'm asking not implying cuz I have 5 jumps. Thanks


tbrown  (D 6533)

Jun 22, 2009, 5:35 PM
Post #103 of 207 (1765 views)
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Re: [rigging65] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

You're committing suicide every time you get out of an airplane until you decide to alter the inevitable course...by throwing out a limp piece of cloth that you hope will catch air and pull out a little stainless steel pin that you can bend with your fingers. If nothing goes wrong there, then all you need if for a bunch of slack lines to release in the proper order from a bag that is being drug away from you without any real sort of stabilization, then dumps a mass of material (without shape) into a 120 mph slipstream. You're then relying on the fact that air should go into the mass of material and sort it out...taking you from 120 mph (or faster ) to near 0 mph in somewhere around 4-5 seconds (try that in your car and see how safe you feel).

If all that doesn't kill you, you've still got to fly this inflated mass of nylon through the air with no source of power to create lift if you need a go-around or something. You fly into some sort of a pattern with a bunch of other people who probably have no true flight training, then attempt to time a last ditch effort to create lift from your mass of nylon just in time to keep you from glancing off the ground while going 25 mph.
You make it sound so scary....the funny part is though that thousands of people do exactly that several times a day on almost any weekend. I guess the bottom line is that we need to be free to make the decision for ourselves and not have some "well meaning" government calling the shots in order to "protect" us from ourselves.

I could probably use similar language and style to describe how you get out of bed, shower, dress and make breakfast every morning.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 22, 2009, 6:56 PM
Post #104 of 207 (1746 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydiving is not safe. You can do everything right, and still die.

_Am

...I really hate it when people say this.

Pretty much the only time this is valid is if someone were to collide with you, but then I would still say you should have seen them coming and anticipated them hitting you by keeping your head on a swivel.

If I die from skydiving, I will be pissed because I could have avoided it. If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jun 22, 2009, 9:46 PM
Post #105 of 207 (1713 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I really hate it when people say this.

You don't have to like it, but - at this point in your skydiving career, if you don't believe it, you're not being honest with yourself.

The obvious examples are collisions, so I don't know why you're intentionally ignoring these. Don't forget there's also a pretty extensive list of people who've died after malfunctions, even when they did everything right.

We teach people a simple set of emergency procedures for two reasons. 1) They're the best we've got. 2) They work most of the time. But, "most of the time" is not "every time". Sometimes they don't work. Sometimes you perform exactly as trained, do the best you can, and it just gets worse.

In reply to:
If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.


I used to know some people who thought this. They are dead.

_Am


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 22, 2009, 10:28 PM
Post #106 of 207 (1699 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...I really hate it when people say this.

You don't have to like it, but - at this point in your skydiving career, if you don't believe it, you're not being honest with yourself.

The obvious examples are collisions, so I don't know why you're intentionally ignoring these. Don't forget there's also a pretty extensive list of people who've died after malfunctions, even when they did everything right.

We teach people a simple set of emergency procedures for two reasons. 1) They're the best we've got. 2) They work most of the time. But, "most of the time" is not "every time". Sometimes they don't work. Sometimes you perform exactly as trained, do the best you can, and it just gets worse.

In reply to:
If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.


I used to know some people who thought this. They are dead.

_Am

Haha, oh this is too good. So wait, from what you have gathered from this statement

"If I die from skydiving, I will be pissed because I could have avoided it. If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die."

You believe I'm ignorant and reckless? Before you took that sentence out of context in the paragraph, you could read that I was taking full responsibility for my actions.

There are no guarantees in life. You could be driving down the street and someone could hit you or your brakes could fail.

1. Look through the fatality list, lets say in in 2007. In 2007, find me a person, in good health, that died after doing everything right...


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 23, 2009, 1:26 AM
Post #107 of 207 (1684 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pretty much the only time this is valid is if someone were to collide with you, but then I would still say you should have seen them coming and anticipated them hitting you by keeping your head on a swivel.

planes crash. weather can be (somewhat unpredictable), and humans make errors.

