Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
Frame "skip" HC5

 


0013  (B 93032)

Jun 14, 2009, 2:05 AM
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Frame "skip" HC5 Can't Post

Hi Guys,

I've been jumping my HC5 for about 2 months now and never had a problem.

2 weeks ago i had some issues with the camera "losing" roughly 1 second of data occasionaly. This happened on tape and after dubbing it is visible some data is actually missing.

I thought it was due to the rig i borrowed after my reserve. That rig had a magnetic slider holder.

Yesterday on my own rig without any magnetic parts i had no issues.

Today on the first training jump on the exit it occured again. It usually occurs around or just after exit.

The camera is top mounted and is operated with a Hype-eye D pro. The camera is naked ( no box, no condom )

I tried switching to a new tape to see if the issue is still there and it didn't solve the problem. I now switched tape to another batch to see what this does.

EDIT: Using another tape of a different production batch did not help.

Can it be moisture, temperature or electronics ?

Has anyone else ever seen this problem, or better yet. solved it ?

Greetings from a rainy dropzone in Belgium,

Leon


(This post was edited by 0013 on Jun 14, 2009, 3:45 AM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 14, 2009, 5:01 AM
Post #2 of 17 (955 views)
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Re: [0013] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

You mean it gets stuck on one frame for a bit? That's just dirty heads, use a cleaningtape.


0013  (B 93032)

Jun 14, 2009, 6:22 AM
Post #3 of 17 (947 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Saskia,

Yes, it fits your description, only when capturing a sequence it gets recognised as 2 different sequences.

Isn't cleaning after 2 months of use since new and 4 new tapes a bit fast for dirty heads ?

I'll clean it anyway. I seem have enoudh time for that today. :)


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jun 14, 2009, 9:07 AM
Post #4 of 17 (927 views)
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Re: [0013] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Isn't cleaning after 2 months of use since new and 4 new tapes a bit fast for dirty heads ?

Possibly. However, it can happen if you switch brands of tape. Best advice is to choose one brand of tape and stick with it.

ltdiver


aphid  (D 535)

Jun 19, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: [dragon2] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You mean it gets stuck on one frame for a bit? That's just dirty heads, use a cleaningtape.

Actually, I respectfully disagree (and desperately wish it was only that simple!)

Over the winter/spring, 4 of us at Eloy, all shooting HC's (5's, 7's and 9's) compared notes at various times over drinks. We ALL are having exactly the same issue.

Unfortunately, cleaning doesn't do a damned thing, and yes, it was our first (and obvious) guess based on experience.

We compared our various issues to see if there was any consistency or if a correlation could be deduced between us.

Sadly no.

These "freezes" seem to happen on a purely random basis and like the OP, not on every jump. Doesn't matter if it's on the exit, belly-fly, Tandems, freefly, freefall, opening... heck even in CRW. Also no relation to the in-camera settings for focus type, output settings, record settings, add-on lens or not, steady-shot or not, Hypeye Pro or Lanc remotes. Nada. And believe me, we puzzled it for quite some time over more than session.

Two of us fly video for World Class teams, and between us, we probably have collectively 13,000+ video jumps, so needless to say, we have dropped the HC's for all competition.

If somebody out there is determining something different than the four of us, I (WE) would sure appreciate answers/solutions to this problem.

John (for Bruce, Gord & Sergei)

Edited to add: I do have a Hypeye mini-D remote (no button or circuitry). I may give that a try to see if that has any positive effect.


(This post was edited by aphid on Jun 19, 2009, 11:28 AM)


980  (D 980)

Jun 19, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

this has been discussed before in other threads

the issue is a dropped frame

due to the compression system used on HDV where a dropped frame can result in losing 8 frames if you drop the right (or wrong) frame, dropped frames become far more noticeable

the compression on DV is different in that as far as I know the compression is only one frame at a time compressed, whereas HDV compresses several (I think 8) frames together

according to DSE, your best shot is to use higher grade tape, as that minimizes the chances of dropped frames

the first tape I shot on my HC5 was one of the more expensive Sony HD tapes and I don't think I dropped any frames on that one

subsequently I have been using the blue wrapper Sony tapes and in 25 - 30 tapes that I have recorded on 3 HC5s I have seen dropped frames less than 10 times

So I would say try a better grade of tape.

I was under the impression that for competition jumps the serious guys always use 2 camcorders, so I would think the odds of having a dropped frame at the same time on both camcorders would be negligible?

hope that helps


(This post was edited by 980 on Jun 19, 2009, 11:39 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Jun 19, 2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have over 300 jumps with the HC5. I only use the Sony HD miniDV tapes and have never had any dropped frames.

Oh yeah, I never reuse tape at all.


(This post was edited by beowulf on Jun 19, 2009, 1:02 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jun 19, 2009, 12:05 PM
Post #8 of 17 (821 views)
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

The dropped/freeze frame is purely a HD thing, if you shoot in SD you will not have this problem (but you get the blocks/stripes if the heads are dirty, for tandemvids I strongly prefer the freezeframe lol). also, some tapes are just no good right from the start or start out good (1 tandemvid) then freezeframa, so not only clean the heads but don't use that particular tape anymore too, plus of course sticking to one brand of tape and not re-using tapes prevent most issues, this together solves all my HC5 problems always, I still jump mine for competitions.

I know one guy who bought a HC5, bought a (one) Sony HD tape, and because said tape was so expensive he kept reusing it over and over again, funny part was he wasn't even shooting in HD, so he got blocks within 2 weeks of buying the camera Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 19, 2009, 1:31 PM
Post #9 of 17 (807 views)
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

>Over the winter/spring, 4 of us at Eloy, all shooting HC's (5's, 7's and 9's)
>compared notes at various times over drinks. We ALL are having exactly
>the same issue.

