Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Danger, Will Robinson

 

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flyhi  (D License)

Aug 21, 2001, 12:55 PM
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Danger, Will Robinson Can't Post

We routinely takeoff with the King Air's door open. Two situations come to mind:

1) No 2 engine failure immediately after takeoff. Nose yaws right; pilot counters by putting in left pedal. Since aircraft will not initially be in trim, the airflow will divert through the open door and the King Air will act like a giant parachute causing the nose, with both inputs, to whip around to the left. Possible stall/cartwheel?

b) Somewhere below 1000 feet, inadvertent activation of reserve parachute, deploys out the door with attached skydiver still belted in with no chance to release the belt or 'chute. Result?

Waddayathink?



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 21, 2001, 2:16 PM
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Yep

"Gonna need...some cream for ya ass"-Chef/South Park
Clay


Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Aug 21, 2001, 2:32 PM
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Situation one seems like the Twin Otter Crash at Perris around 1990. That one was a tradegy.....

Lets see how people know the details about that one......
And those who do know about it, know why seatbelts are manditory for take off.

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Aug 21, 2001, 3:13 PM
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The situation is actually quite a bit different, being that, according to the NTSB, the pilot of the aircraft reacted incorrectly and was the final link in the chain that caused the crash.

You can read the report at; http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14468&key=1

That particular crash however is, I believe, why we all now wear seat belts. It had always been in the FAR, but until that particular accident the FAA looked the other way when it came to skydiving ops.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Aug 21, 2001, 3:42 PM
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I was under the impression that they had said that if the door was closed then a few more people would have lived or would have been less severly injured since they would not have thrown from the plane as it flipped. Also I thought that it was determined that a few people were injured not by the crash but by things flying around inside the plane as it crashed, helmets, cameras, bodies, ect. Correct me if I'm wrong.....

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


Michele  (B 26874)

Aug 21, 2001, 4:53 PM
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Re: Danger, Will Robinson [In reply to] Can't Post

Just an observation: at Perris, the door is always - always - shut when we take off, and we must be belted in. We also must wear our helmets on take off. We open the door and unbelt and unhelmet after a certain height -I think it's 1500, but I am not sure. I just watch the more experienced jumpers and do as they do regarding this. There is a sign on the wall, and it clearly states these requirements.

I don't think I would like taking off with the door open, and unbelted.

just my observations....

ciel bleu-
Michele


"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Aug 21, 2001, 6:24 PM
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Not really true on all counts, Michelle. There are plenty of people at Perris (as well as everywhere else) that do not wear helmets or else just don't put one on for takeoff. Same for seatbelts. The door is now closed, true, but this was not always the case. Still, since that Perris Otter crash there has been a lot more instances of people practicing safer inflight practices.

Chuck



skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 21, 2001, 6:32 PM
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Paul, I am always impressed with how you can find this stuff....

Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
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Aug 21, 2001, 6:41 PM
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As you know in training, they always tell us to put our helmets on, but as I started jumping on my own, and watching half of the jumpers in the plane never put their helmets on, I got lax on it too. Then one day, a friend who has been jumping for 20 years leaned over to me when he saw this, and as he was taking his helmet off at 1000', said to me, "are you gonna be cool, or are you gonna be safe?" I've put it on ever since then.

Andrea

hmmm, thinking of a new tag...any suggestions?


Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Aug 21, 2001, 7:18 PM
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He was probally there.....

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


FallinWoman  (C 32269)

Aug 21, 2001, 7:26 PM
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Re: Danger, Will Robinson [In reply to] Can't Post

We take off with the door shut (most of the time) and we have to either have our helmets on and secured, or secured to our chest straps. I guess this would eliminate the flying debris that could cause injury.



Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Aug 21, 2001, 7:29 PM
Post #12 of 27 (2005 views)
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The door -may- have played some small part in one or two of the stats, but from what I've been told most injuries were the result of people and stuff being thrown about the cabin. Most ending up in a pile toward the front.

Nope, I wasn't there. It predates my skydiving life by a bit.

I don't think I'd ever have the stones to ask the folks that actually were there or survived the crash. A bit too gruesome an image for me to want to have somebody have to replay in his head.

It just seems like a really tacky thing to bring it up to them personally.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 21, 2001, 8:23 PM
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In reply to:
I don't think I would like taking off with the door open, and unbelted.
I don't mind having the door open - especially on these hot summer afternoons in Florida.. At my home DZ we have a Caravan, and we always take off with the door open.. I enjoy sitting back by the door watching as we climb.. I don't often get to sit right next to the door - it's primarily the videographers there so they can get video of takeoff and some shots out the door at various altitudes for the videos..