I think you can control about half the risk with choices you make.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 23, 2009, 1:30 AM
Post #108 of 207 (1685 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Look through the fatality list, lets say in in 2007. In 2007, find me a person, in good health, that died after doing everything right...

why the good health clause? That's another example of items beyond your control. The guy that died in 2007 from a stroke - you can't tell when those are coming. And marathoners die of heart attacks.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 23, 2009, 10:25 AM
Post #109 of 207 (1641 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
1. Look through the fatality list, lets say in in 2007. In 2007, find me a person, in good health, that died after doing everything right...

why the good health clause? That's another example of items beyond your control. The guy that died in 2007 from a stroke - you can't tell when those are coming. And marathoners die of heart attacks.

You are starting to stretch. Because I'm 27; I'm not in the age range where health issues are a concern, plus I eat right and exercise. Also, don't compare apples-to-oranges by comparing a strenuous activity like running 26 miles, to skydiving.

If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jun 23, 2009, 10:39 AM
Post #110 of 207 (1628 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.

Absolutely wrong. There are random factors that you simply cannot adequately control. You're still in the same state of denial that I pointed out to you in post #96.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jun 23, 2009, 10:41 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 23, 2009, 11:00 AM
Post #111 of 207 (1624 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You are starting to stretch. Because I'm 27; I'm not in the age range where health issues are a concern, plus I eat right and exercise. Also, don't compare apples-to-oranges by comparing a strenuous activity like running 26 miles, to skydiving.

If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...

You objected to a general comment on the safety of the sport, so your age isn't relevant. Not everyone is 27, and very soon you won't be either. I think you underestimate the health risks even at your age.

You also glossed over the risk of those two collisions in 2007. 4 people died there. You can't guarantee that you won't get tagged if someone else makes an error. You can't even guarantee you won't. People make errors. Esp on hot sunny days.

On the motorcycle scene, some like to say 'presume every car out there is trying to kill you.' Sounds good, but taken literally, you could never ride in any level of traffic. You're always trying to take the best available option, but that's not the path that guarantees nothing bad will happen. The path only exists in your garage.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 23, 2009, 11:07 AM
Post #112 of 207 (1620 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

>Because I'm 27; I'm not in the age range where health issues are a concern . . .

I knew a healthy fairly young woman who died due to a hard opening. She had an undiagnosed connective tissue disease that made her circulatory system weaker. I think it was 2005 tho.

>If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.

You could have a double mal and die. Your AAD could misfire and you could die. A slink could break at 200 feet and you could die. A dust devil could hit you at 200 feet and you could die. You could die in a plane crash, a collision with another jumper or a collision with a bird.

While skydiving is relatively safe compared to, say, driving drunk, it is by no means safe.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jun 23, 2009, 11:54 AM
Post #113 of 207 (1603 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.

Even with your relative inexperience and young age, you should realize that, in the long run, very few absolute statements turn out to be true. It seems that you are bothered by the possibility that something or someone outside of your control can cause your flawless ass to be killed while skydiving. It's really not a matter of opinion. Anyone who has been around long enough can point out several instances of this.

If you want to tell your Mom that you will never get hurt because you always do everything right, that's fine. But if you truly believe that, then you are a fool.

Kevin Keenan


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 23, 2009, 12:13 PM
Post #114 of 207 (1600 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...
With all that you have minimized some of the risks. Some of them have been minimized to the point of negligibility. But none of them have been eliminated completely, simply because they are inherent risks of skydiving.

But they've been minimized way down. And if you look at trends in fatalities reports, you can minimize more of them.

No matter what, you will die. Chances are, it won't be from skydiving. But the more you actively remember and manage your risks, rather than figuring that you've eliminated them, the better off you are.

Wendy P.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 12:40 PM
Post #115 of 207 (1518 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If I look through 2007, I see that I don't fly a wingsuit, I don't do CRW, I don't swoop, I have an AAD and an RSL, I'm in great health...
With all that you have minimized some of the risks. Some of them have been minimized to the point of negligibility. But none of them have been eliminated completely, simply because they are inherent risks of skydiving.

But they've been minimized way down. And if you look at trends in fatalities reports, you can minimize more of them.

No matter what, you will die. Chances are, it won't be from skydiving. But the more you actively remember and manage your risks, rather than figuring that you've eliminated them, the better off you are.

Wendy P.

I completely agree with you; well put.

Yes, everyone will die and there are no certainties. With skydiving, risks can be minimized to insignificance. Example: if you have a correctly routed chest strap, what are the chances that it will come undone and you will fall out of your harness? The percentage is insignificant.