Interesting. I have never had any such issue with the HC1 - and I don't use a box with it.


PharmerPhil  (D 23899)

Jun 19, 2009, 1:46 PM
Post #10 of 17 (805 views)
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Over the winter/spring, 4 of us at Eloy,..

We compared our various issues to see if there was any consistency or if a correlation could be deduced between us.

Maybe the correlation has to do with Eloy. Dryness? Dust? Static electricity?

I haven't had any problems with my HC-5 or A1U, and I use Sony's basic consumer tapes. I did get a couple of drop-outs on my V1U at a non-skydiving shoot (fortunately I shot enough b-roll to cover it). But considering the hours I have on all these machines, I can't really complain.


aphid  (D 535)

Jun 19, 2009, 5:41 PM
Post #11 of 17 (780 views)
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Re: [PharmerPhil] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

A few to address:
Quote:
I was under the impression that for competition jumps the serious guys always use 2 camcorders
Yes, that is correct. It has become a standard since I did it in Spain in 2001 (the rest of them looked at me as if I was on glue back then)

Quote:
I would think the odds of having a dropped frame at the same time on both camcorders would be negligible?

Ummm... for competition you can only use use video from one of the 2 (or 3 or 4) sources. Air-air events require a seamless time-code for judging. Pretty basic stuff if you know competition rules...

Quote:
I would say try a better grade of tape.

I personally use the Sony HD tapes. Sergei uses the blue Sony's.

Quote:
Oh yeah, I never reuse tape at all.

Neither do we.

Quote:
Maybe the correlation has to do with Eloy. Dryness? Dust? Static electricity?

Well, the OP was from Holland (cool and wet), and I also jump 6 months a year in western Canada, (cool and sometimes wet), so I don't think that is a factor either.

And that is why we are still puzzled.

Lots of good suggestions, but I just don't think they apply.

Any more ideas?

John


(This post was edited by aphid on Jun 19, 2009, 5:44 PM)


0013  (B 93032)

Jun 21, 2009, 2:04 AM
Post #12 of 17 (726 views)
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Guys,

I've updated my system by using a neoprene condom and using HD tape instead of the regular (orange) "premium" from sony.

I only use sony tape and always new tapes.

This weekend's competition ( Cold and wet) i've only had one dropout in 6 jumps.

A fellow video flyer mentioned a memory issue with the HC5 while coding HDV, He switched to recording standard DV and said that solved it for him. I. switched to DV recording now and hope to see the problem disappear. I'll keep you updated when i know more.
I also hope it stops raining so we can get out and play :)

Greetings


Feeblemind  (D 28621)

Jun 21, 2009, 9:19 AM
Post #13 of 17 (699 views)
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Re: [0013] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Just as a question (you all have far more video jumps than I)

Do you guys "Seat" your tapes? Fast forward to the end and then rewind before recording? I had issues with my HC5 dropping frames occasionally. A friend (a guy that rips cameras apart and rebuilds then) suggested I "seat" the tapes. Since I began this process I have no longer dropped frames.


aphid  (D 535)

Jun 21, 2009, 4:37 PM
Post #14 of 17 (678 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you guys "Seat" your tapes?

Never heard of that before. Odd.

John


aphid  (D 535)

Jun 21, 2009, 4:40 PM
Post #15 of 17 (677 views)
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Re: [0013] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
switched to recording standard DV and said that solved it for him

Do you mean recording in standard-def as opposed to hi-def? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hi-def camera?

John


PharmerPhil  (D 23899)

Jun 21, 2009, 5:02 PM
Post #16 of 17 (672 views)
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Re: [Feeblemind] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you guys "Seat" your tapes?

I used to do that in the old days of analog audio cassette tapes. It definitely made a difference then. However, modern video tape recorders wrap the tape around a helically-scanned head, and use a pinch roller to maintain tension across the head (old analog cassette tapes had the pinch roller only and operated at much slower speeds). So I never felt it was necessary or tried it with DV/HDV video tapes. With analog, non-helically-scanned tape, it only affected tape speed and so created wow and flutter, not drop-outs.

I could see how with modern helically-scanned tapes it would cause the data channel to totally miss the head if it did change speed (i.e. drop-outs). This shouldn't be much different between DV and HDV, except that with HDV, or any other long-GOP format, the drop-out is much longer (1/30-second vs. 1/2-second) and hence more noticeable.

I won't say it doesn't make a difference, but I haven't tried it or felt compelled to try it yet. I can see the theory behind it though and would adopt it if it was proven to make a difference.


(This post was edited by PharmerPhil on Jun 21, 2009, 5:03 PM)


0013  (B 93032)

Jun 22, 2009, 3:33 PM
Post #17 of 17 (626 views)
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Re: [aphid] Frame "skip" HC5 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Do you mean recording in standard-def as opposed to hi-def? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of buying a hi-def camera?

John
-----
For commercial use i would say yes. but for training and especially for competition the risk of half a second of lost data is far worse then the reduced quality.

most of my camera work is for debriefing/scoring and therefore standard DV is a valid option.

I chose the HC5 for it's -proven- track record ... durable, reliable and user friendly ( top loading tape, Firewire on the camera itself,... ) the High definition part wasn't that important to me.

It is a shame i haven't had a chance to jump it in DV settings because the competition got cancelled ...

The seating not something new to me. i used to do this with my previous cam but haven't done it on this one. I do not know why i did it or quit doing it...

Something for the future to try i guess ...



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