I do wear my seatbelt every time.. At all the DZ's that I frequent, not using a seatbelt is not tolerated.. If somebody is not using one, somebody will surely point it out and correct the situation.. In my opinion, to not wear a seatbelt for the takeoff and initial climb is downright stupid..

Mike



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 21, 2001, 8:30 PM
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In reply to:
Then one day, a friend who has been jumping for 20 years leaned over to me when he saw this, and as he was taking his helmet off at 1000', said to me, "are you gonna be cool, or are you gonna be safe?" I've put it on ever since then.
I agree 100%....but, there are exceptions.. I'm sure you noticed that I don't wear my helmet during takeoff.. The extra weight of the camera setup, and the position of it, causes a much greater risk of serious neck injury in a crash.. I feel that the risk of a head injury is less than that of a neck injury in a crash..

One thing that REALLY pisses me off is people that don't secure their helmets - whether they are wearing it or not.. I ALWAYS attach my helmet to my chest strap(I loop the helmet chin strap and chin cup through my chest strap) so that it will not become flying debris in the event of a crash.. If I am not jumping a camera, but just a regular helmet, I always make sure it is fastened when I put it on.. If I recall correctly, after the Perris crash, a camera helmet was recovered that had blood from 8 or 9 different people on it.. It was just a projectile, zooming around the cabin hitting many people..

Mike



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 21, 2001, 8:36 PM
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In reply to:
The door -may- have played some small part in one or two of the stats, but from what I've been told most injuries were the result of people and stuff being thrown about the cabin. Most ending up in a pile toward the front.
Hey, Paul - tell me this.. What do you do with your camera helmet during takeoff? Do you wear it? Secure it to something?

I have had this discussion with many people, and the general concensus seems to be secure it with something(chest strap, seatbelt), but don't wear it because of the additional weight and sometimes funky weight distribution.. I have, of course, run into people that don't wear it or secure it - and refuse to do either.. I'm just kinda curious what a professional such as yourself does.. I know most, if not all, of the videographers at my home DZ secure their helmet with a seatbelt..

Mike



skymedic  (C 33561)

Aug 21, 2001, 8:37 PM
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Re: Danger, Will Robinson [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike were you at titus ville this weekend?

Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 22, 2001, 1:20 PM
Post #17 of 27 (1944 views)
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Re: Danger, Will Robinson [In reply to] Can't Post

1) No 2 engine failure immediately after takeoff. Nose yaws right; pilot counters by putting in left pedal. Since aircraft will not initially be in trim, the airflow will divert through the open door and the King Air will act like a giant parachute causing the nose, with both inputs, to whip around to the left. Possible stall/cartwheel?

Unlikely with that much adverse yaw. Keep in mind that this happens, on a much lesser scale, on jump run, when a tremendous amount of drag is added to one side of the plane while power is pulled back. Every jump ship I've jumped so far has rudder authority to spare in that situation.

b) Somewhere below 1000 feet, inadvertent activation of reserve parachute, deploys out the door with attached skydiver still belted in with no chance to release the belt or 'chute.

Even with seatbelt released it may not be survivable. It happened to our king air, and the student (and everyone on the plane) were lucky to escape with their lives.

Also consider c) - you fall out of the plane at 100 feet because the door is open, or d) the left main landing gear kicks up a piece of metal just before rotation, and it comes flying in the door.


-bill von


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 22, 2001, 1:31 PM
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"Unlikely with that much adverse yaw. Keep in mind that this happens, on a much lesser scale, on jump run, when a tremendous amount of drag is added to one side of the plane while power is pulled back. Every jump ship I've jumped so far has rudder authority to spare in that situation."

Well...if this happens on T/O with a full load it will be ugly. I dont think the areodynamics of the door being open is going to change a whole lot. I lost an engine while cruising at 5,000 ft in a Travle Air. It just scared me more than anything as it went from cruise speed to zero because of a clogged fuel tank vent. Even at cruise settings it caused a significant yaw to occur. It's gonna be ugly at full throttle with a loaded aircraft. Hope ya got enough runway to put it back down!