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jun 26, 2009, 1:51 PM
Post #116 of 207 (1499 views)
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Re: [pkasdorf] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydiving is not safe, but it can be practiced safely.


377  (F 666)

Jun 26, 2009, 2:46 PM
Post #117 of 207 (1490 views)
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Re: [pkasdorf] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydiving is risky, but there are a few things you can do to lower your risk.

Just doing conservative non swoop landings away from the crowd can improve your odds hugely.

I land like a 747 and I'll gladly land out if the LZ looks too crowded, like during a big boogie with multiple loads landing at once.

I could still die skydiving, but I try to look at the stats and avoid the optional behaviors that result in injuries and fatalities.

We all have to exit an aircraft to skydive, but we don't all have to do hook turn landings.

377


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #118 of 207 (1482 views)
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Re: [polarbear] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree.

I think my problem with statements like "you can do everything right and still die" comes off as giving more weight to negligible variables. In my opinion, If you are really doing EVERYTHING right, then the chances of death would be negligible. Unfortunately, humans are not perfect and don't always do everything right

Example: Landing in a busy LZ, when landing 50 yards to the side would likely minimize the risk of a canopy collision to a insignificant value.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jun 26, 2009, 5:24 PM
Post #119 of 207 (1461 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If I do EVERYTHING right, I will not die.

If I never accidentally run a stop sign or red light, I minimize my risk of having a MVA. If I never get distracted and turn into an intersection without checking traffic I also minimize that risk.. Unsure

The thing is that.... EVERY experienced driver has made those mistakes. Most of the time those mistakes result in the passenger yelling "stop, dude.... red light" or the driver realizing they just fucked up, or another driver blaring a horn to focus your attention....right?

If you've NEVER made a mistake driving a vehicle, you will. If you think you'll NEVER make a mistake skydiving you're naive. Focus more on realizing and preparing that you WILL fuck up and be prepared to be dynamic.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #120 of 207 (1446 views)
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Re: [labrys] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you think you'll NEVER make a mistake skydiving you're naive. Focus more on realizing and preparing that you WILL fuck up and be prepared to be dynamic.

Great advice. Is this directed at me?


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 26, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #121 of 207 (1446 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Example: if you have a correctly routed chest strap, what are the chances that it will come undone and you will fall out of your harness? The percentage is insignificant.

Which is why the question really is, what are the chances you'll screw up the chest strap routing? Our buddies occasionally catch us making this mistake and allow us to correct.

Landing just off is a funny one - at Elsinore you get loads where everyone takes that same step for safety, thus negating the gain and making it better to land in the main grass.


surfbum5412  (A 49444)

Jun 26, 2009, 7:26 PM
Post #122 of 207 (1441 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Which is why the question really is, what are the chances you'll screw up the chest strap routing?

None. Dude, are still on here? Go away. Every time you open your mouth, you pull the most random far-stretched BS out of the air that is completely irrelevant.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jun 26, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #123 of 207 (1433 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Great advice. Is this directed at me?

Yes and no... It's directed at me and you and anyone else and everyone else. You didn't post anything that was a direct link if that's what you're asking.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jun 26, 2009, 7:49 PM
Post #124 of 207 (1430 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
None. Dude, are still on here? Go away. Every time you open your mouth, you pull the most random far-stretched BS out of the air that is completely irrelevant.

Uh huh.... it's kinda like he suggested people occasionally fuck up by accident. We all know that NEVER happens, eh? No one EVER misroutes a chest strap. No one EVER forgets leg straps. No one EVER forgets to don a rig. No one EVER busts a stop sign..... No one ever makes a mistake.... Crazy


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 26, 2009, 8:01 PM
Post #125 of 207 (1428 views)
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Re: [surfbum5412] Skydiving is risky but safe [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Which is why the question really is, what are the chances you'll screw up the chest strap routing?

None. Dude, are still on here? Go away. Every time you open your mouth, you pull the most random far-stretched BS out of the air that is completely irrelevant.

Well, it's clear you're never going to get it, but others still read this stuff. If you think the chances of you making an error are none, you're deluding yourself. A great example is load one on Saturday or Sunday morning at a big boogie.

Talk about far stretched BS pulled out of thin air:

Quote:
Example: Landing in a busy LZ, when landing 50 yards to the side would likely minimize the risk of a canopy collision to a insignificant value.


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