"Gonna need...some cream for ya ass"-Chef/South Park
Clay


jumpervali  (D 19338)

Aug 22, 2001, 3:04 PM
Post #19 of 27 (1915 views)
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Ask the pilot what he wants. He is the one who has the final say so with regard to far (91.7- b), this has to do with stopping the flight due to unsafe structural condition. If he wants the door closed for takeoffs close it. Also the pilot is the top dog with regard to seatbelts too (far 91.107). If he said keep them on till 10,000 you must do it. :-(
The FAA will back up the pilot with federal laws if you give him any grief, as stated in far (91.11) interference with crew members.

We always keep the door shut till 1000 ft., belts come off then the door opens. It would be a bad day if your pilotchute gets out and your belted in.

jumpervali



Premier quade  (D 22635)
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Aug 22, 2001, 3:59 PM
Post #20 of 27 (1906 views)
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For takeoff, my camera helmet sits on my lap and is belted in via the chin strap. I would NOT suggest wearing a camera helmet on your head for takeoff. Looping it through the chest strap might be ok, but I feel more comfortable with it belted in as there's less chance of it flopping about during an aborted takeoff of worse. If it's a "light" load and I can give the helmet it's own seatbelt, I'll sometimes do that, but it happens so rarely that sometimes when the opportunity presents itself I don't take advantage of it out of habit.

I remove my seatbelt at about 950ft so that I can bring the helmet up to my ear and listen to the Dytter.


Paul

futurecam.com/skydive.html


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 22, 2001, 6:25 PM
Post #21 of 27 (1890 views)
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I use my chest strap because of the location of the seatbelts in the aircraft at my home DZ.. They are attached where the floor and wall meet, and not very long.. We loop them through the leg straps - and there's not usually enough to attach my helmet and keep it in a safe enough location for the camera(during normal circumstances).. If there is an open seat belt, that's where my helmet goes.. With it attached to my chest strap, I can get close enough to hear my pro-track at 1k..

I'm glad to hear that most people share the same views on this issue.. It pisses me off to no end to see people with camera helmets sitting in their lap, but not secured to anything.. Hell, any helmet for that matter.. It'll just become a projectile in an accident..

Mike



wildblue  (D 26027)

Aug 23, 2001, 8:56 PM
Post #22 of 27 (1844 views)
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In reply to:
It pisses me off to no end to see people with camera helmets sitting in their lap, but not secured to anything..


Ask them (nicely) to secure it. Exaplin to them you don't want it hitting you in the head in case of a crash. I'll bet most people just haven't thought about it. If it's blazing hot, sometimes I'll let my knee wear my helmet, but it's still buckled around my leg

Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 23, 2001, 9:13 PM
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In reply to:
Ask them (nicely) to secure it. Exaplin to them you don't want it hitting you in the head in case of a crash. I'll bet most people just haven't thought about it.
That usually works, but not always.. When it doesn't, I make sure to explain my reasoning to everybody in the plane...then the whole plane usually pressures that person into securing their helmet..

Mike



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 24, 2001, 8:54 AM
Post #24 of 27 (1820 views)
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"then the whole plane usually pressures that person into securing their helmet.."

Good on your drop zone! Nothing wrong with a little peer pressure to make things safer. Often, thats the only way it will happen regularly. I say make it a point to do at least one thing every weekend that makes your DZ a little safer. Make it an "Atmosphere of Safety." Many good suggestions on this thread.
Please secure your shit in the plane. I was in a helicopter crash once where me and about 15 grunts were all piled on top of each other on the floor of a UH-60. The dumbass pilot got into brown out (caused by dust from the rotor wash) and was of such little skill that he couldn't hover with the instruments. I dont know how far off the ground we got but all of a sudden he dumped the damn thing on it's side. The ONLY injuries that occured were from rucks, weapons, and all manner of other crap flying around in the cabin. None too serious thankfully.



"Don't give a F$#ck if I'm comin or leavin"-Pappa Roach
Clay


parduhn  (D License)

Aug 24, 2001, 1:07 PM
Post #25 of 27 (1807 views)
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Seems like a video guy wearing a camera helmet for takeoff is asking for a broken neck in the event of a crash. I appreciate the ones that secure the helmet with the seatbelt though.

When I jumped at Eloy at the last New Year's Boogie it seemed most were had seatbelts and helmets on until 1000'. Compliance seems to be related to how clearly the dz expects you to abide by the rules. Skydive Arizona seems to lead the way in published procedures and explanations, excellent resource.

Sam



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